Translated material
Saprykin VS Udaltsov
At a crossroads. 88% of Muscovites, 58% - in the whole country* know that mass rallies "For honest elections!" Were held in the capital in the capital. 37% believe that falsification, dissatisfaction with power, life hardships and the need to declare their civil position were the reason for the protest. Only 3% of sociologists surveyed joined the position of state propagandists who are convinced that "people paid." How will the protest movement will develop and how the New Times was argued by members of the rally organizing committee, Left Front leader Sergei Udaltsov, and journalist Yuri Saprykin 
Yuri Saprykin: All are cheerful, cheerful, everyone supports each other. Nemtsov says that Udaltsov has the full right to stand in the fountain. Sergei and I are both townspeople and both angry. I suspect that Sergei is even more than me.
Prospects
Three months of protests, and you continue to repeat the same text of the resolution from the stage from the stage. You have a strategy, a roadmap: today-this, in a week-then, in two months we take part in that, in the fall-all in municipalities and mayors, and so on?
Sergey Udaltsov: Strategy is a long period, a big goal. We have a great goal - new Russia, free, with honest elections. We went out to Bolotnaya, on Sakharov, until the result we achieved the global. Although there are small victories, and there are many of them. There is a battle, like in the ring: we are the forces of good, and there is the forces of evil - thieves, crooks, scammers, falsifiers. We exchange blows. In December, the first round was held, we inhabited well on them. They recovered, struck us, before May 7 it would be very good to knock them out. How? There are only two effective methods in the world - a mass strike and mass standing in the square. With a strike is now more difficult, very weak trade unions. Mass standing in the square is what is in our power.
Yuri, are your hipsters ready for mass standing in the square?
Saprykin: Let's about standing separately, about hipsters separately and about the strategy separately. No hipsters exist - this is all a media invention, created not without the participation of a magazine entrusted to me, but nevertheless it is all Fuflo. This is not a revolution of hipsters and not a revolution of a creative class. This is one of the myths that is being introduced specifically to show the country that there are some people in narrow jeans with fat are furious, and you guys are sitting in the Urals and for some reason should suffer because of them. The social composition of the protest movement is the same as the whole society. There are students there, there are pensioners, there are workers, there is an intelligentsia. To the question of standing. Here, it seems to me, many are stopping this: standing is effective when there is a clear alternative. That is, we go against Yanukovych, but for Yushchenko. We go against Shevardnadze, but for Saakashvili. Against Askar Akayev - for Rosa Otunbaev. We have existed perfectly for three months without a clear leader, but I suspect that if we are talking about mass mobilization of hundreds of thousands of people for a multi -day protest rally, then it will be impossible for us to do without this issue. It is impossible to say: guys, let's go for three days, cancel your vacations, do not go anywhere to the May ... so that what? Lack of an answer to the question "so what?" It stops a lot. This answer must be found. It will not be found by May 7, it will be found by November 7.
The strategy is to go in a few ways, there is no Leninist type party here, combat, well -mobilized. Udaltsov has their own supporters, Nemtsov has their own, but 90% of these people on their own mind, and each makes decisions. Someone is imprisoned for municipal advice-it means that someone to write in them to write leaflets, someone likes them to put them at night, and someone to sit in the State Duma and conduct consultations on the issue of changes in the electoral legislation. All people should be engaged in what is organic for them, but we have one goal. 
Saprykin: The only thing I insist on is to honestly always speak with people. No need to be cunning, do not say: guys, let's go for a walk around the Kremlin, knowing that Fesseos with machine guns and Chechen riot police are standing around the Kremlin at that time. Honesty is the best policy.
Rules of the game
Many have, Sergei, claims in connection with the events on Pushkinskaya Square. You had an agreement with the authorities: a rally and that's it. You de facto urged people not to leave the square after the end of the rally. Do you now think that you did the right thing?
Udaltsov: According to the law, we have a rally, a mass event that must be coordinated with the authorities. Standing in the square, even with a tent, sorry, this was a gap in the legislation. Already Platonov from the Moscow City Duma said: we will improve the law on rallies. Maybe they will write that standing with the tent must be coordinated. But so far this is not.
You live in real life, in a rather strict regime, deal with people for whom the institution of agreements is important. You went to violate these agreements and thereby set up the rest.
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Udaltsov: We are not saying: "Sticks in our hands - and went to riot police." We are against this. But to coordinate everything with the authorities with the authorities - this means falling into their trap. These are experienced, treacherous people, they probe what we are ready for, what is not. They agreed to Bolotnaya - everyone, next time they say: “Go to the worship of the mountain. Well, you are all normal, the last time we agreed so cool. What are the problems? Why do you need any difficulties? " And all the time there is such a struggle all the time, and somewhere we also need to squeeze our space of freedom a little, otherwise we will be driven out for moza, and the radical part of the protest will no longer listen to us, but it will go to smash, destroy. And how will it end?
