Nikolai Samulevich

The host of the St. Petersburg hour of the Freedom Time program Olga Pispanen: On April 8, International Gypsies Day are celebrated. What is the gypsy society today? We will discuss his problems in modern Russia and abroad today on the air of Radio Liberty with Nikolai Samulevich, chairman of the inter-regional public organization "The Gypsy Community of the North-West." First, let's listen to a report on the topic that we will discuss. What is the gypsy society today, what is its situation in modern Russia and St. Petersburg? About this in the report of the Radio correspondent Freedom Tatyana Voltskaya:

Tatyana Voltskaya: The last census of the population showed that about 200 thousand gypsies live in Russia. But these data are clearly underestimated. Many people are recorded in official documents by Moldovans or Hungarians. According to various estimates, gypsies in the country from 500 thousand to a million. In recent years, the migration of gypsies to Russia from the former Soviet republics has increased. The most noticeable Central Asian gypsies - “Lulia”, Hungarian gypsies from Transcarpathia - “Magyars”, Moldavian gypsies who often sing in electric trains, and local residents, most of whom were born and grew up, settled, and Russian -Roma - Russian gypsies, and “Kotlyars” living in large sophisticated tabers. In the Leningrad Region, there are such tabers in the village of Pers, in Novgorod - in the village of GUDOVO.

Today in St. Petersburg a round table is held, dedicated to the problem of gypsy education, to which gypsy barons from these tabers are invited. Low level of education, poverty, inorganization lead to insecurity gypsies. They also need protection because the increased aggression of neo -Nazis is also turned to them. In the media, some attacks were highlighted, including the murder of a five -year -old gypsy girl in the fall of last year at the Dachny platform. In fact, says the head of the North -West Center for Social and Legal Protection of Roma - Gypsy - Stefania Kulaev, there are much more such cases.

Stefania Kulaev: A month before, on August 17, a woman from the "Magyar" gypsy settlement, 47-year-old Anna Forkash, mother-heroine, mother of eight children, she was killed by skinheads, and they were even detained, but very quickly released.

Tatyana Voltskaya: Two years ago, the gypsies did not know such a word - skinheads. Now even small children know him, no one else dares to walk and travel by train alone. The danger to gypsies increases due to their compact residence - everyone knows where the camp is located, and it is easy to attack it. Employees of the Gypsy Center asked the 15-year-old young man who earnings in electric trains.

Stefania Kulaev: When asked whether they beat you, he begins a long list: they beat the skinheads there, fans there, they threw it out of the train, the police beat constantly, the harmonica pierced the screwdriver. But my 9-year-old brother on March 5 at the Lenin Square metro station was beaten by policemen. He asked for alms, played in an accordion, a 9-year-old child was brought into the "point" at the metro station, and drunken police were beaten by five.

Tatyana Voltskaya: Thus, the escalation of violence is aggravated by a hostile attitude to the gypsies of law enforcement agencies, which, as a rule, cannot be expected from assistance.

Olga Pispanen: Nikolai Ivanovich, so you listened to the report, according to your data, now how great the community of the Gypsies?

Nikolai Samulevich: First of all, I would like to comment on this material. The correspondent spoke about the camps that stand in the Leningrad Region. It is necessary to correctly understand what a camp is. Tabor today is conditional, because in the village of Pers people live in their homes, and this is not a camp. The tabor in the original sense of the word is a group of carts that are somewhere in nature, by the river, in the forest. And the camp is a group of people united by kinship. Today, tabers are temporary with us, only in the summer Tabers of Gypsies come here, it was already mentioned here about Lulia, which were built by the country, where a sad incident occurred, they drive up from Volgograd, run around, people are now not on horses, but on cars, become a camp somewhere on the mountain, near the river.

