Carnival of victory?

What gives Putin’s regime the main religious holiday of Russia? Discuss Alexander Arkhipov, Alexander Tsipko, Igor Aidman, Nikolai Knyazhitsky

Victory Day - 2018 The program “Faces to the event” May 10 at 19:05 is discussed: Doctor of Philosophy Alexander Tsipko , Anthropologist, Associate Professor of the RSU, Alexander Arkhipov - co -author of the study of Victory Day in different cities of Russia, sociologist Igor Eidman (Berlin), deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Nikolai Knyazhitsky .

Has the holiday of May 9, a cult day, became a cult day? Is it correct to talk about "victory" as a new post -Soviet totalitarian religion? Why didn’t the Victory Day have gained the meaning of the day of memory and sorrow, but is increasingly turning into a popular show or street carnival and is accompanied by vulgar, kitchev advertising? Are stocks in honor of Victory Day by covering and justification of the Kremlin aggression in Ukraine?

Mikhail Sokolov is broadcast.

Video version of the program

Mikhail Sokolov: Russia celebrated Victory Day in the morning with a large -scale military parade for Vladimir Putin and his guests, and during the day the multimillion -dollar procession of the Immortal Regiment. The public action passed under the patronage of the authorities and became similar to the procession in support of the regime of Vladimir Putin. The question is at first simple: why does the Russian authorities need an annual military parade, and now still backed up by this folk procession, which the authorities clearly took control, organizing mass?

Alexander Tsipko: There are many reasons. The first reason is the most serious - this is the post -communist Russia, which actually has no values for integration, wants to find something that would unite everyone that would be non -alternative and absolute. Undoubtedly, the absolute value is the victory in the Second World War, the banner over the Reichstag, in my opinion, is a decisive role in the defeat of the Nazi army. These are values that the overwhelming part of the population does not dispute, around these values you can build some kind of foundation. This is objectively, it is honest.

But there is, of course, a purely political goal that in your comment is a way to strengthen power. Because since we live in a new version of the authoritarian Russian power, when the leader of the country-at the insistence of people, of course, the leader-connects himself not only with the authorities, but also with some important national values, hence Putin’s participation in the demonstration of the Immortal Regiment, he adds absolute value to absolute power.

Therefore, a person who will critically tunes in, wants to see mistakes, shortcomings, as in a normal country, is scary, because it is not just a chosen leader of the country, but this is a person who personifies national pride and national shrine. Therefore, it is obvious that along with an objective need for this value that is necessary for uniting a nation, there are still purely political goals, they are visible on the surface. But in my opinion, to speak honestly and objectively, this combination of power with this saint, in my opinion, will eventually inflict great damage to the holiday itself, the very Day of Victory.

Mikhail Sokolov: Will the authorities cause damage or not? If people understand, for example, that there is no foundation in the present, they are always slipping values from the Soviet past.

Alexander Tsipko: You are absolutely right, the problem is that there is no future program. I am amazed, I am 77 years old, even in Soviet times, we, students of Moscow State University, the beginning of the 1960s, were interested in the truth about the war, we read Nekrich "June 22", we watched the "ordinary fascism" Romm, we knew, were proud of this victory. We were interested in why so many people died, why Stalin destroyed 80% of the army command personnel before the war, why so many people surrendered for three months. That is, we were interested in with all respect for the reason for the drama of this. Now no one is interested in it. Such an attitude to war and victory, as I personally have to victory over Napoleon.

Mikhail Sokolov: The day of the capture of the Bastille. In France they celebrate, they drink wine, there is also a parade, really.

Alexander Tsipko: They are probably not interested in the fate of the Jacobins. True, Robespierre destroyed 1442 people in six months, in comparison with Stalinist repressions, it looks somehow funny, although this is a national tragedy, terror and so on.

Mikhail Sokolov: But the military parade, apparently, strengthens the nation when people look and think: you see, it is not for nothing that we live so badly, there is a beautiful army.

