President against the President

Who will Ukrainians support in the second round of elections?

In the final of the presidential Ukrainian race, the current president, and an artist who played the role of the president in the cinema, will clash. Whose will take? And what will their main arguments against each other in the second round of elections be? In the Kiev studio of the RS, live on 19.06 was discussed by Ukrainian journalists Dmitry Gordon , Alesya Batsman , Peter Zalmaev .

Full video version of the program

Elena Rykovtseva: Today our program leaves Kiev. The elections, which were so much mentioned on federal Russian channels, finally took place. Today we will talk about the results that are at that moment. We will return to the distant past-on Friday, when we asked for passers-by from two cities, from Kyiv and from Moscow, to answer the question of who will still go into the second round of Ukrainian elections. We can now compare who was closer to the truth. Let's see the Kyiv survey.

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Who will enter the second round of the presidential election of Ukraine?

Elena Rykovtseva: Now a survey of Muscovites.

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Who will enter the second round of the presidential election of Ukraine?

Elena Rykovtseva: These surveys more or less adequately reflected the situation that developed after the first round of elections. With us, Dmitry Gordon, with us Alesya Batskman, very popular Ukrainian journalists. Peter Zalmayev, the leading channel "Direct", is quite famous in Ukraine, with us. Are you satisfied as voters with the result of the first election, the first round? Did you go to the plots?

Alesya Batsman: As a voter, I would be completely pleased if Vladimir Zelensky and, for example, Yulia Tymoshenko, was in the second round, and ideally Igor Smashko, for whom I personally voted.

Elena Rykovtseva: That is, you are for rewriting the election law, so that the three go on the second round there?

Alesya Batsman: We are now modeling some kind of ideal story, ideal, as it seems to me, for Ukraine. Such a story would be perfect. But even what we have is already what you can work with. Because I think that the result of the final election in the end will still be for the good of Ukraine.

Elena Rykovtseva: Dmitry, did you go to the site?

Dmitry Gordon: I definitely walked. I voted for Igor Smashko, I do not hide it. I am pleased that Igor Smashko scored 6%. I am unhappy that he did not gain as much as it would be necessary in order to enter the second round. I am upset that Petro Poroshenko got into the second round, I consider it wrong for Ukraine. I believe that after five years with Peter Poroshenko, Ukraine was supposed to make a choice without Poroshenko. But how it happened, it happened. Now it is very important that he does not become president.

Elena Rykovtseva: It turned out that the results of hundreds of questions, about which they love to say that this is nonsense, these are purchased ratings, but they coincided with the results of the vote. You walked in advance, knowing that your candidate had small numbers.

Dmitry Gordon: They did not match. He was given 2.5%, the maximum that was given to him by hundred -polls. I absolutely understand that polls are a manipulative tool in the hands of those who fight among themselves. They, as a rule, are purchased, sociological services work for a lot of money for candidates. Here Igor Smashko - a man who went to the polls, having a million 800 thousand hryvnias that voters gave him, is generally an unprecedented case. A person with void money compared to tens of millions of dollars that were abandoned by the topanders, without a single video on television, with a limited number of appearance on television, all mostly YouTube, Facebook, sites, and those who agreed to take interviews, charisma, eyes, face, background.

Elena Rykovtseva: I understand that his numbers have changed a little. I mean, the three leaders have not changed.

Dmitry Gordon: In someires of Julia Tymoshenko, 31%were given, in otherires, Yuri Boyko was given 21%. Poroshenko painted some prohibitive interest. Pure deception. Therefore, I urged everyone not to believe the polls, to vote at the behest of the heart.

Alesya Batskman: According to polls, the most important manipulation that passes from the elections to the elections in Ukraine. This technology has long been brought by your Russian technology, which traditionally felt very well here, every election they came to work when you can collect very well. I think that these elections were probably the exception for the first time when they were not involved.

Elena Rykovtseva: Famous Ches. It seems to me that in 2014 they no longer toured. In what year was Dmitry Kulikov PRAR Arseniy Yatsenyuk?