And I would still like to argue with the author about the number of gypsies. She is right, the last census that was conducted in Russia, Gypsies, I can say authoritatively, practically did not touch. Why? Because in many gypsy houses, scribes simply did not reach. The gypsies themselves are hidden, and since ancient times in the blood of the gypsies to be afraid of every official. At 90 percent of the houses of gypsies, of course, scribes did not hit. Another question is that in connection with the commissioning of new passports, the nationality in passports has been lost, and therefore it is impossible to count gypsies today. Another question is that 200 thousand - of course, the author said gently, because in the Leningrad region there are about 15 thousand gypsy families, and multiply the middle family of gypsy by five. This is only in the Leningrad region. In St. Petersburg, in the city itself, officially, according to the early 70s, there were 4 thousand families, today, of course, there are much more of them. If we talk about St. Petersburg, these are three districts-Krasnoselsky, Petrodvortsovy and Krasnogvardeisky, here are three districts where gypsies live compactly. As for the number of gypsies in everything in Russia, I can’t agree, since we have 6 thousand families of the Valnoye in the Pskov region, and there, too, multiply by at least five. So not 200 thousand, and not a million, much more.

Olga Pispanen: This was just the correspondent in the report that the data is very underestimated. Please tell me, in Soviet times in 1956, a decree prohibiting the gypsies to lead a nomadic lifestyle, which, in fact, has apparently became a real tragedy for several even generations of the gypsies. Now the gypsies are required to lead a sedentary lifestyle, have a constant residence permit, work?

Nikolai Samulevich: You obviously mean the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the RSFSR number 685 of October 20, 1956. It was called: "On the familiarization of the gypsies engaged in vagrancy", and the decree provided punitive sanctions for members of nomadic tabors, so after the decree, almost all the gypsies switched to a sedentary lifestyle. This decree was fundamentally changed by the life and position of the gypsies in the Soviet Union - many camps that wandered, settled where they were at that time. I have already said that there were practically no strangers in the Tabor, there were families that are connected with each other with related relationships, the so -called clan tabs, where they wandered, settled there. Each tachbox had its own range of nomadic, the range, which they knew well, knew where you could stop, where good water, a good village, a good meadow. They wandered from year to year, from a century to the century in this area, and did not move on. Therefore, where the decree found, for example, we will take a fairly well -known family for example, and I must say that in the gypsy world, familiarity, grandfather, father, children, grandchildren are very well traced, and all children of the next after the ancestor have his name, the whole clan receives one name, which the gypsies only know in Russia, and everywhere in Russia, according to this name, and according to this name, and according to this name, and according to this name. Seeing away. Of course, in the future, every son or grandson, or daughter earn their authority, nevertheless, the authority of the progenitor, the authority of the father is very great. Therefore, in the Pskov region a rather famous family, in 1956 they found a decree, and they settled there, the city of the island of the Pskov region, bought houses there. But I must say that in 1956 the state gave the gypsies at home for free, and hired them then during this period. There was an unspoken indication of the gypsies to take, in no case to refuse, it is today and in the future they are not taken to work anywhere, and then it was easier. Thus, hundreds of thousands of gypsies settled where they were, in their beloved area, and began to live saddened.

Olga Pispanen: Nikolai Ivanovich, The most common image of gypsies in modern information means is the image of a drug dealer, a criminal element, why did this situation have? Is it really so?

Nikolai Samulevich: The situation now with the image of a modern gypsy is quite critical. Indeed, they think about gypsies either this way or otherwise. There are several reasons. This is the closeness of gypsy life, I must say that the gypsies since the time of Peter the Great, I mean Russian gypsies, and not only, they always led a closed lifestyle.

Olga Pispanen: Why are the gypsies so afraid to let others into their lives?

Nikolai Samulevich: For self -preservation. The fact is that the education of gypsies from generation to generation went in closed families, and therefore they are preserved today. And if they opened since the time of Peter the Great, there would have been no gypsies today. By the way, they are dying out, but this is the topic of another conversation. And the image of a gypsy - either a criminal or beggars - has been known for a long time. The myth of the gypsy wanders, to put it mildly, with the light hand of journalists, who, without understanding and not knowing the topic, give the air "fried" materials. When I read materials about my people, it sometimes surprises me how illiterate and stupidly the material about gypsies is served. I understand that the press is commercial, and that tedious reports that are not interesting for other people, no journalist will write any journalist about gypsies. Although it can be noted that today the situation is already improving, thanks to our gypsies, there are a lot of them. Tsyganologists are those who are engaged in the science of gypsies. There are a lot of honest journalists who began to write the truth about gypsies, to finally reveal their image, identity, talent, today, thank God, normal reports about gypsies and their lives appear in the press.