Yuri, you represent a more moderate protest wing. From your point of view, where is the limit of an agreement with the authorities, which many of your supporters do not recognize as legitimate?
Saprykin: I think you will agree with me that the key factor in protest is its mass. 500 people - no one will notice this. 5 thousand - they can still be dispersed. 100 thousand - they cannot be dispersed. 500 thousand - the police join them. That's all. And in order for many different people to go to the square, you need, firstly, sorry for the expression, they can’t scare them, and you do not need to pile on them over the one that they are ready to take away. In other words, people need to offer the forms for which they are ready, in which they can now express their disagreement and discontent. There should be many of these forms.
Agreed. But people come to your rallies less and less people.
Udaltsov: People have been accumulating their negativity for a long time in relation to the authorities, someone for years, someone in recent months. Accumulated. People understood, we need to do something, we must go out. In December they came out - fine. But here I am, for example, for more than one year in this process. And I understand that this is a marathon distance; Once I went out to the square, and everything has changed - this is very rare. We have a long job. The bulk of our citizens has their own affairs - work, family, a lot of other problems. They do not want, Yuri says correctly, become professional revolutionaries. That is, to quit everything and devote yourself to the struggle with the forces of evil for free Russia. So we went out once - oh, there are a lot of us. Cool. The authorities will react now. We left the second time - even more. Well, everything, the authorities have nowhere to go, the elections will be honest, the second round ... And they in response - dopps and 64%. 
Saprykin: Let's remember December 4, when 5-7 thousand reached pure ponds, and hundreds have come out of the strength for years ...
Road map
Nevertheless, I would like to return to the question of a constructive program that has been waiting for a long time, but it is still gone. So far you are for all the good against everything bad. And if more specifically?
Saprykin: This reproach, in general, is fair. The problem is that the opposition, as you know, does not have a leader, and also desperately lacks the chief editor. Because in some kind of media sense, in the sense of communication with people, there a lot falls in a dramatic way. What I mean. People stopped going out because they had such a vague feeling that the leaders of the protest movement, they play some kind of game. They, these leaders, are against Putin, but they are for becoming Putin themselves. People get the feeling that they are used, the guys are actually necessary for the party to be registered and that they are allowed to be allowed into the Duma. And for this they are really not ready to go out. And in part, this is why the intensity, intensity and mass are reduced.
At the same time, I am not sure that this problem is solved by some specific plan, roadmap or something else. In fact, this movement, it does not exist at all on Bolotnaya, it is also a myth that is invented by the “Time” program or the administration of the Presidential Administration. This movement occurs everywhere. In Yaroslavl, in the mayor’s elections, the candidate who actively opposes United Russia is now 40%. There will be a second round. Why are we not standing in Yaroslavl now, we don’t take pictures with this guy and don’t say: man, we are for you, and we are also for everyone who is behind you? In Nizhny Novgorod, a demonstration was brutally dispersed, and activists actually forced the court to release these guys. In Kazan, a fifty -year -old man is cruelly, savagely killed cops. Here we are for him.
So why are you not there - not in Kazan, not in Nizhny Novgorod, not in Yaroslavl?
Saprykin: Because I will now go to the Krasnopresnensky court for Lesha Kozlov to beat *** This conversation was recorded in the editorial office on March 13. Two days later, on March 15, Alexei Kozlov was sentenced: five years of the colony - read on page 8 ..
Udaltsov: Can I explain? Very different people gathered in the organizing committee of the rally. And when we are asked when we publish our general economic program, I say: we would be happy, but the general economic program to me, Nemtsov, Navalny, Ryzhkov is very difficult.
The question is not in the economic program, the question is, if you follow Comrade Lenin, always about one thing - about the authorities, about how to take it?
Udaltsov: strikes and rallies.
Saprykin: It seems to me that just these hundreds of thousands of people who went to Sakharov and Bolotnaya, they are absolutely uninteresting in the question when we take power. They do not want Putin, but they do not see which alternative, not on the ideological, not on the software, but at the human level we offer. No program, no plan will give anything. It is necessary to withdraw the country from Putin ... 
Udaltsov: the Maidan and the strike is a technology, it also does not need to be discarded, it also answers the question "how?" But if you take it deeper ... A civilian council was formed in Moscow, such a civil movement of Moscow. This association is no longer only a VIP person in the organizing committee, these are equity holders and ecologists. It is necessary to build an alternative network. What is Moscow Civil Council? Someone fights with development, someone against scams in the housing and communal services areas, these are small topics, but if we unite all this, and the superstructure will be-the struggle for honest power and honest elections. We have a single center, we track where they demolish the house, where they beat whom, and we react. They have Putin - the president, they have Sobyanin - the mayor, and we have a civilian council of Moscow, and we work for all reasons. And the same structures should be at least in large cities. And this, it seems to me, is the path that answers the question "how?" An alternative network, in fact, is the beginnings of alternative power.
