The people are against Evkurov

Why did the "exchange of territories" with Chechnya led to a multi -day protest of the Ingush people?

What happens in Magas, the Ingush capital? Why even old people and adolescents stand on the square and rally against agreements on redeeming borders between Chechnya and Ingushetia? Why is the issue of teip lands no less fundamental than the presence or absence of oil fields in the zone transmitted by Chechnya?

Why is this not an interethnic conflict, but a political crisis in the republic? How did the confrontation between the people and Yunus-Bek Evkurov began and what does the birthday person of the Day Ramzan Kadyrov have to do with it?

In the studio, Nadezhda Kevorkova , journalist, writer; Abusupyan Gaitaev, lawyer. In touch, journalist Timur Olevsky (the current time) from Grozny and Magas, politician Ruslan Mutsolgov (Yabloko, Magas, Ingushetia), chief editor of the Caucasian Knot site Grigory Swedov .

Elena Fanailova is conducting the program.

Video version of the program

Elena Fanailova: The people on the streets of Magas against President Yunus-Bek Evkurov, after an agreement was signed on the revision of the borders between Chechnya and Ingushetia. What is happening there, today we will deal with the hope of Kevorkova, a journalist, writer and director, in the studio also Abusupyan Gaitaev, a Moscow lawyer, a native of Grozny. In touch with us, the journalist Timur Olevsky, the TV channel “Present,” which today in Grozny is watching the birthday of Ramzan Kadyrov, and yesterday in Magasa will be in touch. Political Ruslan Mutsolgov, Yabloko, Magas, one of the young people who were detained these days when the Evkurova administration began to check what kind of people participate in protests. The editor -in -chief of the site “Caucasian Knot” Grigory Shvedov commented. To begin with, let's see what happened these days, with which it all started, what was the basis for the document so that the ten thousandth crowd today stood on the main square of Magas.

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Protests in the capital of Ingushetia

Elena Fanailova: Yunus-Bek Evkurov, as journalist Ilya Barabanov writes on his Facebook network, today was lost between Magas, Terrible and Moscow, the protesters have moved to the requirements of his resignation. Of course, the situation is politically very tense. How much discontent is Yevkurov in this and is there any Chechen-Ingush conflict in this? If we recall the historical part of the issue, then these relations have always been difficult. There was Soviet efforts created by a single Chechen-Ingush Republic, but there was conflict.

Nadezhda Kevorkova: I do not see any conflict. Vainakhs were expelled in 1944, it is very unit. The release of Ingushetia was due to the fact that there was a foreboding of the war of the federal center against the Chechen Republic. Ingushetia was just a rear. As for the current situation, according to my impressions, according to my correspondence with people, by the fact that I see that it is publicly said and laid out, people are very enthusiastic. Because people did not agree that they would decide everything very rudely, deceive them, how many deputies voted for or against. Once they wiped their feet on them. In Ingushetia freedom, so so. It is not customary to do this, and it is customary to go out.

Elena Fanailova: I have the feeling that Ingushetia is a rather developed zone in the sense of the presence of parties, democratic movements, Muslim various formations, youth structures, each of which considered it its duty to make some public statements.

Nadezhda Kevorkova: I categorically do not accept the opposition of the Ingush and Chechens. Chechens are also a very developed people. Many Chechens, including those who were associated with me in Chechnya, who expressed these people anonymously, and those who are not in Chechnya, they also see this as a manifestation of the freedom of the Vainakh people, which they are not ready to share.

Elena Fanailova: Moreover, in many networks, blogs, comments I read that Chechens support the Ingush.

Abusupyan Gaitaev: I agree with the hope that there was not even now, too, there is no Chechen-Ingush conflict. As for the current situation, yes, indeed, territorial issues periodically arose, but they arose at the leadership level. Johar Dudaev and Ruslan Aushev agreed on the situation, there was not even the slightest reason to think at that time that some kind of conflict was possible because of this. Plus, Johar Dudaev and Ruslan Aushev, their personal relations were male, let’s say, they respected each other. Somehow they worthy of this situation. After that, the question was raised by Akhmat Kadyrov and Murat Zyazikov, they also somehow agreed, this issue remained frozen, there was no concrete solution. Now the question has been raised, frankly, I did not quite understand why so sharply. Probably, it was still more correctly to bring information to people, who wanted what, what concessions or acquisitions. There was an opacity of the situation. If legal procedures are followed, if there are no falsifications during voting, if it is true, you can not leave this situation, which it is. In the future, the illegality of the procedure will be given an occasion for some reviews. The legal procedure must be followed absolutely, this is the first condition. Now the main question is that if the deputies of the Legislative Assembly of Ingushetia will find out this issue, prove and show people that there were no falsifications, I believe that there should be an open vote on this issue.

