Boris Desertsev

The host of the St. Petersburg hour of the Liberty Live program Viktor Rezunkov: The other day, the chairman of the Commission on Human Rights under the President of Russia Ella Pamfilova, harshly criticized the existing system of human rights protection. We will talk about this and much more with our guest today, chairman of the St. Petersburg human rights organization "Civil Control" by Boris Tustyntsev. Boris Pavlovich, I would like to ask you, they replaced the few known Kartashkin Ella Pamfilova, who is known to the whole country. What do you think will the situation in the country with human rights will change from this?

Boris Pustintsev: You are right that Kartashkin was practically not known in the country. In fact, only the most active part of the human rights community, which tried to force the authorities to observe international norms in the field of human rights. But I must say that in the Yeltsin period he was still teaching. In particular, on the proposal of Kartashkin, Yeltsin canceled his decree on the detention for 30 days of the suspects without charging, as well as a repressive decree on the expulsion of homeless people from cities, but under the regime of controlled democracy, Kartashkin quickly gained an old sports uniform. Remember how he called the Memorial an unconstructive public organization last year. Ella Aleksandrovna, on the contrary, is widely known. This is a politician of the federal level, constantly active in the social sphere, a former minister for many, she generally personifies the image of a national intercessor. And it is clear that letters are immediately in her address with a jamb. I am convinced that she will actively try to fight against administrative arbitrariness, which, as she suddenly discovered, grows rapidly, as she put it. But I suspect that she will limit her activity, mainly, protecting the social rights of citizens. As for the fundamental rights and protection of political freedoms, the state of which mainly characterizes the level of democracy in the country, in the interest in these problems, Ms. Pamfilova was the last time during the first Chechen war, when she vigorously protested against violation of the constitutional rights of citizens. But then it was not difficult. As you remember, then about 60 percent opposed the war, and without any unpleasant consequences for themselves. But will Ella Aleksandrovna be fighting today, for example, for the right of citizens to receive reliable information, for the revival of independent information funds, whether she will seek compliance with the constitutional right of citizens of draft age to alternative civil service, and it is the civil service, and not the totalitarian duties, which the younger-executive power has recently transmitted to the lawyer, will demand the legend of the Reaches. In power for massive violations of human rights in the Krasnodar Territory, for example, I’m afraid that there will be no. Her revelations at a press conference, in general, are quite eloquent. “Usually, our human rights activists are only fighting the authorities, but we should cooperate,” she says. Yes, we are cooperating every day, if Ella Pamfilova managed to oversleep this fact, then she will hardly be able to attract active human rights defenders to work in her commission, as she said, "people known for their human rights activities." The fact is that both the Soviet and the post -Soviet authorities were very successful in creating a mythical image of human rights activists as anarchists, as anti -state -owners, and Ella Aleksandrovna continues to be zealous in the planting of this vicious myth. To understand when the dense Alexei Kiva from the Kartashkin commission periodically carries such nonsense - we do not expect anything else from him, but when such a statement makes Ella Pamfilova, who has a reputation as a policy of democratic orientation, it becomes awkward for it. And in general, it seems to me that the super -task of this commission remains the same - to help the authorities, though more efficiently than before, to beat off the accusations of violating human rights.

Victor Rezunkov: It is interesting that Ella Pamfilova said, in fact, it seems to me a very important thing - she said that in 2001, about 2 million appeals of citizens were submitted to the authorities of various levels, half of which concerned the provision of human rights. Only 40 thousand citizens turned to the courts over the same period, which indicates the insolvency of the courts, and more than half a million messages came to the president, twice as much as in 1999. And she makes half -wraps - either the confidence of the people in the president has increased, or negative processes in the country are growing. What do you think about this?

Boris Pustintsev: A similar statement once again convinces me that Ella Alexandrovna is not ready for the upcoming work. But 7-8 years ago, where citizens wrote - of course, the authorities, and the higher - the better. This is a habit of subjects of a paternalistic state, it is natural. And how many citizens then went to court to protect their rights? Units. The fact that now for a year 40 thousand has turned - this is a tremendous progress. The formation of a democratic state in such a country as Russia is a very slow process.

Viktor Rezunkov: Boris Pavlovich, but the authorities traditionally accuse human rights activists of unwillingness to cooperate with them, and in St. Petersburg I noticed recently such a phenomenon that the authorities are accused of citizens are politically inactive, and citizens who have already desperately receive some response to their cries for help, create various small social organizations, try to the authorities in their lives. "Civil Control" collaborates with the authorities?