Alexander Tsipko: Here the problem is much more complicated, I wrote about this in all my articles. After the accession of Crimea, we became a besieged fortress, we had a mobilization military consciousness. The parade does not just remind of victory, and he simultaneously takes the thinking of a person towards the army, the advanced achievements of the weapon. In my opinion, this is very dangerous. Because we are absolutely not talking about the threats of life - about drug addiction, alcoholism, corruption, which prevents the nation from developing, which is undermined. I was absolutely struck by the "hawthorn" tincture, the national tragedy, 70 people, the descending people drank, died. After all, this is a reminder of these homeless, unfortunate, of moral degradation. Suddenly, we have the vice speaker Peter Tolstoy speaks half-joking, half-seriously: we enter the era when we need tinctures of "hawthorn", and not buy American medicines. This is complete madness.

Mikhail Sokolov: It’s just, sorry, an illiterate triumphant boor, who was in this power.

Alexander Tsipko: I agree. But keep in mind, it seems to him that he is a patriot and loves Russia. In this phrase, hatred of their own people. For him, these people, his own people are a means by which he wants to establish himself as a person opposing the United States, as a great patriot. This is madness. I call this grave cemetery patriotism. By the way, more recently, Vitaly Tretyakov in the polemic said with me: "Yes, if the world does not admit that we are power, the center of force equal to the United States, then we will destroy all of humanity."

Mikhail Sokolov: He, after Putin, apparently said this.

Alexander Tsipko: At least Putin has logic there: if I know that rockets that destroy Russia will fly, then the world does not exist for me. There is such Old Testament logic - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. A country that puts 7 times less in science than South Korea, you must recognize me as a power, and it will kill all of humanity. I understand, Vitaly Tretyakov, I know him at least 40 years, this is also a way of self -affirmation, to preserve my posts. But why do these people whom you named absolutely do not think about these 20 million poor people, they do not exist for them. The chef exists for them, and secondly, show the whole world that I am a patriot.

Mikhail Sokolov: Igor, how did you perceive these celebrations? How do you explain how such a formula of Soviet veterans, and indeed a significant part of the population “never again” about the war turned into “we can repeat” against the background of this strange carnival with a huge number of vulgarities, some ribbons, tied with water bottles, the immortal regiment in Antarctica and other strange and incomprehensible?

Igor Aidman: The fact is that May 9 is not just a holiday, it is an element of the civil state religion, which has been established in Russia during Putin, and a very important element. This is the main religious holiday of Russia, that civil religion that has been established. This civil religion is so syncretic, it consists of both elements of traditional Orthodoxy, and of the elements of purely secular holidays, secular cults, the main of which is the cult of victory in the Great Patriotic War. This cult of victory is certainly very dangerous, it is certainly united by the nation, as Mr. Tsipko put it, but it unites the nation not as in democratic countries, it unites the nation as in totalitarian countries, where it is necessary to constantly consolidate the society around the throne, Secretary of General, Leader or President, as in our country, where Putin has formally presidential position. That is, it is an element of state religion and this is an element of totalitarian systems that is installed in Russia, in many respects has already been established. Moreover, the element is very dangerous, because this holiday of victory is not turned into the past - it is turned into the future. The main message that the Russian media broadcasts, state-owned different figures, such as Tretyakov, Tolstoy, Tolstoy and others, is that we won in 1945, we are the victorious people, and we will definitely win in any other serious conflict, we should not be afraid of a new war, because we will win anyway.

Mikhail Sokolov: Do you think that in a sense, these shares in honor of Victory Day become cover and justification, for example, the Kremlin aggression in Ukraine, and the one who goes to the Immortal Regiment is now in support of United Russia and Vladimir Putin?

Igor Aidman: Absolutely. Moreover, I even watch the Immortal Regiment shares that took place in Europe, in the same Berlin, in other cities, there were flags of the DPR everywhere, there were some kind of propaganda posts, propaganda actions, and portraits of Stalin everywhere. This is absolutely simultaneously a political and quasi -religious action, which is aimed only at one - at the approval and consolidation of the dictatorial system, largely totalitarian, which was established by Putin in Russia, and its ambitious, aggressive foreign policy.

Alexander Tsipko: It seems to me that you have to be very careful.

Mikhail Sokolov: You are careful, I understand that you are not in Berlin.

Alexander Tsipko: It's not in Berlin. I know very many of my friends who critically relate to Putin, did not go to the polls, but in the name of their parents the dead or in the name of living participants in the war took part in this action.