Alesya Batsman: They were still teams, some people were represented in 2014. In these elections, either local or attracted Western, Americans mainly worked mainly. The main technology that was brought here and it still works, in these elections it was in it that they tried to build a campaign when the voter with the help of hundreds of polls, which, as Dmitry said correctly, were mainly bought by certain large players. So it develops that our large offices for the election period are divided between these players. With the help of these polls, and then the experts pick it up, the voter forms such a picture, he is harassed that there are two or three candidates the largest, your voice will not disappear only if you vote for these we show you. Everyone else has the slightest chance to go through, so friends, if you do not want your voice to disappear, vote for the big. This is the technology, which, by the way, has now broken the result by Igor Smeshko, because he showed how for the shortest time, absolutely without money, I had talked with political strategists before, everyone kept telling me that if you want to enter the leaders, you need to spend one hundred and two millions of dollars for Ukraine. In the first round, like any Western democracy, which is also elected in two rounds, how to act if we are not talking about manipulation, but about real democracy, to which Ukraine, thank God, is coming, we are now going through this path, although we have it, in the first round you must vote through the heart. No need to go to polls, you like it, you understand that this is yours, read the program, look at his biography. Choose those who you like. And already in the second round, here you need to choose less evil. In our case, in the second round, we will also choose less evil.

Elena Rykovtseva: I accept all this, but I will insist that the five leaders remained unchanged, no one burst into her. Zelensky’s numbers were long the highest objectively in different ratings, no matter how different teams would like to adjust these ratings for themselves. Peter, did your expectations live up to the voter or are you disappointed with the result that Ukrainians received in the first round?

Peter Zalmaev: My sympathies are on the side of the current president with all its shortcomings of management and so on. Nevertheless, I must state that democracy, no matter how pathetic it sounds, but democracy triumphantly. Ukrainian democracy with all its jerking off once again demonstrated its vitality. If we remove the Baltic countries, then Ukraine is currently number one democracy throughout the post -Soviet space. I think a rather unsuccessful indicator of the current president and a serious lag, I think, is unfair to blame him. I think in many ways we are talking about centrifugal processes. We observe a rebellious wave, which swept and continues to roll through the countries of Western democracy, and indeed around the world. Any president who intercede in 2014, I think, would not be the best, if not in the worst situation. The population demonstrates its fatigue in the inveterate elites. Just Zelensky is a bright representative of such a character. We have a precedent with Donald Trump in the USA. Remember Italy, where the famous comedian headed the “Five Stars” movement.

Elena Rykovtseva: In June, I discussed this story with Kiev journalists, Petro Poroshenko had a very small trust rating, it really managed to raise it. It did not work out, as in Russia with Yeltsin, when he had 2%, but he became a real winner, because the whole press fell, all together became wide columns, closing his shoulder to shoulder. It was a completely deliberate action that everyone got up and pulled Yeltsin again to the president. It was in Russian history. Here you did not succeed to pull Petro Poroshenko out of his little rating to the presidency, but it turned out to be lifted. If you agree that in six months it was possible to raise it and even pull it out to the second round, can you explain how it happened, due to what?

Dmitry Gordon: I know how Yeltsin was raised and revived, there was the amount of everything. Firstly, the huge financial injections of the "Semibankers". Secondly, as the ballots were considered then, and what was done then in the plots. Thirdly, when Comrade Zyuganov said that either life or the presidency, as the most influential security official of Russia told me, he chose his life and did the right thing. He did not arise, he got his own, and everything is fine.

Elena Rykovtseva: Agree that from 4% they raised to a very high percentage, much more than they raised Peter Alekseevich.

Dmitry Gordon: Then no one controlled the elections, then it was possible to throw billions of ballots. The role of the press is great, of course, and the slogan “vote or lose”, mass tours, bribery, boxes from under a photocopy. We all remember and know everything. In Ukraine, a slightly different situation. Peter Alekseevich managed to go to the second round. With its level of popularity, striving for zero, it is comparable to the feat, I think. But again, a lot of technologies worked there-a powerful administrative resource, the bribery of voters, when people are paid money from the state budget, as if they were paid not from the state budget, but President Petro Poroshenko. Yes, a large number of people are brought to poverty, I do not condemn them when they take money and vote for the one who gave it. But because of these people, Ukraine is constantly beating. I repeatedly offered people who are not taxpayers, not to give the opportunity to vote, to deprive the rights of the votes of those who do not pay money to the budget, and then we would have a completely different story.