Olga Pispanen: Do the gypsies have their own media, newspapers?

Nikolai Samulevich: Yes, there is, and this is due to the fact that in Russia and not only, abroad, too, the gypsy public movement has already gained strength, like a powerful shaft, it is supported by the state, say, in France they are still wandering there, but they are wandering in their cars, and so, the French government pays for the gypsies. This is the topic of education. In Sweden, Germany, Denmark, but everywhere abroad to the gypsy the government is so respectful that we only have to dream about it.

Olga Pispanen: Is there any teaching of the Roma language in Russia in Russia?

Nikolai Samulevich: The fact is that just a week ago I returned from Moscow. In Moscow, a conference of scientists was held regarding the formation of gypsies, and I must say that scientists, people from the places, as they say, the leaders of gypsy organizations reported that the picture, unfortunately, today is joyless. It is practically as follows: the gypsy children do not go to school. 99 percent of gypsy children do not go to school, for various reasons. The main reasons are economic and, I would say, political, because in our Russian schools you know what the situation, and the gypsies of their children are not allowed into school in order to somehow save them for their family. And in the villages in the Pskov region, Vologda, Novgorod, 90 percent of gypsies are the poorest segments of the population, and, in fact, the gypsy people for the most part, one might say, on a social day. The main occupation of the gypsies during socialism was trade. Capitalism brought prosperity to Russia, fullness of market goods, and the gypsy people left the market, and he does not know how to do anything else. Generally speaking, the main occupation of gypsies is cattle breeding, horses, cattle, but in the cities of cattle there is nowhere to keep. You can keep it in the villages, but today people have no means to keep a horse, a cow, or pigs. Although they are trying to survive a lot, I must say that the gypsies have their rich people, businessmen, but this is an insignificant percentage. And these mansions, which often, as “fried” facts are shown by journalists, in the main mass it is a drop in the sea, and these people do not determine the economic situation of the gypsies.

Olga Pispanen: We have a listener on the air.

Ruben: Good morning. My name is Ruben. I want to say that recently in Moscow there was a very large conference, and it was devoted to counteracting inciting interethnic growth. It was organized by the Moscow Human Rights Bureau. There were many Jewish organizations, and others too. And the human rights activists spoke not only about skinheads, but also about people who are in information with scientific authority, well -known lawyers and psychiatrists, here are the former chief psychiatrist of Leningrad, they, based on their scientific authority, actively incurred interethnic disorder. It said about representatives of various communities of the South Caucasus, Jewish organizations, gypsies were not there at all. I want to ask, as the representative of the Gypsy community believes, with the help of enlightenment of people, you can somehow rectify the situation, and in Europe reports are written about the Roman and Synthi rights, we practically do not have this. What do you think you can do?

Nikolai Samulevich: Thank you for the question. We have human rights organizations, there are representatives, unfortunately, only in Moscow, who protect the rights of the gypsies, a very famous artist, a gypsy researcher Nikolai Bessonov, we are very grateful to him, he has already issued two or three books about the situation of the gypsies in Russia and the attitude to the press. We have now gone a mass gypsy public movement, in particular, a newspaper of public gypsy organizations has recently been created, which is headed by a famous person - Georgy Nikolaevich Tsvetkov. We are grateful to him too. We entered this union, this is a man with a name, a writer, so many people today are voting in defense of the gypsies.

