49 conversations

The conversation is the third

The conversation is the third

We publish a printout of the third conversation of the cycle, the participants of which were the chairman of the Komi human rights commission (CPC) Memorial Igor Sazhin, human rights activist Vladimir Pystin and journalist Sergei Sorokin.

Sergey Sorokin (subsequently- S.S. ):-Igor, the detention of you by the police first in St. Petersburg, and then in Moscow on the grounds that your name is in a certain “list of extremists”, really alarmed. I looked on the Internet-exactly the same story happened to the famous Moscow journalist Valery Panyushkin three years ago. If you were detained at the airports, then he was at the Kursk station, they also interviewed and showed a fax, according to his assumption, with an orientation from the FSB. What did you show you?

Igor Sazhin ( I.S. ): - In St. Petersburg on the table at the operative of Timur Tetrus, I saw a fax - such a leaflet, a quarter, and already in Moscow they showed a photocopy from a fax of very poor quality. They showed, because the police, as I understand it, were very inconvenient. I was still joking: “The St. Petersburg show continues,” but I look, they are gloomy, only that we, they say, are sovereign people. And one of them showed me quickly - here, look: “Extremist from Komi”, and “is included in the extremist list”. As for the verb, I am not sure - either it was “entered” there, or “turned on”. And the word "extremist" is emphasized - apparently by them. I still looked at the headline, there is a “federal security service”. And Tetrus in St. Petersburg talked about the fact that, now, we were handed over the telephone message from the Federal Security Service, I will interrupt you now, give them to them, and then let them deal with you. But he didn’t give me away, they just let me go.

S.S. : - And before that you knew about the existence of such lists?

I.S .: - I heard that they were detained by Sergey Shimovolos, a human rights activist from Nizhny Novgorod, with whom I am familiar. They tried to pull him out of the train to the police department, but he cut off hard: on the basis of what? In the course of the train movement to the place where he had to hold a seminar, they tried to pull it out three times. And there the basis was that it is included in the extremist list. He sued, lost it, as I understood. He filed a complaint with the European Court of Human Rights and now asks me for documents - then to show that this is continuing and that this is a systemic action, which concerns many people.

Vladimir Pystin ( V.P. ): - Igor, and in the "hat" of photocopies, did the FSB really stand?

I.S. : - There was no “hats” as such. On the right side, as always in the texts, it was written.

V.P. : - In fact, this is very important because we have financial intelligence called Rosfinmonitoring. They also make up the "black lists" of faces ...

S.S. : - Rosfinmonitoring sends these lists closed to banks ...

VP .: - Not necessarily. Russia has international obligations. And these obligations and the Law on Rosfinmonitoring contradict the Constitution. But since international obligations are higher, all banking secrets regarding the accounts, operations of those people who fell into this “list of terrorists and extremists” become known to them ... Maybe these lists mean?

I.S .: - No, no ...

VP .: - Then in the actions of the police officers there is a composition of the offense. Because in Article 280 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation it is stipulated that citizen can be recognized as an extremist in the case of unlawful acts. That is, in relation to you, they had to officially submit a report or some statement that you, say, called for the forcibly overthrow of the constitutional system or to commit actions that pose a public danger. Moreover, these calls should be public. The person who received the application for the commission of unlawful actions is obliged to conduct a check, interview you, etc. If this was not done, but a list was compiled and sent to law enforcement agencies, and those, in turn, violated your rights to free movement, humiliated honor and dignity, then there is actually a corpus delicti, which is called arbitrariness ...

I.S .: - Volodya, we live in Russia ...

VP .: - Give, I will tell. This can really be achieved ...