Elena Rykovtseva: How was Poroshenko’s rating, due to what?

Dmitry Gordon: At the expense of a fund that gave money to millions of people. Due to the dead souls, for sure, due to the gallows who did not vote, at the expense of Yuri Vladimirovich Tymoshenko, who gained 0.65%.

Alesya Batsman: If such a parallel is such, then, probably, a little incorrectly two main factors. The first is that Ukraine is not Russia, as the classic said, other laws are in force here, the people react differently, they are still used to rebel when they try to impose something. So it will always be, thank God, it always saved us. The second is that today's world from the one that was in the 90s, of course, differs. First of all, because of the Internet, due to mass absolutely Internetization, iPhones, phones that shoot, social networks. In these elections, social networks and YouTube played a huge role, that is, those leaders of opinions that, using a social elevator, came to the surface.

Elena Rykovtseva: And they raised the rating to Peter Alekseevich?

Alesya Batsman: He also has a factory that works for his rating. Due to the fact that it has been working stupidly enough recently, it was already visible, it did not give the effect that should be. According to your logic, if it were so that they took and pulled.

Elena Rykovtseva: I have no logic, I have facts. Unless, of course, you agree that his numbers were small and became large. Do you agree with this? And if so, how were they more, due to what?

Alesya Batsman: If you draw a parallel with Yeltsin, Petro Poroshenko would win the elections in the first round. As we see, this did not happen. Our fuses worked. Why? Dmitry told, laid out the technology.

Elena Rykovtseva: Blocking and falsification not dominant?

Alesya Batsman: I think this is a very big role in this, because he has a crazy anti -rating. Any power has a large anti -rating, but Petro Poroshenko has at any polls. Let's not write off the accounts, perhaps a volume added some percentage to him, which really entered his surname in the history of Ukraine, a person who gave the independence of the Ukrainian Church. Therefore, I do not exclude that some part of the electorate, especially in Western Ukraine, reacted to this. Plus partially the electorate, which went beyond the theme "Language", when we disconnect, and not unite, but again there is such a part of society, it worked for them, so it is possible that they went due to this. Plus, do not forget that in any part of society there are those who act on the principle of "so that it is not worse." Those who are afraid of changes, because they do not know, they are scared by the unknown, especially in a situation where we have a war with Russia, when we have a huge aggressive neighbor who does not want to leave and give the stolen. Such a part of the people also worked.

Elena Rykovtseva: Do you think that the election tactics "everyone who is not me, that Putin" gave his results? The percentage that he had, maybe appeared due to the fact that people really thought that all other players were somehow bought by the Kremlin, somehow agents work for it, and this one is clean.

Alesya Batsman: I believe that it was an erroneous strategy, the tactics of the president, I do not know who advised him from his environment. I think that this did not bring him, but, on the contrary, he was distant from possible points and victories.

Elena Rykovtseva: Peter, if you agree that his numbers have increased and he bypassed Yulia Tymoshenko, then due to what? What brought him additional sympathies, trust, voices?

Peter Zalmaev: Undoubtedly, the lion's share of the success of Peter Alekseevich is the fact that he still went on the second round is a very important, perhaps symbolic victory for him, but nevertheless. He has very talented PR managers, his main PR man is Igor Gryniv, he is considered a mastodont of this matter. Of course, his vision in many respects helped to ensure such a result. I listened to Dmitry and Ales respected, until Alesya mentioned Tomos and tongue, I was a little surprised why we were talking about the mechanics of the campaign. Of course, there is an army of powder, they are launched, but there are Julibots, Zelenskobots. To some extent, more or less in equal conditions. Nevertheless, what Peter Alekseevich did for Ukraine, regardless of the result on the second round, he secured a place in history. The importance of Tomos, this is now saying a deeply worldly person, despite the presence of a diploma of a Protestant preacher, for many Ukrainians this really was a very important and iconic event. The fact that he recreated the army and, of course, the fact of visa -free. In recent months, the Poroshenko team skillfully reminded the electorate of this what Poroshenko did for them. Of course, for many inexperience, the unknown of the candidate Zelensky as a political figure also became such a factor of “stop”. I think that Peter Alekseevich still has the opportunity to compete and win in the second round, no matter how it would sound implausible now. Mr. Zelensky often compares himself, at least they say that he sees himself as Ronald Reagan, I believe that it will be important for Pyotr Alekseevich to turn on Ronald Reagan and take the pedestal from Zelensky. You remember when Ronald Reagan debated with his opponent Mike Dukakis, he told him: "You know, I will not use the youth and inexperience of my competitor against him." If Peter Alekseevich rises against Zelensky, I think that the electorate will see a very big difference.