Mikhail Sokolov: And I know so many people who do not like Patriarch Kirill, for example, consider him a corrupt leader of the church, but go to church, since there is no other. This explanation is. Alexandra Sergeevna, as far as I know, you studied how the Victory Day is celebrated in different cities of Russia. This 2018, of course, had not yet managed to study. What conclusions do you draw as an anthropologist, what do you see?

Alexandra Arkhipova: We are on the expedition, we study how the “Immortal Regiment” is held, how the Victory Day is celebrated in different cities, preferably in small cities, so that not political mobilization itself is visible at the micro level, everything is clear about it, but it was clear and clear that people have in mind that they think that they want and why they participate in this. Because when we talk about political mobilization, we perceive people as some pawns, as some senseless salt shakers that can be moved on the table, and they will do what they want. They have an idea, they have a choice, go to the Immortal Regiment, do not go to the Immortal Regiment. This is what we study.

Mikhail Sokolov: And the conclusions are still what are you, for what people go to this action? To with the banner "For the Motherland! For Stalin!" It seems to show that you are loyal? What is the element of the foruding here?

Alexandra Arkhipova: As a rule, in many small cities, schoolchildren are forced to walk. As a rule, in schools, this honorary right is charged with the duty, they should carry portraits of the heroes of this land. But basically, in addition to schoolchildren who carry portraits, there are a large number of people who come there themselves. If we talk to them, then we see that in fact the "Immortal Regiment" is essentially two completely different rituals.

One ritual is aimed at holding the "Immortal Regiment", where schoolchildren, excellent students, pioneers, the best athletes, the most beautiful will be held at the beginning. In the end, for example, military brotherhoods will go, and in the middle residents of the city will be held, at the beginning of the administration or church hierarchy. This is in front of us is a cut of the city, before us is the whole social structure of the city, as it is. Thus, we demonstrate to ourselves and the world that there is such an ideal, desired social order.

Participation in the "Immortal Regiment" is a way of maintaining this social order. So actually reflects the local administration. On the other hand, many people participate in the Immortal Regiment not because they were ordered, not because they want to demonstrate something, but because they want to unite, to feel their ancestors, their great-grandfathers, their grandfathers, their fathers, show them to the world again. We very often hear replicas: my grandfather died in Belarus, he did not reach Berlin, and he did not participate in the Victory Parade. Let at least like that, my grandfather will participate in the Victory Parade. This is a standard explanation.

Another question is why this arises now why this did not arise 10-15 years ago, why such an explosion is now taking place. And here, as a rule, the matter is in two fears, in two types of fear, in two types of frustration. Some people are afraid that the memory of their relatives will leave, she will die with time. Veterans die, the memory of them dies. The second type of fear is the fear that there are some external forces that constantly threaten us, they humiliate us, they understand the losses in the struggle, they overdose our history. It can be liberals, Ukrainians, Americans, anyone. These enemies are mocking us, they humiliate us. The way to resist this is the "Immortal Regiment". Therefore, there is a monstrous surge in using the St. George ribbon, the Victory raids and the "Immortal Regiment" after 2014.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is, we see such a political mobilization against incomprehensible external enemies, which, in fact, present the power. By the way, it is interesting that Vladimir Putin on Red Square also spoke out exactly about what Alexander Arkhipov spoke about.

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Vladimir Putin

Mikhail Sokolov: You, Alexander Sergeyevich, are worried about the fate of the world in your articles after the Ukrainian War and various vivid statements of Russian politicians, you are probably also on this list of those who want to cross out, distort, to forget, to fake, to rewrite. This statement of Putin, in my opinion, is an attempt to block what you are talking about, that is, the search for historical truth.

Alexander Tsipko: That's the point. In my opinion, at least in such an abstract form it turns out that if a person is interested in truth, historical truth is interested in, if he speaks of the inconsistency of Soviet history, then he involuntarily becomes those who want to cross out history and so on. It seems to me that in such an abstract form, the application can be sent against those who think. The problem is, I understand that the vertical of the authorities should appear, by the way, it created, as you know, democrats and liberals who led Putin to power and created this constitution.

Mikhail Sokolov: They created the Constitution to Yeltsin.