Elena Fanailova: The Constitutional Court of Ingushetia called for a referendum on this issue, recognized the agreement on borders illegal. Ruslan, tell us what was happening in the city today.

Ruslan Mutsolgov: Today about a thousand people remained for the night in Magas, half of whom remained in the square. People began to gather closer to dinner, more than 10 thousand gathered for Friday prayer. The only thing that is known for the new is that new deputies appeared who did not declare falsifications, they came and confirmed that they did not vote for the adoption of this law on ratification of the agreement between the chapters of two republics. They reported that they take a position that does not accept the recognition of this agreement legal. Now people are self -organized, residents of the republic bring hot food, water, and help the elderly. For women and elderly people, tents were installed, tents so that they could hide from the rain.

Elena Fanailova: Where is the head of Ingushetia? We have conflicting information, in which the city, it does not come to the people, there is no information.

Ruslan Mutsolgov: Of course, the head of the republic holds some meetings with certain circles, he tries to agree, tries to somehow stop the situation, provide assistance in the declension of the scales to his side. I do not think that he left the republic, he is here and holds meetings. The question is whether he comes to the people or not: the inhabitants for two months expected some explanations from him, but he took up a circular defense and did not say anything. Therefore, people are now not interested in his opinion and an attempt to explain something. People saw from his part a disrespect for the opinion of the population and, in general, to the population.

Elena Fanailova: It seems to be formal, I read materials about agreements, it seems that there is nothing there that could infringe on the interests of the Ingush. I was most worried, suddenly in these territories there are some villages or cities, but no, we are talking about a mountain massif, about an uninhabited territory. Why is this causing such an alarm, such a protest? Is it possible to say that people are afraid of something? Or are they simply unhappy that the administration of Yevkurov did not explain anything to them?

Ruslan Mutsolgov: The main reason is that the administration of the head of the republic, the head of the republic, his officials simply did not explain anything to people, they did everything backstage, conducted subcover intrigues, everything did hidden from the people. Moreover, when they were asked questions, they left them, referring to counter -terrorist operations, supposedly, the security forces are pulled here, and so on. There is no need to ask if there are some settlements in this area, the fact is that these are historical places, from there two very large kinds come from there, and secondly, many other surnames come from the same places. The point is that there are many monuments of historical and cultural heritage in this territory. This territory is included in the reserve of the Republic of Ingushetia. Documentary confirmation that these lands belong to the Republic of Ingushetia are two laws, which were adopted in 2009 by the parliaments of the Chechen Republic and the Republic of Ingushetia, on the boundaries of municipalities of both republics. According to these laws, the borders passed exactly as they were still, taking into account the land that is now actually rejected from the territory of the republic. At the end of 2012, the Parliament of the Chechen Republic adopted a law in which it made amendments to its law and thus tried to include part of the Sunzhensky district, the city of Karabulak, in the territory of the Chechen Republic. But these were absolutely illegal acts that did not have a legal basis. Today, we can document the fact that these lands, which are allegedly transferred to the Chechen Republic, are lands that are part of the Republic of Ingushetia. The new agreement is called “on the establishment of borders” specifically in order to circumvent the procedure for changing the boundaries and territories. If we say that somewhere they exchanged lands, then this is a game of words, a lie from the leadership of the republic.

Elena Fanailova: The people react in the networks in this way: there can be nothing without the federal center, it is not clear where this idea came from today, what needs to be taken and revised by the borders, or to approve them. I admit that it was a gesture of goodwill from all sides, so that the borders were already established, in simple words of the layman. Of course, we do not know the plans of the Kremlin and the degree of its participation, but the agreement was signed with the participation of the Plenipotentiary of the President in the North Caucasus Federal District.

Natalya Kevorkova: If we turn to the story of how the Soviet Union collapsed, we must remember that these very strange ones, as if from nowhere, were laid down, they were laid not by someone, but Stalin, who was directly engaged in national borders. It seems that this evil genius with some kind of devilish talent drawed borders to certainly sow these grains. It seems to me that without a federal center, as you put it very accurately, it was not done, the federal center pushes these things. It seems to me that the federal center understands that its time is expired, it is out of incomprehensible malice, I will not go into conspiracy (as we see, these people can’t plan anything) ... It seems to me that the country has already come so erratic, meaningless and vicious system of government, that any conflict is turning from anything, the god knows what. Perhaps they really want a little PR to cover their dark divisions that they twist there, but we will see it. I would not tragically perceive all this. Ingushetia gives us an example of the beautiful Caucasian, Vainakh freedom, she holds out a hand to all her neighbors. Including even Ossetians, which, in principle, are always scary, and if the Ingush will require a suburban area. Even among the Ossetians, among young people, among sane politically oriented people, this causes against the backdrop of general calibration of all, fright, the feeling that in this country such amazing freedom, we are all a gift.