Elena Rykovtseva: I think, for Pyotr Alekseevich, there would be a very strong move if he asked in one of the issues of the “95th quarter” to replace the actor who plays his role and himself to the stage. I think he would have attracted a lot of sympathy, I would definitely take a ticket for such a show. We will see now the plot about how the first tour ended, discuss the numbers and discuss how the second will take shape, what they can oppose to each other, these two rivals.

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Zelensky VS Poroshenko. Who will become the next president of Ukraine? The results of the first round

Elena Rykovtseva: I was completely shocked by the figures for voting in military units, because it is impossible to imagine in Russia. A lot of things cannot be represented in Russia, but for the military to vote not for the current commander in chief - this is an unthinkable, fantastic situation.

Alesya Batsman: We wish you this from the heart and quickly.

Elena Rykovtseva: It was one of the main theses not even the Poroshenko team, but of any enemy of Zelensky - I can not imagine him as a commander in chief. As if he, as an actor, cannot play a role, he can play any role very well. But people in military uniform presented him and voted. You yourself are not surprised?

Dmitry Gordon: Ukraine is a country of democracy. By and large, whoever says, democracy and freedom of speech. I am on any television channel, in YouTube I can talk about Poroshenko nasty things that I think of him, I don’t think about him well, but I say this and I am not afraid that something will be for me. This is the triumph of democracy and freedom of speech. And the fact that the military voted so, they think so. Nothing can do anything with the fact that someone has their own opinion. There are no law or underwater trends that could force them to do otherwise.

Alesya Batsman: This suggests that they just want change. They are also people, they also think, they thought when they did it. It seems to me that it would be logical to establish not two presidential terms in a row, but for the president to come for 5 years, this would be enough. Because there is such a temptation, following the second five, to follow the path of Putin, to make something to limit something so that these temptations did not even exist, it seems to me that it would be logical to limit such a five-year plan. Then the real replacement of power. No need to be afraid of the elections, look at Europe. Yes, let them come democratically bad, better, even better until they choose those who can do.

Elena Rykovtseva: I was strongly impressed by a map of Ukraine, which was today shown on the 5th channel, which is associated directly with Peter Poroshenko, showed a map of Ukraine-it is completely green. They painted green in green, where Vladimir Zelensky became the leader of the race. The three regions were painted red, where Petro Poroshenko was the leader, and painted some Donetsk, Lugansk, those territories that are controlled by Ukraine and where Boyko is the leader. This made a strong impression. Does this result surprise you? How do you evaluate it?

Peter Zalmayev: In the Memorial, an unexpected, paradoxical result, given that the language question for Peter Alekseevich became very important. I think, largely thanks to this, plus Tomos, he will be able to conquer a place in the second round. Nevertheless, the paradox is that most Ukrainians are concerned about other things - this is the economy, the welfare of their own family. Absolutely normal human psychology: people want to see new, fresh faces, people want to believe in a fairy tale. Just as the American electorate believed in the fairy tale of Donald Trump, the story that he told him for many years, playing the role of a successful businessman. Also, the Ukrainian electorate wants to believe that art can imitate life, and life to imitate art. It seems to me that it seems to me a rather positive moment that Ukrainians tolerant nation and Ukrainians are not so important in which their fellow citizens will speak. Therefore, I also see a certain positive moment in this.

Elena Rykovtseva: It is important and interesting how the election campaign will develop further. What will Poroshenko’s election campaign now build? Will he continue to operate this thesis that this is the hand of Moscow, this is a clown, he cannot be trusted with the state? You already heard his words yesterday, there was such a bright phrase where Maxim Galkin, Evgeny Petrosyan were listed: what do you want now? April 1 ended, joked, played at the president-clown, enough, let's go on a serious work from April 2, let's choose a serious person, it sounds in the subtext. How much can an election campaign be built on this, how much will it last on this? If he does not stand on this, then what then?

