Summit in Istanbul

Andrei Shari is discussing the OSCE summit in Istanbul and the development of relations between the West and Russia in connection with the war in Chechnya with the international radio observer Radio Liberty Giovanni Bencie and the director of the European Studies Center for the Institute and Canada in Moscow by Professor Yuri Davydov. The program also provides an excerpt from a speech at the US President Bill Clinton.

Andrey Sharry:

Today, in Istanbul, a meeting was solemnly opened in the top of the OSCE, in which the heads of state and governments of the 53rd countries participate, the agenda of this international conference is extensive, but the attention of many international observers and our attention is also attracted, first of all, the Chechen problems and further relations of the West and Russia. We will discuss this topic. So, I very briefly remind you of the chronology of the events of today. In the morning, Russian President Boris Yeltsin spoke at the Summit in Istanbul, saying that the West has no right to criticize Russia for a military operation in Chechnya. President Yeltsin said that the European Security Charter should be signed today, before the departure of the Russian delegation. A little earlier, the chairman of the OSCE Knut Vollebek proposed to transfer the signing of the Charter for tomorrow, since some proposals of the document remain disagreed. Then, at the plenary meeting, US President Bill Clinton performed.

Bill Clinton:

We want Russia to stop the rampant terrorism and lawlessness. We believe that Russia not only has the right, but it is obliged to protect its territorial integrity. We want to see Russia with a stable, rich, strong democracy with a safe border, a strong defense and a leading voice in the development of world relations.

Most people criticizing Russia in Chechnya condemn the extremism and violence of the Chechen side, and support Russia's goals: to maintain the country's territorial integrity and stop terrorism and violence. At the same time, they argue that the methods that Russia has chosen for this undermine the possibility of achieving the goal. While the attacks on the civilian population, extremism that Russia wants to stop continuing, will only intensify the sovereignty that Russia is rightfully protecting, can be rejected by ordinary Chechens who will not think about terror, but about the confrontation of Russian intervention. The goals that Russia rightfully pursue will be drowned in an ongoing cycle of violence. The process of Russia's integration into the world community, which we welcome so, will be stalled. Friends of Russia unanimously agree on what should happen in Chechnya: adequate means of suppressing terrorism, protecting innocent civilians, and ensuring the safe return of refugees. In other words, in order to isolate terrorists, political dialogue and political means of resolving the problem are needed.

Andrey Sharry:

These were excerpts from Bill Clinton's five -minute performance at a meeting in Istanbul. Western information agencies note that for the first time in their comments, the Russian media - the ORT and NTV television companies, the ITAR - TASS and Russia information agencies say that President Clinton fully supported the Russian policy in the military campaign in Chechnya, however, they do not say a word that there was another part of Clinton’s statement, in which there was criticism of the Russian authorities. I will ask Giovanni Benxi to comment on this moment.

Giovanni Bensi:

Yes, I also saw in the Russian media, first of all, in the messages of ITAR-TASS, which it says that Clinton actually supported the position of Russia and so on. In my opinion, this is a misunderstanding, because in the whole dispute that has been in Istanbul two points must be divided. There is a struggle against international terrorism, and no one condemns Russia for this struggle. International terrorism exists, many Western countries have become its victims. In the very last time, Russia experienced what it is. There are evidence that the Chechen extremists maintained ties with some famous international terrorists, such as the Saudi terrorist Ben-Lladin and so on. The fight against international terrorism is a holy cause. All states are engaged in this, and no one condemns Russia for the fact that it also does this, does not condemn it for this and Clinton. On the other hand, there is disproportion of funds that are now used in Chechnya in order to fight this evil. And this is a common opinion, not only Clinton, but also, for example, Shirak, President of France and Shreder - Chancellor of Germany, and Romano Prodi - the chairman of the European Commission, the general opinion that these funds are a full -scale war, which is now in Chechnya, disproportionate. As Clinton correctly said, the use of such means can just encourage the extremism that Russia wants to fight.

Andrey Sharry:

At Istanbul, our correspondent Arkady Dubnov works at the Summit. Arkady, are any details of the meeting of Boris Yeltsin and Bill Clinton known?