Alexander Tsipko: The Constitution of Rumyantsev, Sobchak, and the third that appeared, Shakhrai, there Satarov took part there and others. They proceeded from the fact that there is a fear of chaos - all this is true, so the vertical of power is needed. I remember how we are in the "Fatherland", I, the glory of Nikonov and the late Vladislavev created this ideology. But we did not think that in Russia the vertical of power turns into ultrasound, absolutely centralized power, turns into politics, where the language of truth, the language of doubt is not needed, it becomes dangerous. What is the serious psychology of the besieged fortress, as soon as a person falls into the besieged fortress, he is looking for enemies, he connects all his troubles with enemies, he stops thinking. Anemia of consciousness, the loss of historical memory, fear of the truth deforms people, they turn into half -loves, they are afraid of all. Moreover, it is interesting that in Stalin's times there was a reason to be afraid, because really for a joke could be 25 years old. Today, it would seem, there is nothing to fear, at least there is no what was under Stalin, however, the brains, the look of the lizard, which is confused, does not know what to say. From the point of view of the spiritual development of a nation of this type of upper, which causes fear of truth, fear of our own opinion, to live in a common trend, what we observe, it cripples people.

Mikhail Sokolov: The people themselves who go to the “Immortal Regiment” in the city of N are of a district scale, they are generally satisfied with their lives, they have at least some understanding of their connection, for example, the dysfunction or dysfunction of veterans, for example, what is happening, as Ilf and Petrov said, in the “big world”, all these wars, all these geopolitical clashes, conflict with the west, and so on or so on or so on. layers of consciousness?

Alexandra Arkhipov: Many people believe that loyal people who think along with the party line really go to the "Immortal Regiment", their thoughts bend along with the party line. In fact, everything is wrong. Life in these small cities of the north and south is quite depressed, after the introduction of sanctions it worsens, there is no work, mass reductions are underway. Mass abbreviations in a city where 20 thousand inhabitants are not at all the same as mass reductions in Moscow. Thus, in fact, the situation with the "Immortal Regiment" becomes even more crystal. Because the logic is as follows: my grandfather fought for my good life, he would have looked at what is happening around. Moreover, we must remember even more what he did.

Mikhail Sokolov: It doesn’t occur to people that if they were just as actively going out of other reasons for their exciting, as on the “Immortal Regiment”, would their life be different?

Alexandra Arkhipova: This is a difficult question, this is another topic. But protest activity in the small cities of the North, the north-west of Russia is very non-trivial. One "like" is even worse than a picket. For example, you said a careless word addressed to the local administration, and that’s all - you can’t do anything further in this city, because the traffic police will stop you every 20 meters or you will lose all orders. For example, in one city there was a small protest of a social, the local representative office of Gazprom called all the state employees and was terribly crushing them. That is, in small towns, where everything is in sight, thoughts about the mayor can be read accordingly. Therefore, it is difficult to imagine what strong pressure is on these people. In this sense, the story about how a ninth grader is going to open the headquarters of Navalny in the city, everyone dissuades him - this is a strong story.

Mikhail Sokolov: That is, people live in conditions of electronic totalitarianism, for them the "Immortal Regiment" is in a sense a prosthesis of real life.

Alexander Tsipko: I agree with the initial thesis, there are three different motivations. The first motivation - organize, presses the administration and so on. Purely human motivation, it is very strong, it does not need to be blown. We must perfectly understand that millions of losses, in every family, close ones died. There is a spiritual reason, the internal recall these people, show their portraits, show that they contributed to this victory. This is a problem of personal pride, it is a problem of respect. Of course, the third layer, about which we are talking about how to resist this supposedly this existing external threat, attempts to distort the true history.

Mikhail Sokolov: Where is this genuine story? In the Kremlin, at Medinsky?

Alexander Tsipko: I don’t find out this question now, but they have it. I am deeply convinced that while the internal is still moving the need to turn to memory and so on. I repeat, if this turns into a ritual, the spiritual basis will disappear and the organization will remain, the duty will remain and everything will disappear.

Mikhail Sokolov: Do you think that in a sense, the "Immortal Regiment", and the parade, and St. George ribbons, all this, sorry, elements of the hybrid war? Is this sacralization of the Great Patriotic War, by the way, outside the framework of the Second World War, namely, as the Great Patriotic War, cutting off the period of the Pact, all this creates in modern Russia the atmosphere of justification for such colonial wars, such as the war in Ukraine?