Olga Pispanen: Before continuing our conversation, let's listen to another report. In the process of preparing for the entry of Slovakia to the EU, the solution of the gypsy problem in the country did not satisfy European representatives. The brutal attitude of the police towards the gypsies, the illegal sterilization of gypsy women, the attacks of the shaft -headed are only part of the scandals that presented Slovakia in an unprofitable light. However, the recent mass riots organized by gypsies in the east of Slovakia, according to some observers, showed the other side of the problem. Says the Radio Liberty correspondent in Bratislava Inna Earth:

Inna Earth: according to the reports of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Slovakia, the situation in the east of the country where most of the gypsy population lives, is stabilized. The payment of reduced social benefits, according to observers, went without conflicts. However, according to the analyst of the Institute for Public Issues, Martina Yuraskova, the situation in the gypsy regions remains tense.

Martina Yuraskova: If in the near future this problem, reminiscent of a bomb with an hourly mechanism, will not be solved, then ultimately it will become dangerous for the whole Slovak society.

Inna earthen: the gypsy problem in Slovakia worsened in connection with the new law, which significantly reduces cash benefits from the state. The Minister of Social Affairs of Slovakia Louis Kanik believes that the new law should motivate people to look for work. He does not perceive the gypsies as a specific social group, to which a different approach is needed. According to the minister, the government in its social policy on the right path. “Finally, from the theoretical plane we moved to a real solution to gypsy problems,” said Louis Kanik. However, social workers in the gypsy regions believe that it is difficult for gypsies to find a job. The reason is the low education and prejudice of the so -called "white" to representatives of the gypsy minority. In their opinion, a vicious circle turned out: the gypsies are forced to work, but there is no work for them, so they believe that the state should look for other ways to solve a gypsy problem. After the expansion of the European Union, some of its representatives suggest the migration of Slovak gypsies to the west. Therefore, today they insist on solving a gypsy problem in Slovakia, promising to help with money. EU representatives, together with the Slovak government, intend to look for the possibility of mitigating the consequences of social reforms for gypsies. However, according to international experts, Slovakia needs to develop a clear strategy that would affect the mentality of the gypsies and contribute to their adaptation in society.

Olga Pispanen: Nikolai Ivanovich, this is the situation in Slovakia, where in fact the gypsies have quite serious social problems. Is it possible to somehow solve this problem in Russia?

Nikolai Samulevich: Yes, you know, in Slovakia in restaurants there are signs "gypsies and dogs are prohibited".

Olga Pispanen: hung.

Nikolai Samulevich: Yes, hung. Now they have taken up their people, but it was recently, in restaurants and public places, the signs of "gypsies and dogs were prohibited" how prohibited "how the people were in the position of the animal. In Russia now I spoke about Nikolai Bessonov, Georgy Nikolaevich Tsvetkov, Demeters, today the intelligentsia, the best part of the gypsies, by the way, we have many doctors, there are many engineers in St. Petersburg, there are even a little scientists, of course, there are few of them, a drop in the sea, nevertheless, this is the best part of the gypsy people, and now we began work with Georgy Nikolayevich Tsvetkov. According to the gypsies by the national minority in Russia, this is the only way out of the situation. The gypsies are not recognized today in any way. Any official to whom I have to go for three years, firstly, must tell you that at the level of officials the gypsies are perceived separately, which means that you just have to come to the official to solve some problem, he immediately raises the set of laws-it does not make it all, the issue ends on this.

Olga Pispanen: But do Russian gypsies have a Russian passport?

Nikolai Samulevich: Yes, they have a Russian passport, but are not a national minority. So, in the apparatus of the Commissioner for Human Rights, then it was Mironov, today it is a different person, however, a report on the situation of the gypsies is being prepared, in all likelihood, he will be heard by the State Duma, and apparently the law will be adopted, at least we are conducting the case to recognize the gypsies in Russia by a national minority. Then they are already falling under the law on national minorities, then it will be possible to resolve the issue of education and opening somewhere in the institutions of pedagogical, maybe optional education of teachers for gypsies, then in schools where gypsies go compactly, it will be possible to have their own teacher. But this is after the adoption of the law, and for its adoption, the efforts of many are necessary, both the intelligentsia and scientists, including Russian, of course, not those that the listener spoke of, but truly rooting for Russia, and gypsies are part of Russia. At one time, Stalin, if my memory does not change me, when Roosevelt invited him to pick up the gypsies, said: "Gypsies are Russian flowers. I will not give my gypsies." Therefore, gypsies are Russian flowers, it is an integral part of Russia. We came here with Peter the Great, we are already here for 300 years, and we have no other homeland. We just talked about it now, that many nationalities live here, but all diasporas have their own states, they help them, but the gypsies do not.