I.S. : - And I am ready to achieve this. But there is one very important point. In our country, there are norms of the law, but there is a certain zone, a secret zone that is located in the FSB and knows the most others what needs to be done. Five years ago, at the international seminar, we asked one American prosecutor: “And what about Guantanamo there? Why are you trying people? You violate the US Constitution ... ”To which he told us that the US Constitution is not a catechism for suicides. That is, in any state there are people who recognize laws, but at the same time convinced that there are things that are above laws and constitutions. And in this case, it seems to me that they will do everything to “blur” this. As in the case of Alexei Semenov now: the court admitted that the specific Corterase police officers violated the law against him, but no official verification was carried out. Why? And they, apparently, had some kind of political instruction that they executed. And in this case, there is probably some political indication that needs to be executed against me.

S.S .: - Everything is so. If you, Igor, were suspected of committing some extremist crime, they would have interviewed here in Syktyvkar at the place of residence, and not detained at the airports of other cities, checking with some list. By the way, there are only two legal lists: a list of published materials recognized by the court extremist, and extremist organizations, again recognized by such a court.

V.P. : - You can look at this situation from what position. In 2000, there was a decision of the Constitutional Court of the Russian Federation, in which it was clearly and unambiguously indicated that any citizen has the right to get acquainted with all the documents and materials affecting his rights. Including, in the bodies of the prosecutor's office, the FSB, etc., the refusal to provide this information is a punishable action ... Therefore, the chain can be pulled out. This is not a mistake, because you were stopped twice. So, someone compiled this list. On what basis? .. If only, of course, this is again not a list of Rosfinmonitoring, which, as I said, is above Russian laws, and this list of terrorists and extremists can only be included on the basis that, conditionally speaking, there was no explanation somewhere there, for which he received.

S.S. : - “ 7x7 ” reported that you, Igor, sent a complaint to the Commissioner for Human Rights in the Russian Federation Vladimir Lukin. Has he somehow reacted to her?

I.S. : - Yes. They called me from the apparatus of Lukin and said that they sent a letter to the Ministry of Internal Affairs with a request to explain what was the matter. After all, many people, for example, were outraged from the international “memorial”, because my pacifist beliefs know me.

S.S .: - And all this, frankly, was more surprised. After all, simplified, you are just engaged in the prevention of extremism. Human rights activists, according to my concepts, serve as such a gasket, a sprinkle between the population and the authorities. Many of those who boil indignation and are ready to take up the club, nevertheless come to you, to your human rights commission. And you help ...

I.S. : - We bring people into the legal direction.

S.S. : - And it turns out that the authorities, and I am more than sure that these lists are coming from power, are hearing the bitch on which they are sitting. Remember that tragedy when the Intinsky pensioner killed the official right in her office? And if there was a strong human rights organization, it was quite possible that this pensioner would go there first, and there he would be helped to protect the violated rights ...

I.S. : - As far as I know, they admitted there that the rights of this person were indeed violated.

S.S. : - Here you go. The soot should be just in other lists that are compiled by extremists.

I.S .: - And they, apparently, have such lists (laughs).

V.P. :-In the old Criminal Code there were articles 190- "Edim" and the 70th (anti-Soviet agitation and propaganda). And in 1983, I was expelled from the Komsomol with the formulation of “the spread of slanderous information defaming the leaders of the party and the Komsomol” and called to the KGB, where in the presence of a large number of people I signed the paper that I was notified of the prevention of slanderous fabrications. But now the law is different. Now it is required that not just the words are, but public calls for violent overthrow. And at that time, as in Komi, in particular, nationalists are activated in Syktyvkar, such a fascist wing, and in relation to them, law enforcement agencies do not take absolutely no measures, they are not pursued, they are not interviewed - a person who is just advocated for the society to be protected from the activities of this kind of extremists.

I.S. - The most interesting thing is that when my portfolio was shone in Moscow, it contained a complaint to the Prosecutor General about some very strict statements of our local fascists.

S.S. - In our telephone conversation with you immediately after Moscow police were released, you mentioned that one of them suggested that you may have been made with a list at the insistence of some specific people ...

I.S. : - You, apparently, said someone in this list. That is, this policeman admits that there are people who, protecting their private interest, can lobby a person into a certain state “list of enemies”.

V.P. : - Just like that, such a list cannot appear. And if he appeared, then someone issued some kind of resolution ...