Arkady Dubnov:

So far, there are details that Sergei Prikhodko, deputy assistant to the President of Russia for international issues, said. He said that the meeting lasted more than an hour, it was very frank, by the way, in addition to the presidents, ministers took part on the Russian side: defense - Sergeyev and foreign affairs - Ivanov, and Sergei Prikhodko himself. With American - Secretary of State Madlin Olbraite, and also assistant to the president of the SSR for National Security Samuel Berger. So, the meeting was dedicated to three topics. First: discussing US proposals to exit the pro. The second is the situation in Europe, and the third is Chechnya. On the third topic, Yeltsin made very rigid statements. As Prikhodko said, he personally got the impression that the American side was ready to consult the arguments of Russia. It is difficult to say what this formulation of Prikhodko means. How much, it is adequate to the future position of the United States, I do not presume to say, and I'm afraid that this is some exaggeration. Nevertheless, now the situation is as follows: the conference of the chairman at the Summit of the Knutus Vollebek has just ended. who said that today the Charter will not be signed, but will be postponed tomorrow. To the questions of journalists about how Russia will be signed then, since President Yeltsin must leave today, he answered in the way that the Foreign Minister Ivanov will remain. This is somewhat not linked with the position of Yeltsin himself at the plenary meeting today.

Andrey Sharry:

I will complement what Arkady told us: we just received a message from the British news agency Reuters: “Western delegations said that the text of the security charter in Europe was ready, however, the Western countries would like Russia to agree to bring some provisions regarding the situation in Chechnya. However, the consent of the Russian delegation has not yet been able to achieve.” Even the agency does not give details. Professor Davydov, please tell me how you assess the first results of the summit? What is the meeting, good or bad what happened in Istanbul, and how will the relations of Clinton and Yeltsin develop after the meeting?

Yuri Davydov:

Apparently, what happened, many Russian newspapers wrote about this, that President Yeltsin and in general the Russian delegation at the summit in Istanbul will be quite difficult, since Chechen events give the Western community a reason for criticism. It seems to me that from the very beginning it was decided to somehow intercept the initiative from the West. Therefore, Yeltsin performed quite hard today early in the morning with his analysis of events in Chechnya and the rights of the West to teach Russia how to deal with terrorism. But I think that all this was expected, and criticism too. It seems to me that the meaning of what happened next, especially when Yeltsin and Clinton went out half-banging, although they did not agree on anything, but the Russian and American president tried to demonstrate that nothing terrible happened, that the Russian delegation, of course, had to somehow show that not everyone was so harshly criticized by Chechnya, like Shirak and Schroeder. Russia wanted to show that, after all, “friend Bill” came softer, and although he then said that he could not agree and could not convince Moscow, nevertheless, there is some kind of discrepancy in the positions of the West. And Russia, as before the USSR, has always dreamed of breaking some kind of wedge between Western Europe and the USA. I also do not really understand the deliberately tough Russian position expressed at the summit. The fact is that events in Chechnya itself spontaneously develop towards political settlement. It was in Hudermmes, it was today in Achkhoy-Martan, when the local population actually expelled militants, terrorists and completely normal, without a single shot, Russian troops entering the Achhai-Martan. In my opinion, it would be better for Russia, having listened to Western criticism to say: "Well, let's think about what we can do jointly, and what are our conditions of possible political dialogue, if there is someone to talk to." But, probably, in Chechnya, as events show, there is someone to talk to. So it would be necessary to outline some conditions, put forward some criteria for this dialogue-what we are ready to go, what we are ready to give in, and what not, is the West to help us in this matter. It seems to me that this position would be more constructive.

Andrey Sharry:

Giovanni Bensi, what do you think, why the Russian position in Istanbul turned out to be the way it turned out to be, in other words, why did Boris Yeltsin and his delegations did not want to demonstrate at least some of the fraction of the constructiveness that our interlocutor Yuri Davydov spoke about?