Elena Fanailova: There is another version of what can be beneficial to the Kremlin, political scientists say this for the last three to four years: this is the creation of the so-called controlled chaos. Let's see what Grigory Swedov believes, the head of the Caucasian Knot.

Grigory Swedov: A rally in Magas should not develop into an interethnic clash. My forecast is such that this will not happen. People who gathered in Magas understand well that they have the basic requirements for the Ingush authorities, not to the Chechen authorities. The reason, the main essence of why people went to the square in Magas, lies in the plane of the relationship between Ingushetia and Ossetia, lies in the plane of the suburban district of North Ossetia, where the Ingush cannot return. Therefore, it is important to understand that a real interethnic conflict matters, today its unresolved matters. Today there is no nationalist requirements on the area of any nationalist judgments against Chechnya or Ossetia, but there is tension. And if with Chechnya it can still be resolved by professional informing, the educational component is still very limping in Ingushetia, then in North Ossetia the federal authorities should seriously deal with issues, for example, separate education in the suburban area of North Ossetia. Today we know that not all schools are mixed education, Ingush can study separately from Ossetians, and this does not contribute to the normalization of relations. The return of the Ingush to settlements. Help is needed to ensure that issues that are now disturbing the Ingush are further fading into the background, so that they understand that it is possible to return, the state will help in this, security will be ensured. Today, this work of the federal center is not carried out in sufficient volume, and there is no sufficient efficiency in the work that is done. This context affects. It is not the main element of the agenda of protesting Ingush, but it affects, it justifies the vulnerability that many Ingush has, against which the territorial conflict with Chechnya acquires the special acuity that we are now observing.

Elena Fanailova: We have Timur Olevsky in touch. Tell us what you saw today in Grozny and what is now in Magas?

Timur Olevsky: This, of course, is colossal contrast, like two different planets. Firstly, in Grozny there is Internet and telephone communication. It’s even difficult for me to imagine how much money Ingush has lost over these days due to the fact that it is impossible to call a taxi, not to mention the fact that payments are not taking place, bank cards and so on are not working. In Ingushetia, the connection is blocked, it is clear for what this is done: the authorities of the republic are afraid of the calls of people who are already in Magas, to other Ingush, so that they come there to gather in the square, and thus try to block the possibility of disseminating information. In Grozny, at that time, two hundred years of the city are celebrated very widely, Putin’s entire avenue is tired of the scenes at which contests are held, local performers are singing, they dance Lezginka. At these minutes, a large concert dedicated to the 200th anniversary of the city is held in Grozny, there Ramzan Kadyrov, there are a lot of artists who were brought. I flew with these artists from Moscow to Grozny, a full plane was foreigners. That is, this is a completely different story. As for people in Magasa, they very carefully, very carefully emphasize all the time how they say that the authorities pulls us, Ingush and Chechens, we all perfectly understand that we are brothers, Chechens do not need this just like the Ingushs, to separate these lands. But when I talked with the sources in the Chechen government, with several people, I realized by the mood that there was no road back, no one discusses any ideas to somehow revise this law. In Chechnya, even no one could explain to me why this was done right now, and not, for example, later or later. They put the question at the rally in Magas: maybe this is all connected with the notorious oil that was found in their territories? But there are no accurate data about this oil, because exploration is not too good. There are assumptions, some prerequisites for it to be, but obviously no one can say whether it is or not. Of course, the work of the Ingush police is very impressive. She is struggling to protect people from any actions that can force them to use force, protects as much as possible. One of the unverifiable, but violently discussed things is that OMON Ingush’s one of the other regions, the other riot police, for example, Stavropol, does not pass to the republic, the information is repeated regularly, it is impossible to understand whether there were several such cases. Just past me along the road from Nazran to Magas drove a car with Ingush flags, it is obvious that people go to this rally. Another story that is now actively discussing that Ruslan Aushev took some participation in the decision of this conflict, also all with hope await that he will come to the republic and do something.