Alexander Tsipko: We will be frank, the overwhelming part of the population is extremely negative about the war in Syria. Among my friends, and various social layers, I have not yet met a person, except for the military specialists who understand the military meaning, testing weapons and so on. The attitude is changing to the war in Ukraine, in the mass there is no such enthusiasm for, as Putin said, the victories of former miners and tractor drivers. There is fatigue, people are tired of the war, which, incidentally, becomes inevitable.

Mikhail Sokolov: They are even less told about this war, they think that there is no war.

Alexander Tsipko: There is different motivation. The delight about the accession of Crimea was genuine, sincere. Another thing is that no one thought, how it would end, what it would lead to. The reaction, as propaganda gave, resists on the one hand, there was a mood on the side of Donbass, Lugansk, on the side of the "militias". There is alienation from this, fatigue.

And in general, it seems to me that the government underestimates these mechanisms of patriotism. This is as it was at the beginning of the First World War, 2014: for the tsar, for the Fatherland, everyone is ready to die. And in 1917 they already ran after the Bolsheviks who promised the world and so on. I don’t know, I have a deep conviction that, in general, the people are tired of the way of consolidating society and the authorities, which is due to this patriotism from above, due to some rituals and so on. I have the feeling that this will not last long.

Mikhail Sokolov: The deputy of the Verkhovna Rada Nikolai Knyazhitsky is in touch with us by phone from Kiev. As I understand it, you also have Victory Day. Mr. Poroshenko made a number of statements of bright ones that Nazism was primarily defeated by the Ukrainian soldier, that the marshals and generals, Ukrainians by origin, headed half of the 15 fronts, among the generals there were 300 Ukrainians. Is this also a way of patriotic mobilization now, that is, the privatization of the victory over Nazism in favor of the current government?

Nikolai Knyazhitsky: No, nothing of the kind happens to us. The reverse process is just taking place in our country - an attempt to prevent it from privatizing or distorting the history of the Russian authorities that wages the war with Ukraine. Therefore, our officials, the elite make such statements to show that Ukrainians also suffered in this war, Ukrainians also fought in this war. My father was a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, my uncle took Berlin, my grandfather died. But this does not mean at all that on Victory Day we must arrange demonstrations that would promote any power. My father went to the grave of an unknown soldier, silently drank a hundred grams in memory of his dead friends and relatives. When the authorities are trying to use this for propaganda purposes, of course, it looks absolutely cynical.

Mikhail Sokolov: Now Alexander Tsipko said that in Russian society there is fatigue from a conflict with Ukraine, from war, people are partly disappointed with what is happening. How does Ukrainian society are now looking at Russia, where millionth demonstrations with portraits of the dead ancestors led by Putin go, how is this perceived?

Nikolai Knyazhitsky: differently different people. Not so long ago it was our joint story, in Soviet times it was our common mythology. But if now with St. George ribbons they kill the grandchildren of those people who fought with Nazism with these ribbons, then, of course, people have changed their attitude to everything that happens. It is difficult to understand in Russia. For example, the swastika was an ancient Slavic, ancient Indian sign, it was very often used in the Ukrainian folk embroidery earlier, nevertheless, after Hitler privatized the swastika, we perceive it absolutely unambiguously as a sign of fascism, as a sign of Nazism, and no sensitive person will allow himself to dress a swastika. The same thing happens with the St. George ribbon - Ukrainians are killed with this ribbon. When we see it on TV, we perceive it as an aggressive threat. In the Second World War, people fought for peace, and now this people actually support aggression.

Mikhail Sokolov: Do you have the hope that in the near future the Russian government is under the pressure of sanctions, circumstances, this fatigue, will it change her policy towards Ukraine, to her independent course?

Nikolai Knyazhitsky: The hope of the latter is dying. Of course, we would really like this, but, unfortunately, there is very little faith in this. Because, it seems to me, the Russian authorities lives that it creates myths, then he believes in these myths. Unfortunately, these are not the myths of the world, but these are myths to show again that we are the strongest, that we defeated fascism, because we were the strongest, and not because we wanted to achieve peace, were allies with the United States, with the UK and other civilized world. This attempt to continue to bend everyone, to colonize everyone, unfortunately, is still strong in the Russian government. Very little hope that this will change quickly, but I would really like it.

Mikhail Sokolov: But do you see any political signals from Moscow?

Nikolai Knyazhitsky: Unfortunately, no.