Giovanni Bensi:

I think that certain psychological moments play a big role than political actually. Russia has long, since the collapse of the USSR, actually suffers that de facto it has lost the status of a great power, at least the status of superpower. It remains a great power, but this is no longer a superpower. As far as one can judge, according to articles in newspapers and according to the statements of people from different camps of Russia, it is felt as the loss of something significant. Of course, the old Russian complex also affects that "the West does not understand us" that there is some kind of bias in relation to Russia. I think that this point of view or psychological mood affects so that any criticism from the West is perceived as a hostile act, which, in fact, is wrong. Of course, there are differences in the interests of Russia and Western countries, the EU, the USA, and so on. But this is normal and happens in international relations between all states. But this tendency, which Yeltsin and others also show, will not talk about some more extremist circles in Russian political life, we will not talk about Zyuganov or Zhirinovsky, who say it is very terrible that “they say, there is some kind of conspiracy against Russia” and so on. But, the tendency to see in any criticism a hostile act, this trend, in my opinion, should be overcome. I have no doubt that over time, after passing another period in the history of Russia, this will be understood. I would like to emphasize that Clinton himself, who in Istanbul performed softerly than some other Western leaders - Shirak and Schroeder, he said that, in principle, Russia is among friends, such is the meaning of his words, and therefore it should not bristle against everyone, as a hedgehog that rejects all influence from the outside. I think that in this regard, maybe such events as the Istanbul summit, can influence the further development of Russian policy regardless of Chechnya.

Andrey Sharry:

I agree with you, although I think that such meetings as a summit in Istanbul, in principle, are not able to solve large international problems. In general, this is a “party”, if this word is forgiven for me, it is a meeting at the top where people gather, discuss some things and leave. Nevertheless, in fact, the Russian delegation claps the door. Yeltsin leaves tonight, if the charter is signed, then it will be signed without him. Obviously, thereby Russia makes it clear that its position will not change. Professor Davydov, what do you think, what are the possibilities for further rapprochement or divergence of the positions of Russia and the West on the Chechen problem? In other words, the cooling between Russia and the West will last, or will it still be overcome in some way?

Yuri Davydov:

Maybe both. It all depends on the internal situation in Russia. First of all, from her. We must consider that the Kremlin and the current president need to not only solve the Chechen problem, but he needs victory. The end of the ten-year period of Yeltsin is coming, and under the curtain you need to do something such enchanting to be remembered, something like a Falkland war. It seems to me that this attitude greatly affects the position of the Russian political elite, and the mass consciousness too. It is no coincidence that this war is supported somewhere in the broad masses in Russia. There is a more important question: what does Russia always object to? Against intervention in internal affairs. “These are our internal problems,” she says, although foreigners were killed there, cut off their heads, and even Yeltsin himself said today that this is a properly popular problem, and at the same time Russia would not want the West to tell her that it should do within the country. This is a problem that arises in the agenda of Russian -western relations not for the first time, and apparently, it will also arise in the future, whoever was in power in Russia. You need to be, probably, patient and remember that clapping the door to any or the other side never leads to a solution to any problem. I think that the Cold War will not return. I think that statesmen on the same direction still have enough common sense, so as not to go down to such a level.

Andrey Sharry:

The last question I turn to Giovanni Bensi: what do you think, to what measure can Western countries show an understanding of domestic political reasons that move the President of Russia in his desire to achieve an impressive victory in the last year of his stay at the president’s post?

Giovanni Bensi:

Newspapers write about this, and commentators and politicians in the West are said. True, Russian newspapers also write that now when assessing what is happening in Chechnya, it is necessary, of course, to take into account the internal situation in Russia, and, above all, the proximity of the elections - parliamentary in December and the presidential in June next year. Of course, this is true that a significant part of the Russian population supports the policy of the government and the Kremlin in Chechnya, because everyone is impressed by the terrible terrorist attacks that were in Moscow and other cities, although it is still not finally proven that they are committed by Chechens, but people are being held and the situation arises that the victory in Chechnya seems to precede the election victory. No wonder the popularity of Prime Minister Putin is growing, and Yeltsin still adheres to the point of view that Putin is his elected candidate for the presidency this year. Therefore, all these factors of domestic policy are undoubtedly taken into account in the Western media and the judgments of Western politicians. I repeat, so Clinton performed in Istanbul not so sharply, because it is clear that there are such factors. But the main problem remains: the fact that the fight against terrorism by means of war, the fight against violence through violence is a path that can lead to very dangerous and incorrect results.

Andrey Sharry:

Russia and Western countries at a meeting at the top of the OSCE - the theme of our conversation. The last thing I would like to complete it: just, at about 17 hours Moscow time, we received a message that President Yeltsin left the summit in Istanbul.

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  Andrey Shary

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