Elena Fanailova: Ruslan, you were detained a few days ago, they came with a search, what motivations were, what the security forces wanted? I judge by the report of the "Memorial" of Ingush, who posted this information, there very clearly from the first day all the events are painted.

Ruslan Mutsolgov: First of all, I would like to note that there will be no conflict between the Ingush and Chechens. We are two fraternal people, and our brotherhood has been tested for centuries. Our claims are only exclusively to Yevkurov. По поводу задержаний, задержания начались еще 25-го числа в городе Сунжа, продолжились с 26-го числа, потому что люди стали собираться в городе Магас. В общей сложности было 16 задержанных, которые привлечены к административным штрафам 10 тысяч, один из них – это я. Обыски прошли по той причине, что власть опасалась организации митингов, либо массовых мероприятий. Их интересовали непосредственно средства связи, компьютеры и так далее, чтобы блокировать работу, информационное сопровождение. Связь в Ингушетии отсутствует третий день, и это показывает, что власть действительно боится обстановки, которая сложилась в республике, боится активности населения. Люди не боятся ситуации, даже те преследования, которые были организованы руководством республики, давление через силовиков, привлечение к административной ответственности, людей это не беспокоит. Административные штрафы, казалось бы, для нашей республики тяжелое бремя, но жители скооперировались и сказали, что “мы оплатим за вас эти штрафы. Вы вышли ради республики, жители республики возьмут на себя оплату этих штрафов”. Это показывает, что население республики едино в своем порыве. Уже около 25 тысяч собравшихся в Магасе. Такая помощь, люди подвозят еду, горячее питание, теплую одежду и так далее. Давление, которое организовано было властью на людей, не имеет результата. На депутатов оказывалось давление, чтобы они проголосовали за этот закон, их вызывали, угрожали, обещали разное Но, как видите, этого не произошло.

Елена Фанайлова: Тимур Олевский сказал, что он разговаривал с представителями чеченского правительства, которые уверены, что никакого пересмотра этого соглашения по границам не будет. Никаких объяснений, почему этот проект возник сейчас, дано не было. Это какое-то противоречие, видимо, между тем, как это видится в Чечне, и тем, как это видится в Ингушетии. Как это может быть разрешено, этот конфликт разрешим какими-то способами, как вы полагаете?

Руслан Муцольгов: Безусловно, все началось с Кремля. В этом есть интерес на высшем уровне, свой интерес получили здесь все три стороны, имеется в виду подписанты и тот, кто дирижировал этим, это Кремль. Такая позиция есть в республике. Мы усматриваем в этом связь между назначением главы республики Евкурова на третий срок и подписанием этих соглашений в той форме, в которой они сейчас появились. Это говорит о том, что ценой за его третий срок является подписание этих соглашений. Соответственно вся плоскость этого спора лежит вокруг этих событий. Да, к этому готовились, может быть, это ожидали, планировали, но подвернулся случай, по случаю они решили сделать именно сейчас, тем более, что глава республики год-полтора назад не занимал эту позицию, был категорически не согласен с тем, что эти земли принадлежат исторически Чеченской республике.

Елена Фанайлова: Посмотрим опрос на улицах Москвы, в день рождения Рамзана Кадырова мы задали людям вопрос: как бы вы его поздравили?

опрос на улицах Москвы

Елена Фанайлова: Одно крайне неполиткорректное пожелание мы не смогли включить в этот опрос, там было не пожелание здоровья, а совершенно другое пожелание. В контексте этого дня рождения еще сегодня было несколько таких шуток или замечаний: возможно, это соглашение – подарок Рамзану Кадырову к дню рождения. Но, возможно, этот подарок является чем-то вроде троянского коня, который несет в себе очередное зерно противоречий. Возможно, для Кадырова, как и для Евкурова, это скорее головная боль, чем точка в долгом диалоге о границах?