Mikhail Sokolov: Alexander Sergeyevich, what do you say, did you hear Nikolai? You still had some smile when you heard quotes from Poroshenko about the number of generals, Marshals, that it was the Ukrainian soldier who won. Is there something so offensive here? By the way, Lukashenko, perhaps, spoke out even better, he said that all the Soviet people contributed to the victory over Nazism, shares it somehow, Putin divides it in his direction, Poroshenko in his direction, not very well.

Alexander Tsipko: I agree with you, this is a common victory. There was then neither independent Russia, nor independent Ukraine, Belarus. This is a common victory of the Soviet people, all nations that took part in this. And therefore, to isolate by ethnic composition and by the number of Ukrainians to determine the role, there is something so unhealthy in this.

But on the other hand, I must perfectly understand this, I wrote about this back in 1990, almost 30 years ago, as soon as they start to allocate, to leave the USSR, they will have to get their own national identification, they will have to leave society. And what is happening now with Poroshenko - it was inevitable. He distinguishes from Soviet history what is connected with the ethnic people.

Mikhail Sokolov: This is the construction of national ideology. And Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin with this war helps him to create a single Ukrainian nation.

Alexander Tsipko: Honestly, the accession of Crimea created a single Ukrainian nation - this was obvious to any person.

Mikhail Sokolov: But this was not obvious to Vladimir Putin, he wanted to take half a Ukrainian or create a “New Russia”, or something else.

Alexander Tsipko: Honestly, I don’t know who was the initiator of this crazy project about the creation of Novorossia and so on. They left the USSR, began development, but there are still a lot in common, there are CIS.

Mikhail Sokolov: No longer.

Alexander Tsipko: Now there is nothing. But as soon as you begin to send "green men" before the elections, all the more you will stumble.

Although, between us, Ukraine was ugly towards Crimea, it did nothing for him. But as soon as this happened, the motive of the unification of people appears.

I am now engaged in Ukrainian identity - this is a very difficult thing, it has always been anti -Russian. By the way, it was a step towards the creation of finally the Ukrainian nation. The enemy appeared, they come out of the Unified "Russian World".

It is still unknown what will happen to the Ukrainian Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, she will also lose positions. Therefore, to any person who was engaged in foreign policy, it was obvious that this would happen.

Но может быть, тут же у людей другая логика, действительно Украина неизбежно ушла бы на Запад. Может быть, он рассуждал так: она все равно уйдет, давайте-ка я заберу Крым. У меня такое ощущение, что никто не знает историю Украины, ни проблемы, особенности украинской национальной идентичности. Но любому человеку было очевидно: до тех пор, пока в Украине есть несомненно прорусский Крым, прорусский Донбасс и так далее, очень трудно любому правительству легитимному Украины превратиться в антирусскую республику. Как только у вас пропал Крым, мгновенно сплачиваете Украину на антирусской основе, и вы получаете у своих границ 40 миллионов людей, которые враждебно относятся к России. И это же очень опасно. Как люди не могли об этом думать – для меня это загадка.

Михаил Соколов: Игорь, я хотел бы вас услышать о связи демонстраций патриотизма, которые мы видели, и постколониализма путинского.

Игорь Эйдман: Безусловно, этот накачанный культ победы, накачанный искусственно через тотальную пропаганду общероссийский "русскомировский" патриотизм – это инструмент гибридной войны. Особенно это заметно в Европе. Именно с помощью таких ритуалов, как акция "Бессмертный полк" и так далее, русскоязычные общины сплачиваются и их пытаются превращать в неких агентов влияния путинского режима. Конечно, огромное количество людей приходит на эти акции, участвуют в каких-то других культурных мероприятиях совершенно без задней мысли, исходя из своих вполне чистых и прекрасных чувств, связанных со своим уважением к предкам погибшим, но это все имеет совершенно четко заточенный политический смысл, это такой инструмент, я бы сказал, даже не ювелирный, а дубинка в руках Кремля, которой он лупит по сознанию русскоязычных во всем мире. Главный месседж, что вы все, где бы вы ни жили, нас связывает общая победа и нас связывает общее противостояние с теми, кто пытается у нас эту победу забрать, кто пытается сейчас нас подавлять, как это делали нацисты, пытается ограничить наш суверенитет, наше величие занизить и так далее. Мы должны этим людям противостоять, где бы вы ни жили, вы находитесь в запасе у этой огромной армии "Бессмертного полка", которая должна в любой момент выступить на стороне Кремля в любом противостоянии. И это более, чем опасно.

