Yakovleva vs Gudkov

Two weeks after the death of Sergei Magnitsky, at the end of November 2009, two people argued at The New Times: businessman Yana Yakovleva, who herself fell under the rink of the Russian judicial system and miraculously out of it, and the State Duma deputy Gennady Gudkov, Colonel of the FSB Gudkov. Both said: the reforms of the Russian power system are necessary, the business runs from the country, the reputation of the state is below the plinth. A year has passed. The chairman of the non-profit partnership “Business Solder” Yana Yakovlev and the deputy of the State Duma of the Russian Federation Gennady Gudkov again met in the editorial office after noisy resignations to the FSIN and the promises of the president to stop “nightmare business”, after amendments to the legislation under the articles on economic crimes in the entrepreneurial community, some optimism from the series “Worse Nekud” began to be observed, which means, which means, which means that Maybe it will be better. Became? Gennady Gudkov: It got worse.

Yana Yakovleva: Yes, worse: the system simply does not notice what we say, write, are indignant.

Gudkov: And the result: in Europe, Russian business feels almost an outcast. Russian capital is constantly under suspicion. Many have already flew. I know one pretty decent entrepreneur who bought a hotel in the UK, invested $ 12 million, and she suddenly became sharply unprofitable. Naturally, he began to deal with the manager, and then he said to me: “There is such an attitude, as if I were a bandit, as if I had crushed skulls all my life. I come to court, and they look at me as a person not even the second - the third grade. And I lose all the courts. That is, when I arrive, leading to a restaurant, crying for dinners, dinners and everything else, they smile at me. But as soon as I begin to get into the business that the British are engaged in, then smiles end, they do not want to deal with Russians ... ”And this is a mass phenomenon. Although in Eastern Europe - in Serbia, Montenegro, Bulgaria - a little easier, and in other countries of Europe there is a very strict attitude.

Yakovleva: Still, it is more important what is happening inside us.

The advantages of double standards and it is important for us for “inside” that our capitalists, our nomenclature are not stored in Sberbank ...

Where? Where the children study - in England, in the USA ... It is important not because it is better for the country - for the country's economy, of course, worse, but we are safer here. On the one hand, we scold the United States and Great Britain, they are angry with us, on the other hand - children there, capital, business, assets and more. Double morality: for the population to brand the United States, and to the Americans to explain that we can’t do it otherwise, otherwise the nationalists will come to power, extremists, scumbags. “Well, we soaked you a little - this is to keep the brand in front of the country, we have it all for PR.” I know who leads these conversations ...

Yana Yakovleva is the financial director of SOFEX. The founder and chairman of the non-profit partnership “Business Solder”, created to protect entrepreneurs.

Who? I do not like to personify.

At least at what level of power? Almost any. So, this double standard from a certain point of view is useful to us in Russia. In this state of affairs, our power will never decide on mass repressions. They are afraid of sanctions closed gates to Europe.

Our officials have diplomatic passports - they do not need visas.

If they are closed tomorrow to enter families, to the capital, to the reserve sites that have already been created there, this will be a tragedy for them. And this is a powerful restraining factor.

And if not for restraining factors, would they go for it?

Gudkov: I think that there would be enough frostbitten heads. The Kremlin has many towers, there are also crazy people who could go to mass repressions.

And what's the point? You need to hold the country. The vertical of power is exhausted. It is sprinkled either in one place or in another: either the Caucasus will rise, then something does not work out with the governors, then with the police control. Constant malfunctions that increase as a lump. We need other forms of management, but in another way our vertical does not know how and does not want to.

And the tower that speaks of modernization, too?

That tower correctly says that modernization is needed, but how to conduct it in the conditions of total bureaucratic dominance, total corruption, in conditions when the best part of society, its elite, is cut off from decision -making? Political parties are removed, the deputy corps, too, regional elites, the intelligentsia, creative people - everything. The authorities have swept and is very reluctant to let new people inside. And if he lets it down, then on the principle of personal devotion. There is no political struggle, it is replaced by a hardware, nomenclature struggle that inevitably leads to the degradation of power.

Will Putin go for modernization? I think it's no longer. He had ten years for this. In an interview with the “Lada Kalina”, he said that there were practically no mistakes, everything was right.

Gennady Gudkov - deputy of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, deputy chairman of the Security Committee, deputy head of the Just Russia faction. Retired FSB Colonel.

Will he return in 2012? For Russia, it does not matter who will return in 2012-Medvedev, Putin, Sobyanin or someone else. Only one thing matters - on the wave of which the new president will come.

New redistribution and what is the business? Continues to sit under the mattress and be afraid? Yakovleva: Law enforcement officers unbelted even more.

So, after all, amendments to the legislation have been adopted? They accepted amendments in which it is written - entrepreneurs cannot be planted before the trial. The court declares: "And this is not an entrepreneur at all." And continues to plant. I can give an example: Krasnodar, my husband and wife took the building, forged the protocol of the meeting of the founders. There is so much this: the husband was imprisoned for embezzlement - supposedly he, driving a business, wasted this business. We thought that this is a waste of article for officials, but no, it turns out that the entrepreneur can also be wasted.

There is an unprecedented redistribution, and the most black, criminal methods. Otvoy of property has become a common, ordinary phenomenon. True, the business itself is to blame. When we form some social movements, parties and turn to entrepreneurs for support, they say: “We are not engaged in politics. We are engaged in the economy. ” Great guys. As soon as you ripen or, conversely, weaken, or your enemies will win - they will come to you, and your money will be their money, because our policy is an aggressive environment, hydrochloric acid in which you are floating. Sooner or later you will dissolve there.