Dmitry Gordon: You said that Peter Alekseevich has very good political scientists, I think that they are very bad.

Elena Rykovtseva: I didn’t say that, I don’t know what they are.

Peter Zalmaev : I said this about Gryniva.

Dmitry Gordon: I believe that a bad political strategist Gryniv and around Peter Alekseevich all bad political technologists. Because there are basics of political technology: the more you scold your opponent, the more the opponent gains points. And you remember very well how Gorbachev and his environment scolded Yeltsin, what came of this in due time. The more Petr Alekseevich will say, how bad, clown, jester, comrade Kolomoisky Zelensky, the more Zelensky will score points. Therefore, I think, if he wants to count on something, wants to become a president, you need to stop accusations, think about what he can surprise people. It seems to me that there is nothing to surprise. He has already tried everything that can be surprised. I can be wrong.

Elena Rykovtseva: Alesya, imagine yourself as a PRISK Poroshenko.

Alesya Batsman: I do not want and will not, because I do not want to help him win. I would definitely change the rhetoric that was chosen for him, this rhetoric of war. Because history showed that this does not work as he wanted. They hoped for a completely different result. Given the resources and opportunities that they launched, they received, believe me, a very small exhaust. Therefore, if there are smart people there, and for sure there are also smart people there, then I think they will draw conclusions from this case. I just want to say that it is too early to relax, it is too early for Vladimir Zelensky to rest on his laurels. A lot will also depend on him now, on how much he can unite all the other players around him who can support him, substitute his shoulder, and help him win.

Elena Rykovtseva: Actually, he already said that he does not need anyone, he does not want any of these, he will cope.

Alesya Batsman: I think he will think.

Elena Rykovtseva: Peter, what arguments will Petro Poroshenko come up with in his favor at this stage?

Peter Zalmaev: The main, fundamental maneuver for Peter Alekseevich will still call Zelensky to the carpet, stand next to him, starting with the fact that even physically Zelensky is two heads below him. Perhaps I am almost sure that as a result of such debate will be revealed that Zelensky, in terms of his oratory, is simply not suitable for Peter Alekseevich. No wonder Zelensky political technologists protect him from cameras. Just yesterday, in his election headquarters, he lost 20 minutes in a ping-pong and then gave the so-called press conference to reporters for two minutes-this says a lot. I think that Peter Alekseevich now, realizing that he had nothing to lose, he should really shoot all absolutely blowing. He must show decisive actions. He must get rid of the iconic "beloved friends" in Ukrainian politics, the same Yuri Lutsenko, Nazar Kholodnitsky can be excellent candidates for Plakha. He must show decisive actions. It will be important to use any information that is, including up to incriminating evidence. We do not actually know that the Poroshenko teams now have as compromising against Zelensky and the one whom they represent as his puppeteer, Igor Kolomoisky. It is possible that they kept this surprise until recently. In the interval between the first and second round, they are the same films, notes, you know that Kolomoisky loves to speak on the phone very much, does not actually encrypt what is called his bazaar. If there is something similar, it may have the effect of an exploded bomb.

Elena Rykovtseva: You have offered a lot of topics to us for discussion - this is the sacred sacrifice that Petro Poroshenko can bring, this is the incriminating evidence in Zelensky. Can it be found in three weeks, which was not found for such a long election campaign? Because it still does not work to convict him of anything special. He explained all these offshores, which were revealed, this refers to the connections regarding Russian film production. Kolomoisky is not responsible for his father, although he is not a son at all, and Kolomoisky is not a father. He said many times that they are just business partners, that yes, Kolomoisky owns the channel on which the product of Vladimir Zelensky, his evening quarter and several other products, is released. Yes, they share profit. But why at the same time his partner should influence him, he cannot understand. Honestly, I am also amazed at this. It is like Peter Alekseevich to say that he is a puppet of his business partners in the Roshen enterprises, which are located in many countries of the world. This is a very bad way, it seems to me that it is unscrupulous, to put the sins of another, if any, to put on one partner. Can they find something directly on Vladimir Zelensky in three weeks?