I.S .: - Or some kind of deesspace order ...

VP .: - No. Even within the framework of the law on operational-search activity, such a list can be compiled only on the basis of some kind of application or report. Someone had to notify, and you can also find out this person, because if it is discovered, you have the right to file an application to bring his author to criminal liability for a knowingly false denunciation.

I.S. : - I guess about what they took me to this list. One event happened. On the eve of him, by the way, I was in Moscow, and no one detained me. This event is a picket in defense of the residents of the house on Pushkin St., 21 on the day of Putin's arrival.

S.S. : - But you did not participate in it, as far as I remember.

I.S. : - Yes. But the fact is that the members of the PDA "Memorial" participated. Members of the Memorial CPC also came out to ensure their safety. As a result, both of them were detained - almost all the board of the commission, with the exception of me and another member. And perhaps the question was asked: who is the leader of this organization, and did he organize all this? Yesterday I spoke with the real organizer of the picket-Alexander Borisovich Ostrovsky, and he was simply outraged: "Yes, elapo-Pala, I organized, and you all the laurels."

S.S. : - jokes jokes, and history tells the bad analogies. It begins with illegal lists of extremists, enemies of the people, etc., and ends with extrajudicial reprisals ...

I.S. : - There is an interesting parallel historical. There was such an order No. 00447, according to which mass arrests and executions began in 1937. That's the first thing that was, in this order - to compose lists of enemies of the people: recidivists, fists, counter -revolutionary elements. Enemies were determined by criminal attribute, economic and political. Then, in accordance with the order, in a very short period, actions were taken to detain people who were included in the lists. The next step was the shooting of some of them.

VP .: - What far to go. In 1991, under the State Emergency Committee, the Prosecutor General of the regional prosecutors sent an order to create lists, which were supposed to include persons that pose a potential danger. Apparently, then these people were supposed to be isolated, and maybe eliminate ...

S.S. : - And what today? Well, here they created the Department for Combating Extremism of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation and the corresponding structures in the regions, including in Komi. We have had a lot of extremist crimes recently to create individual structures? But here these “E” controls appeared, and, I almost have no doubt, now they will begin to identify extremists even where they did not know before what kind of beast it was. In the end, the power prone to simplifying public life can equate the entire public, not built into vertical to extremists. And all because the current government feels its insufficient legitimacy and in this connection is afraid of every rustle in the bushes. Putin, when he came for the last time, was guarded by a man of thirty and the entire cash of local law enforcement officers. By the way, in this regard, the head of Komi Gaiser looks from the best side. He is protected by only one person, and he is only in working hours. For comparison, Torlopov had two bodyguards, and even his drivers part -time were listed as guards. By the way, one of the bodyguards is still everywhere accompanied by Senator Torlopov now. It would be interesting to know at whose expense his services are paid ...

I.S .: - Returning to the picket that I spoke about. I now remembered that the guys were delayed just employees from the EE unit. So they had to report that Komi also has an extremist.

S.S. : - Just about. The service begins to produce extremists.

VP: - Igor, I once again want to return to the fact that in this matter to hope that some organizations will be able to find ends - it is unrealistic: organizations are likely to refuse. But the person whose rights and interests were violated can get to the bottom of the truth. If you will hammer in all instances yourself ...

I.S. : - Yes, I will fuck. Because the matter is not only in protecting my interests. There is still such a moment: it is better to record people in extremists whose persecution has an interest in people influential, rich. In our current system, private interest is very integrated, and those mechanisms that should protect public interest are used actively to satisfy private interest. Do you want us to include this inconvenient for you in the list of extremists? Yes, no problem ... Do you need to deal with the competitor? Yes, without problems, now we will do ... This is a disease of modern Russia, when the budget of the region or municipality is used to replenish their personal budget, when the place in state or municipal service is used for the same. In Latin America, a very poor man, becoming the president, becomes a very rich man. In Russia - exactly the same. Therefore, it is also very important that people do not fall into this illegal list based on some private interest.