People are elementary afraid ...

Businessmen for everyone asking for a go -ahead from the Kremlin. I say: “Guys, if I get a go -ahead from the Kremlin, why do I need you? You want to have a normal policy, then you need to invest in it. ”

Khodorkovsky’s case, the death of Magnitsky ... What else should happen in order for the business to understand that it is impossible to separate itself from politics? But what should the business do to change this system? Just finance parties? If they still offered something to business ... Business today is an ongoing daily nightmare. With a huge number of problems - if we talk about this business, and not the one where wives and relatives of officials are sitting, who has support, corruption distribution of orders and do not need to worry about customers. I read here in one newspaper an interview with the head of Rosfinnadzor. The correspondent asks him: "Is it true that during the construction of roads they steal the most?" He replies: “No, not true. It is difficult to steal more than 60% of the construction of roads. ” Just think about what he said! So, in others, up to 90% steal. And what is the point of doing business, earn these unfortunate three pennies when you can steal, and absolutely impunity. A normal, real business cannot compete with corruption created with an official or state structure. The state replaces the business. Those who are older and who have enough money leave. Why are they leaving? Because life is short. Because they have been given for 20 years: everyone's eyes burned in perestroika, and at the exit what? And young people do not go to business, they prefer to choke in the competition for the place of the head of the housing office: the competition was 352 people to the place to the Institute of Municipal Administration! I recently thought that our company would not go to our children. Not a single young man in their right mind will take up this body of this body - for the daily struggle with the bureaucratic apparatus, for these tons of reports. I have two accountants per manager. I give all my profits to the maintenance of the apparatus, which should be reported endlessly. I was not in vain about the fear in which the business lives. He simply paralyzes many: when these people come with sharp eyes and short haircuts, they do not come to you, to friends, it becomes very scary, really.

"

... called the head of the prison and said: "Do you have no acquaintances at the American embassy?" They say: "No, what does the American embassy have to do with it?" - "I would like to be deleted from the list of Cardin"

”I also did not know much in my life until they came to me-because I had no time, I had a business. I read“ Faynanshl Times ”, I watched the BBC, I was interested, and I felt like the laws of the economy that I need to study and understand. It seemed to me if I would integrate with my business, then everything would come to me now. I watch Channel One, I watch all the news to read between the lines and know what will happen to me.

Are you still afraid? No, after the prison I stopped 1 because I know what is there. The fear of the unknown is the worst of all. You cannot act adequately in this state. I caught myself on the fact that when the camera door closed behind me, I even felt some kind of relief: there is no more to solve anything else.

Bribes, reputables - grew up? Where else? The amounts called - 200, 300, 400, 500 thousand dollars. But more and more people understand that it is useless: giving money, they pay off only from the first small operative, and here is a whole system. I am trying to configure my colleagues that I need to fight and I need to protect myself.

Behind the red wall , the business that thought that Medvedev would change something, was disappointed in it? I think yes. Businessmen are people who achieve the result by action. And there everything is at the level of PR. Medvedev says the right things, but let's already, act, we will help, just start.

There is still some hope. Medvedev has about a year in order to realize the need for decisive changes, to formulate them and understand that it is impossible to rely on the current plummy bureaucracy.

Maybe Medvedev does not believe that the business, the one who is below, is ready to help him?

Then what is the president if he does not believe? If you are the president, you must believe in your country, in people. Look, everything is destroyed in our country. Addicts overcome, and not only because there is a traffic through us, which is the State Drug Control Service. No, we have a complete denial of all science and any program that could help people and offer something in return. And this is not that someone deliberately harms, they just do not need us, those who are in power. They have this red wall, behind which they are sitting in the golden halls.

Gennady Gudkov: Businessmen for everyone asking for a go -ahead from the Kremlin. I say: “Guys, if I get the go -ahead, why do I need you? You want to have a normal policy, then you need to invest in it "

An intimidation to order the anniversary of the death of Magnitsky is marked by the monstrous beating of human rights activist Konstantin Fetisov, journalist Oleg Kashin. Do you have an explanation - what is happening? Eat. Unfortunately, today a new technique in power is in power - they hire some “unidentified persons” who deal with people with hooligan methods.

Where does the order come from? From bosses of different levels.

The case of Beketov, Fetisova, Kashina - related things? It is not necessary, just if you can beat alone and there will be nothing, the second, then why not use this technique further?

Do the authorities use criminal or placed elements to eliminate people who interfere with them? For intimidation, for physical massacre, unfortunately, yes.

For what? They already control everything. And so easier. Unknown persons beat - from whom is the demand?

But I still would not simplify it like that. Here is Olga Romanova, your colleague and wife of a sitting husband-entrepreneur, told me one indicative story. She met with two businessmen who came out of the sailor silence. Before leaving, they were called by the head of the prison and said: “Thank you for the cooperation, how we sat well. I was glad to meet you. " (And they served there for a year and a half.) And he asks: "Do you have no acquaintances at the American embassy?" They say: "No, what does the American embassy have to do with it?" “I would like to be deleted from the list of Cardin.” So, there is something that scares them. And I say to myself: in order not to be afraid, you need to be just a little smarter than those who are afraid.

The discussion was conducted by Evgenia Albats,
Ilya Barabanov, Lyubov Tsukanova