Olga Pispanen: Do the gypsies want their state?

Nikolai Samulevich: No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about diasporas, which are a lot, and each diaspora has its own state that helps them. У цыган же Россия - мать родная, вот только для России мы пасынки. У нас кроме России нет никакой другой родины, и поэтому мы будем здесь жить, здесь мы родились, здесь умрем, здесь будут жить наши дети и внуки.

Olga Pispanen: We have a listener on the air.

Николай Понтюхов: Добрый день, майор запаса Понтюхов Николай Николаевич. Николай Иванович, поздравляю вас с Международным днем цыган. Желаю вашей национальности дальнейших успехов. Меня, конечно, очень сильно поражает такое отвратительное явление, как скинхеды. Николай Иванович, вы же прекрасно понимаете, что у нас в стране сегодня к власти пришли сионисты, а чтобы держаться им у власти, им нужна межнациональная рознь, они ее специально разжигают. И эти скинхеды - они их как раз поддерживают. При этом говорят, что русские националисты...

Ольга Писпанен: Хотелось бы все-таки вернуться к вопросу о ксенофобии. Николай Иванович, по вашему мнению, изменился все-таки сам тип нетерпимости? Если раньше, например, это было больше бытовая ксенофобия, просто цыгане не такие, как мы, другие, кочуют почему-то, у них очень много детей, гадают, что-то знают больше, а сейчас это, видимо, более социальная ксенофобия, причисление цыган к тем самым так называемым "лицам кавказской национальности", то есть темнокожим.

Николай Самулевич: Могу сказать, что у нас 9 отделений нашей организации по Северо-Западу, и по сути дела мне приходится жить в машине. То там случается, то там. У нас телефон для цыганского народа как скорая помощь. Этот телефон - 812/130 49 30 - телефон в Санкт-Петербурге. Так вот, мне приходится часто ездить, и до Пскова 9 постов, и умудряются гаишники остановить на каждом посту, обязательно проверить как "лицо кавказской национальности". Ксенофобия сегодня в России - это проблема политическая, проблема демократической власти, я бы не хотел называть ее демократической, которая не способна навести порядок в стране. Скинхеды - это социальное зло России, это пена, которая всплыла в связи с так называемыми реформами в течение 10 лет. Но ясно, что кто-то эту нечисть подогревает, кто-то постоянно мешает эту мешанину, с тем, чтобы ничего не понимающие молодые люди выполняли приказ так называемого старшего. Понятно, что это кому-то надо. Но я не склонен обвинять Владимира Владимировича Путина. Думаю, что он наведет порядок.

Ольга Писпанен: Давайте в заключение послушаем еще один звонок.

Слушатель: Я хочу еще обратить внимание на такого писателя вредного - Мериме, что он писал о цыганах 200 лет назад почти. У нас ко всем относятся хорошо, если люди не занимаются криминалом, если честно работают. Но я таких цыган пока не видел. Постоянно вижу попрошаек, которые лезут в карманы... Вы не хотите заниматься лучше тем, чтобы цыгане учились работать, какое-нибудь профессиональное образование получали?

Николай Самулевич: Я люблю Мериме, только о цыганах я у него ничего не читал. Тем не менее, вы говорите, цыгане - попрошайки. Сегодня попрошаек - русских цыган практически нет. В этом я уверен. Летом это так называемые цыгане "люля", узбекские, которые заплывают к нам на лето. Так называемые сезонные наплывы. А наши русские цыгане, кто уже в третьем, десятом поколении живет здесь, уже на вокзалах не просят. Так что вы живете прошлым временем.