Абусупьян Гайтаев: Сейчас можно придумывать все, что угодно, по факту происходящего. С другой стороны не очень понятен смысл. Может быть, действительно есть лицо на высшем уровне, у которого есть какие-то дьявольские планы далеко идущие. Разумного объяснения этой ситуации, честно говоря, нет. Непонятно, кто инициатор всего этого. Очевидно, что без Кремля обойтись такой серьезный вопрос не может. Даже по закону без согласия федерального центра вопрос территориальный невозможен. Было принято решение, оно было согласовано. Я не думаю, что Евкуров хотел сделать что-то плохое для ингушского народа, потому что он все-таки за интересы ингушей, национально ориентированный человек. Сегодня то, что ингушское общество такое свободное, нет жесткой вертикали власти, я помню, как Верховный суд Ингушетии прямо вставал в оппозицию Евкурову, это невозможно представить в других регионах, в этом тоже есть его заслуга. Что касается, какие шаги необходимы для разрешения, то не надо сейчас ломать ингушский народ, принуждать его безусловно принять решение, о котором кто-то договорился. С чеченской стороны очевидно, что все права и полномочия делегированы Рамзану Кадырову. На сегодняшний день видно, что ингушское общество отказывает в поддержке Евкурову в этом вопросе. Значит, надо этот вопрос каким-то образом решать с привлечением Кремля. Лидеры ингушского народа, безусловно, будут прислушиваться к Кремлю, это данность, это факт. Референдум тоже возможен, почему бы нет. Хотя бы для начала выяснить, были ли фальсификации, этот вопрос тоже важен. Самое главное, я напомню историю чеченского народа относительно недавнюю: все эти вопросы, все эти процессы, в итоге проходимцы оказываются во главе этих процессов, к сожалению, они создают большие проблемы не только для себя, но для народа.

Елена Фанайлова: Будем надеяться, что в этот раз все может быть иначе. Мы задали вопрос Григорию Шведову, чего боятся люди, простые люди и в Чечне, и в Ингушетии.

Григорий Шведов: Во-первых, надо прояснить насчет сел. Не очевидно, что есть конкретные села, которые отходят Чечне. Именно в этой сфере нужна просветительская работа, именно это должна сделать власть, показать более подробно, более детально, отправив туда операторов, отправив туда лидеров оппозиции, те конкретные места, которые отойдут Чечне, показать, что там нет, например, сел, как они это утверждают на словах, показать это картинкой, показать это людьми, которые поедут туда непосредственно на место, что было на протяжении последнего времени затруднительно, в этом районе была объявлена контртеррористическая операция, которая ограничивает доступ в район. Действительно, многие люди считают, что доступ может быть ограничен, хотя заявление Рамзана Кадырова прямо обратного характера. Он говорил о том, что доступ будет свободный. Более того, власти уже успели отчитаться, еще до начала протеста, о демонтаже контрольно-пропускных пунктов между Чечней и Ингушетией, которые самопроизвольно возникли на том витке противостояния, который предшествовал митингу. Я думаю, что многие не понимают, чего они боятся, многие страхи не особенно рациональны. Я думаю, что проблема не в конкретных территориях, хозяйствование на которых будет затруднено, по крайней мере, с ингушской стороны. Проблема в незнании, непонимании точной фактуры по поводу отошедшей земли. Очень много спекуляций, много слухов, которые нужно развеивать, а вместо этого в спешном порядке в трех чтениях принимается законопроект, вместо того, чтобы показать реальную картину, что конкретно уходит к Чечне. Например, с чеченской стороны ситуация более очевидная. Целый ряд жителей Чечни заявил "Кавказскому узлу" о том, что они не вполне довольны, что они потеряют земли, которые использовали ранее, сельскохозяйственные земли, я говорю про жителей Надтеречного района.

Елена Фанайлова: Не только ингушскую часть отдают Чечне, но и чеченская часть переходит по этому соглашению в сторону Ингушетии. Это выглядит как проблема хозяйствующих субъектов?

Надежда Кеворкова: Я категорически против того, чтобы мы навязывали вайнахам какую-либо роль Москвы как судьи. Все, что делает Москва, она только делает хуже для людей. Это империя, которая нависает над Кавказом, которая не знает, что делать с этими свободолюбивыми людьми, которая всячески старается угнетать их и унижать. Как только ослабевает федеральная власть или исчезает, это произойдет рано или поздно, Кавказ будет свободным, там не будет этих границ, не будет хозяйственных споров, не будет всего того, что мы так сейчас скрупулезно обсуждаем, что унизительно для людей. Каждый горец, каждый кавказец знает, где находится его земля. Поэтому мы даже как-то подыгрываем федеральному центру, что мы это обсуждаем, а это неправильно.

Елена Фанайлова: Руслан, чего бы вы себе хотели пожелать?

Руслан Муцольгов: Я хотел бы, чтобы вы нам пожелали скорейшего разрешения данной ситуации и исполнения наших требований, требований митингующих, тех, кто собрался на площади. Одно из требований – это отставка Евкурова, человека, который привел к этому конфликту, к усугублению общественно-политической ситуации. Безусловно, в данном случае республика хочет провести референдум по данному вопросу либо аннулировать это соглашение.