Михаил Соколов: А чем все-таки это опасно? Сколько россиян находится в Европе, в Германии? В конце концов, делать из них "пятую колонну", по-моему, невозможно и даже странно.

Игорь Эйдман: Я наблюдал выборы недавние в Бундестаг, которые прошли в прошлом году, активнейшим образом работала пропаганда российская на русскоязычных. Доходило до того, что некоторые интернет-провайдеры, которые транслируют российские телевизионные каналы, они просто в открытую давали рекламу АФД. В результате правопопулистская, антиевропейская по сути партия Альтернатива для Германии получила значительную часть голосов благодаря русскоязычным избирателям. Более того, она стала даже третьей силой формально в Бундестаге именно благодаря поддержке русскоязычных избирателей. И теперь эти депутаты Альтернативы для Германии ездят в Крым, активнейшим образом проводят прокремлевскую политику, раскалывают немецкое общество, пытаются препятствовать любым действиям, направленным на консолидацию немецкого руководства, защиту собственных интересов. Проводят политику Кремля по большому счету, это реальные агенты, реальная "пятая колонна".

Михаил Соколов: Я правильно понял из ваших текстов, что вы придерживаетесь примерно той же позиции, что и господин Княжицкий, что сейчас эта георгиевская ленточка превратилась в такую, извините, георгиевскую свастику?

Игорь Эйдман: Абсолютно. Я не знаю, читал ли этот текст оратор предыдущий, но это один в один моя позиция. Безусловно, свастика тоже не была изначально каким-то преступным символом, ее сделали преступным символом те, кто вывесил ее на свои преступные флаги, пошел с ней на преступную войну и другие преступления. Ровно то же самое произошло и с георгиевской ленточкой. Именно люди с георгиевскими ленточками на петлицах устроили бойню в Донбассе, захватили Крым, продолжают участвовать в различных акциях и мероприятиях совершенно понятного свойства, пытающихся разрушить суверенитет и в постсоветских странах, и в странах Европы, в Прибалтике. Если раньше это был безобидный символ, ничего в нем такого не было, но после того, как его сначала приватизировали кремлевцы, сделали чисто пиаровскую акцию, известно, что это придумали пиарщики кремлевские, что нужно эту ленточку восстановить и сделать символом победы. Теперь это стало не просто безобидным пиаром, теперь это стало абсолютно реальным символом агрессии, символом той скрытой войны, которую ведет кремлевское руководство против своих соседей в лице Украины и тайно против значительной части цивилизованного мира, в том числе и против европейских стран.

Михаил Соколов: Вы согласны с тем, что Кремль ведет такую войну по разрушению Запада, западной цивилизации сознательно на всех фронтах, вмешивается в выборы? В Сирии не гибли люди под бомбами российскими?

Александр Ципко: Я согласен, что Россия пытается, Леня Радзиховский недавно очень хорошо сказал. Это явная переоценка. Такого рода разговоры, что Россия вмешивается и так далее – это работа на руку этим пиарщикам.

Михаил Соколов: Но ракеты летят, бомбы летят – это же реальные вещи.

Александр Ципко: Я немножко знаю Запад, мы явно переоцениваем влияние наших пиарщиков на внутреннюю жизнь на Западе.

Михаил Соколов: Влияние российских войск в Сирии есть.

Александр Ципко: Мы говорим в данном случае о влиянии на внутреннюю жизнь Запада, тут явно перебор. Я прекрасно понимаю опасность подобной внешней политики, но все-таки отождествление свастики и георгиевской ленточки, у меня внутренний какой-то протест. Потому что преступления, связанные со свастикой, преступления Холокоста, они титанические, громадные.

Михаил Соколов: А 10 тысяч погибших в Донбассе – это как, не титаническое для современной Европы?

Александр Ципко: Это тоже. Но тем не менее, у меня какой-то внутренний протест, они идет не ради политики, а с точки зрения, мне кажется, что мы, к сожалению, проводим эту политику, она идет от СССР. Кстати, Путин говорил, что СССР занимался политикой экспорта коммунизма, которая ни к чему не приводила. Вот это желание влиять на мир, когда уже утрачены экономические возможности, когда мир относится с каким-то удивлением – это бесперспективно. Я не верю, что современная Россия в состоянии кардинальным образом разрушить европейскую цивилизацию – это большое преувеличение.