Boris deserts: after all, this is the political activity of citizens when they create their own organizations. Political activity does not mean at all that citizens are rushing massively supporting the president. I have already said that the authorities intensively impose the myth of the anarchist essence of human rights organizations. The situation is completely different. Human rights activists are not anarchists, but the most law -abiding people. They insist that the law is written for everyone, and demand that the law observe everything, including the power of various levels. And if the government reacts positively to civil initiatives, then it becomes our natural ally. We have common interests, and we work with her hand in hand in common projects. Let me give the last case. As we know, from St. Petersburg, as well as from other regions, police officers regularly leave for the North Caucasus. Formally - to carry out ordinary police service in those areas, in fact, they are often used as soldiers. And this is very bad, because they show themselves like bad soldiers, for soldiers and a policeman are two different professions, and returning here, they already lose absolutely all the skills of police work, and what happens to them, with their heads, we also know. When the policeman recently shot the Lomonosov schoolboy at the metro, before that he spent three months in Chechnya, he was asked what you were doing in Chechnya, he said: "Yes, the same."

We cannot stop the war in Chechnya. We cannot prevent the package of policemen to the North Caucasus, but we can try to at least minimize their degradation there. And so we proposed the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the system of the General Prosecutor's Office to conduct lectures, to carry out a kind of educational program for each group that departs to the North Caucasus. In order not to his brother - the policeman lectures on what they should do, should not, the policeman who will always cover them, even the higher, and the prosecutors - what awaits them for violation of the rights of the civilian population in the North Caucasus, starting from administrative and ending with criminal liability, with the provision of specific examples. Still, a small amount of affairs, but is excited by the military prosecutor's office. Then we proposed to create a training film based on these lectures and use it as a textbook in educational centers. We did not have any special hopes for the embodiment of this idea, although we found prosecutors at the Law Institute of the General Prosecutor's Office who agreed to give such lectures. Suddenly enough, unexpectedly for us, the Ministry of Internal Affairs showed a complete understanding of the problem, and now such lectures are preparing. The next group drives away in September and will listen to these lectures. Similar examples in the field of judicial reform, in the field of protecting the rights of such groups as children, military personnel, refugees, I can cite quite a lot where we cooperate with the authorities.

Victor Rezunkov: Boris Pavlovich, but there is no hope at Ella Pamfilov?

Boris Desertsev: Well, everything happens. After all, when the Parliamentary Commissioner for Rights Oleg Mironov began his activities in 1996, having no idea about what human rights such, maybe even less versed than Ella Aleksandrovna. I remember my polemic with him in the radio program at that time, he was a notorious communist, he was going to protect the human rights from the position of a totalitarian state. That is, according to the previous Soviet ideas - the crane flows - we will fix it, we will not give a certificate of the interior - we will help, but not to criticize the power. Look at him today, he sometimes criticizes power for violations of the constitutional rights of citizens no worse than human rights activists. Maybe Ella Aleksandrovna, as they say, will overlap if she is a conscientious person, what I really hope for. True, Mironov is a lawyer, here his professionalism obviously prevailed over political addictions. Ms. Pamfilova with political addictions is still worse while continuous regression.

Victor Rezunkov: What do you mean?

Boris Pustintsev: that she at one time even belonged to the "democratic choice of Russia", and today she even declares herself as an independent policy, but willingly, easily agreed to lead a rather decorative commission under the president.

Victor Rezunkov: Boris Pavlovich, I wanted to talk to you about the situation in St. Petersburg on the eve of the election to the Legislative Assembly. Recently, a rally of human rights organizations at the prosecutor’s office, could you say a few words on this topic?

Boris Pustintsev: I, unfortunately, was away at this time.

Victor Rezunkov: But recently, Sergey Adamovich Kovalev expressed an interesting thought - he said that Boris Yeltsin did a lot to discredit the very concept of the word "democracy" in Russia - how do you feel about this?

Boris Pustintsev: Perhaps this is the rare case when I categorically disagree with my old friend Sergei Kovalev. I believe that democracy is much more discredited, for example, strangling independent means of information. Remember Yeltsin - he did not water him, as they say, only lazy, he did not repress a single journalist. The Putin period began with repressions against your colleague Andrei Babitsky. Under Yeltsin, everyone knew that if an official of any rank allows himself a chauvinistic, anti -Semitic, anti -Caucasian statement, then his days were numbered, everyone knew that political extremists for Yeltsin were political opponents, and this had a restraining influence on racist sentiments that always smoldering in Russian society. Instead of one Kondratenko, we already have several Governors-Racists, and as for Kondratenko himself, the formal head of the Unity party, Minister Shoigu, when Kondratenko left the political scene, said that he was very sorry that Kondratenko was leaving, and he hopes that Kondratenko would change his mind, and in this case “unity” will support him. Officials and in general citizens in the field very quickly catch such signals, so I would not say that Yeltsin is guilty of such acts. Yeltsin, on the contrary, built a vector of movement for the entire time of his reign - closer to Europe.