Saprykin: We must fit for everyone who suffers from this power. We must get to people whom the Internet does not finish.
Udaltsov: We have a program of electronic democracy: they have chosen Putin, let's get a national government on the Internet, let's recover our supporters in municipalities. But these elections in the fall ... Now, until May 7, until Putin has entered the post legitimately, we have a chance to swing the situation in the right direction, peacefully, but to swing, and we must use this chance. People from the Urals are writing to me now: the idea of the “Million Millions” is cool, they are ready to go even for their money ... If 150-200 thousand are released. Before the inauguration of Putin, for him it will be such a signal that can no longer turn away from. And is it bad?
Emerged citizens need an understandable business plan so that they can plan their time, their investment in protest.
Saprykin: There are goals. The goal is rallies, the goal is work on changing the electoral legislation, which is now being carried out by Ryzhkov -Udalsov. The method - these city councils, alternative meetings, the method - this is the cultivation of new politicians and future candidates by entering the elections in the municipal, city, regional, any other level. All these are methods. It seems to me that the main problem is not the lack of a plan, but the wrong communication: there is not enough feedback. There are thousands of groups on Facebook, there are different blogs, but, it seems to me, it is necessary to make a common website of the civil movement where everything could be accumulated - from ideas to the schedule of protests. But I would not share people: this is a creative class, and these are homeless people. We will find a place for everyone. We are now in the search, we will look.
Mistakes
Saprykin: But I want to say that we had one serious mistake: we were confused on March 4, in an honest vote, all efforts, all forces were thrown on it. And on March 5, there was a feeling: Putin deceived you, but in some cunning way he deceived you that he was not visible right away. But there were tremendous violations during the campaign, to which we simply did not react.
Udaltsov: Still, in December there was the right position-to demand the transfer of the presidential election. Probably, somewhere they were mistaken, but there are no fatal mistakes. Let's not engage in self -flagellation constantly, this is very bad. So I wake up in the morning, open the Internet, again some kind of stream of dirt, sometimes I want to spit, say: “E-mine, as much as possible. Everything is tired. "
Saprykin: That's it, let's first forbid the Internet ... ( Laugh .) If serious, why did the rally on the new Arbat on March 10 suddenly get? Because there were people on stage - observers who won their little victory in their polling stations, not letting the voice on March 4. Putin won, but in the March 4 elections, suddenly we suddenly received a huge class of people who went to polling stations, were engaged in a very boring, tedious work for a day and received a completely invaluable experience of such a civil action. They felt that they were on this small section of the front. They won, and this experience will now remain with them.
Udaltsov: Now it is necessary to ensure that the law allows you to create election blocks in the elections, otherwise there will be many different small parties, and they will inflate us again.
Saprykin: Don’t bother you in these parties! There must be a wide coalition. Electoral blocks are prohibited - it means that an invisible electoral block, a virtual electoral block, must be made.
Light tomorrow
Suppose the “Million Marsh” was a success and the abstract Putin is not allowed into the abstract Kremlin. And what's next?
Udaltsov: Forms can be different. Of course, these are some negotiations at a round table or a square, this is a matter of taste, we discuss when a change in legislation is completed, when new elections to the Duma, when new elections of the president. For transition time - a transition government.
Saprykin: The main danger is that the struggle with one usurpation of power does not turn, does not seem to people an attempt to usurpation of power by another group of people. It is necessary that people understand and feel that there is a wide social force that, in fact, many problems can solve better than the vertical of power. This does not mean that it should only repair the entrances or only paint the entrances, it should act at all levels: from mass shares in Moscow to elections to the municipal advice of Nizhny Tagil. Everywhere, a united front, coordinated actions. And gradually, gradually it turns out that friends with this social force is much more interesting, and more useful, and cooler than joining the United Russia party. That's when some future candidate for mayor of Yaroslavl will be photographed with Navalny in an embrace, and not with Gryzlov, then everything will work out. А конкретные требования — это перевыборы в Государственную думу, после изменения избирательного законодательства, это выход на выборы в Мосгордуму и это, если уж избирательные законы будут изменены таким образом, как предлагается сейчас, это выборы мэра Москвы и Санкт-Петербурга. Это ближайший план.
* Опрос Фонда «Общественное мнение» от 15 января 2012 г. был проведен в 43 субъектах РФ среди жителей 100 городских и сельских населенных пунктов. В опросе участвовали 1500 человек.*