Михаил Соколов: Ну, напакостить можно.

Александр Ципко: И напакостить даже не может.

Михаил Соколов: Вы оптимист, похоже. Статья у вас была пессимистичная по поводу угрозы миру.

Александр Ципко: Это же страшно, когда люди начинают рассуждать. Одно дело угроза войны появилась, я об этом пишу, но другое дело, что Россия, средства массовой информации, российское телевидение в состоянии повлиять на мозги Запада, изменить и так далее – это явное преувеличение. Это, кстати, работает на тех, кто работает там, они получат больше ассигнований, будут больше стараться.

Михаил Соколов: Кстати, о возможностях и ассигнованиях. Я не знаю, сколько денег было потрачено на парад, но ощущение такое, что на ветеранов тратится поменьше, чем на войну, а осталось их всего порядка ста тысяч. Мы сегодня спросили людей, что власть делает для тех, кто еще остался с нами.

Михаил Соколов: Александр Сергеевич, вы какое-то время поддерживали власть Путина своими публикациями, а теперь не обидно? Оказывается, время было такое, денег было много, возможности упущены, деньги растрачены, страна пустилась в разные авантюры, и вам приходится менять позицию.

Александр Ципко: Я действительно активно поддерживал политику Путина, особенно в отношении олигархов, когда он их заставил платить налоги за природные ископаемые. Это был дикий маразм, что люди делают миллиардные состояния на использовании природных ископаемых, не хотят платить налоги. Я помню, как люди Ходорковского в Думе в 2003 году скупали за 30-40 тысяч депутатов, которые голосовали против закона. Поэтому я активно поддерживал.

Михаил Соколов: Теперь есть Роснефтегаз, где пропадают все эти деньги.

Александр Ципко: Будем откровенны, мне более важно, пускай будет Роснефтегаз, чем Ходорковский и кто-то другой будет не платить налоги.

Михаил Соколов: Вот так был уничтожен плюрализм в России с вашей помощью.

Александр Ципко: Если говорить откровенно, не с моей помощью. Плюрализм был разрушен 4 октября 1993 года. Как вы не понимаете, если вы укрепляете власть при помощи расстрела людей, создаете эту конституцию, выборность самодержавия. Who created it?

Михаил Соколов: А кто его превратил в окончательную диктатуру?

Александр Ципко: Естественно, при таких условиях, учитывая, что были традиции 1990-х, традиции демократии, Ельцин имел все основания. В конце концов сам тот факт, что Ельцин имел право любого человека сделать кандидатом в президенты, команда Ельцина могла его превратить в героя. Как говорил, помните, Березовский: дайте миллиард, я коня вам сделаю.

Михаил Соколов: Ну и сделал.

Александр Ципко: Так поэтому, если говорить о корнях, надо смотреть, откуда пропала демократия.

Михаил Соколов: Мы сейчас уйдем в самодержавие XIX века, потом к Ивану Грозному.

Александр Ципко: Сам тот факт, что у нас не было политической силы – это трагедия, заинтересованной в подлинной демократии, в разделении власти.

Михаил Соколов: А она сейчас может появиться?

Александр Ципко: По моему глубокому убеждению – нет.

Mikhail Sokolov: Why? Смотрите, молодежь выходит, Навальный борется, а вы все в пессимизм.

Александр Ципко: Для меня Навальный отнюдь не олицетворение. У нас вообще любая оппозиция – это не демократия, это способ свержения власти, встать на это место. То есть любая оппозиция радикальная у нас делает ставку на радикальные методы. Если бы появился какой-то взрослый умный человек, какой-то даже бывший губернатор, чиновник, который предложил бы какую-то альтернативу.

Михаил Соколов: Не появится, а будет пятый срок Владимира Путина. Чеченский парламент предложил вообще снять все ограничения.

Александр Ципко: Это трагедия России. Потому что при сохранении такого типа самодержавия, такой идеологической жизни, которую мы видим сейчас, у России нет будущего. Она может сохраниться, но будущего развития нет.

Михаил Соколов: Об этом, я думаю, мы в следующий раз продолжим обязательно разговор.