Alesya Batsman: I am almost sure that in the case of Zelensky, compromising evidence will not work. Because a person who was not in power did not steal, never had a relationship to the state budget, it is clear that he did not steal from him, because he did not contact him in any way, to surprise with something like that. What can you find? I think you can only come up with anything, I ate children, something else. Zelensky in Ukrainian politics is quite Teflon. We tried, we saw how many attempts were with offshore and something else, now, now a strange absolutely story with the recorded support of Russian actors, monsters. I think Peter knows smart people, he will advise how to behave correctly. He has already voiced several interesting ideas to us.

Peter Zalmayev: I agree that Smeshko, Gritsenko and even Yulia Tymoshenko can be potentially with the figures to which Peter Alekseevich can try to pave this bridge and offer them some significant roles in case he wins the second cadence. I think that this will be a very wise solution - to pave the bridge to your competitors in the first round.

Dmitry Gordon: I think that only a person who can throw his political reputation and the future on the block, can support Petro Poroshenko today, substitute his shoulder. Пять лет, которые были даны украинским народом президенту для того, чтобы совершить великие дела, просто пошли коту под хвост. Украина погрязла в коррупции, мира нет, попыток установить мир нет. Мы видим бесконечное количество Гладковских, которые окружили президента. Поверить в то, что он не знал о том, что эта коррупция творится на крови, то есть мы платим 1,5% в фонд обороны, куча людей, волонтеров, которые на своих плечах вынесли все тяготы, теперь мы узнаем, что там пилится бюджет в страшных пропорциях, военный бюджет. А что может быть хуже в военное время? Поэтому подставить плечо Порошенко сейчас могут только самоубийцы. Я не верю, что найдется кто-то, Гриценко, Смешко или Тимошенко, которые скажут: Петр Алексеевич, мы с тобой. Never in life.

Елена Рыковцева: Очень важная и интересная тема – это дебаты. Действительно, представьте себе дебаты, на которые приходит человек, который достаточно глубоко знает экономику страны и понимает, почему не получается то, что он хотел, то, что обещал, он может это объяснить с цифрами, с фактами в руках. Насколько будут эти цифры верны – этого не может знать его соперник, потому что он пока не специалист. На самом деле в этой ситуации, когда один совсем с нуля начинает, а второй все-таки информирован, не находятся ли они в положении, когда эти дебаты заведомо проигрышны для одного из них, он, скорее всего, на них не пойдет?

Алеся Бацман: У нас пока нет закона об обязательных дебатах для кандидатов в президенты, которые вышли во второй тур. То, что эти дебаты состоятся, – это совершенно не факт. Тем более что вы ситуацию разложили достаточно правильно, на мой взгляд, для одного из кандидатов будет очень сложно именно в такой борьбе выглядеть профессионально подковано и достойно. Володя разве что может на таланте, на юморе, на иронии их провести, такой вариант тоже возможен. Возможно, что он как раз в этой ситуации был бы самым подходящим, Зеленский мог бы на этом получить голоса. Но для этого, конечно, ему пришлось бы хорошо готовиться. Пока, я бы сказал, ему лучше на них не выходить.

Elena Rykovtseva: I agree with you. Но представьте себе ситуацию, она уже созрела, Порошенко сказал, что он готов на эти дебаты. В этой ситуации, которую мы себе моделируем, ему выгодно пойти на эти дебаты. Зеленский тоже сказал, что пойдет. То есть они, будем считать, что состоятся. Кто находится в заведомо проигрышной позиции? Сможет ли Зеленский за счет легкости, юмора и остроумия как-то прикрыть пустоты, которые у него есть?

Дмитрий Гордон: Я ставлю себя на место Владимира Зеленского. Всегда, когда хочешь дать ответ за кого-то, поставь себя на его место. Актер Петр Алексеевич не хуже Зеленского, а намного лучше. Ложный пафос, ложный патриотизм и так далее, биение себя в грудь с криками "слава Украине" и пение гимна у него получается лучше, актер он превосходный. Я думаю, что Станиславский и Немирович-Данченко, увидев его актерский талант, перевернулись бы в своих гробах не один раз. Поэтому понимая, что актерски он меня переиграет, меня, актера Зеленского актер Порошенко переиграет, он мне будет забивать голову во время дебатов цифрами, за которыми ничего нет, как правило. О чем мне дебатировать с человеком, который запятнал свою репутацию и за 5 лет президентства провалил все? Поэтому я бы от дебатов отказался, я бы сказал, что пусть он проведет дебаты с Гладковским и со своими друзьями, которые являются коррупционерами, пусть они подебатируют, сколько они украли из бюджета денег, и это будут лучшие дебаты. А я покажу себя делами, когда стану президентом. Вот так бы я сказал.

Елена Рыковцева: Питер, если Владимир Зеленский воспримет советы своих умных коллег, что действительно не стоит рисковать, и не пойдет на эти дебаты, притом что Петр Алексеевич будет готов к ним, много ли голосов он на этом потеряет, сильно ли ударит это по его электоральному рейтингу?

Питер Залмаев: Нужно взвесить то количество голосов, которые он потеряет в случае своего отказа от участия в дебатах, и те голоса, которые он потеряет, если будет участвовать в дебатах. Тут надо выбирать наименьшее из зол. Я согласен с Дмитрием, как бы это ни звучало нечестно по отношению к украинскому избирателю, который в принципе заслуживает введения нового закона, закона о дебатах, которые, я считаю, должны быть обязательными, тем не менее, в нынешней ситуации в интересах Зеленского отсидеться. Порошенко и его команда, армия порохоботов, будем говорить откровенно, будут закидывать обвинениями в трусости, тем не менее, для него это наименьшее из зол. Я не соглашусь с Дмитрием по части цифр. У Петра Алексеевича есть цифры и убедительные цифры, которые не врут, которые он может показать. В том числе те цифры, 6 миллиардов долларов, которые Украина каждый год экономит благодаря серии антикоррупционных реформ, которые были приняты, это задокументировано международными организациями. Поэтому есть ему что показать. А Зеленскому я бы посоветовал отсидеться.

Алеся Бацман: Какие дебаты я бы хотела посмотреть – это дебаты Порошенко и Тимошенко. Это была бы битва титанов, это были бы два соперника. Я думаю, на эти дебаты покупали бы билеты люди за деньги просто в первые ряды. Вот это действительно мне было бы интересно, там одна и та же весовая категория.

Елена Рыковцева: Может быть, Зеленский возьмет ее доверенным лицом и отправит вместо себя на эти дебаты.

Алеся Бацман: Хорошая идея. Питер, посоветуйте.

Елена Рыковцева: Например, в России ходят доверенные лица вместо своих кандидатов. Вместо Путина, например, ходили на дебаты его доверенные лица.

Алеся Бацман: Мне не нравится российскую практику перенимать.

Елена Рыковцева: Иногда в ней бывает разумное. Вы можете назвать три фамилии министров, которые назовет Зеленский?

Дмитрий Гордон: Нет. Никто не может их назвать, я думаю, и сам Владимир Зеленский. Сегодня он находится в переговорном процессе. Я думаю, что будут многократно меняться первоначальные варианты, пока он не выйдет на оптимальный вариант. Сегодня у него задача объединить необъединяемое ради недопуска недопускаемого.

Елена Рыковцева: Ваш прогноз на второй тур, сколько человек придет и какой будет расклад?

Дмитрий Гордон: Мне кажется, придет чуть больше людей. Расклад будет, я надеюсь, что Зеленский победит. Потому что если победит Порошенко, пол-Украины встанет и уедет.

Алеся Бацман: Мне сложно отвечать, мысленно я все взвешиваю. Это будет очень сильно зависеть от того, как поведет себя Зеленский. Давайте так, пусть победит Зеленский.

Елена Рыковцева: Питер, кто победит?

Питер Залмаев: Я думаю, 60% – Зеленский, 40% – Петр Алексеевич, но эти 40% – очень серьезный результат.

Дмитрий Гордон: Вы честный человек, Питер.

Елена Рыковцева: Не знаю, как поведут себя украинские избиратели, но в этом эфире второй тур закончился с перевесом в пользу Владимира Зеленского буквально 100-процентным количеством голосов участников программы.