Myths that we choose:

Father - writer Leonid Zorin - author of the Warsaw Melody, Tsarist Hunt, Pokrovsky Gate and forty -two plays and four novels, which wrote the memoir novel “Opening” - a kind of biography of his time over the past two years, and “Green Notebooks” - a set of various records covering more than half a century. All topics of today's conversation are generated by this book dedicated to the "Son and Friend Andrei Zorin." Son - Andrei Zorin - Associate Professor of the Department of Russian Literature of the Russian State Humanitarian University, a scientist, giving lectures at Harvard and at European Universities, Chairman of last year's jury of the Buker Prize. Generations “x” Leonid Zorin: I lived the life of a lone wolf, and this corresponded to my nature. And every person is interesting to me by itself - not as a particle of society or his circle. The "Circle" has a huge leveling force, the personality noticeably loses the price. As far as I remember myself, I remember so much this repulsion from any set, including the generational one. He never felt like a particle of his generation, believed that the sixties were a myth: the sixties began with the defeat of artists in the arena, and ended with the crucifixion of Czechoslovakia. Even my friends were of different generations: the closest and most deep friend, journalist Yakov Gick was 25 years older than me. My relationship with my father was not just the relationship of my father with my son, but two people similar in spirit and views of people. I endlessly cherished friendship with director Andrei Mikhailovich Lobanov, who turned out to be more dear to me. In his honor, I called you. Have you felt a part of the generation? Andrei Zorin: I’m not sure that this can be called a generation, rather - an expanded friendly company of young philologists who studied at Moscow State University. She was formed by general youth. And the Soviet government played an even greater role in the unity of people. Around there was an immense hostile world, the confrontation of which strengthened friendship, helped to stay together. Friendship was accompanied by the unity of the worldview - anti -Soviet, of course. How the ideologies of L.Z.: The Soviet government, of course, did something to rally people. But I think about the role of theater and literature. A deadline passes and you are convinced that the most significant works have not changed us too much. In the forties, I was at the unforgettable Mkhatov play “Three Sisters”, staged by Nemirovich-Danchenko. I saw what was happening with the audience after the performance: it was such enlightenment that it seemed that other people would leave the hall now. However, quickly enough they all returned to themselves the same, the world remained the way it was. Of course, something is postponed in us. But still, humanity has succeeded in the creation of extermination. For which it is not easy to respect him. Nowadays, the population of the two countries - Rwanda and Burundi is practically almost swept over a very short time. And people are successfully destroyed in all corners of the world. Perhaps the literature did not hurt our lovers of elegant literature. You, Andrey, have more optimism in this sense. And it encourages. A.Z.: What are you, God forbid, I do not think that: the writer wrote a book and influenced his contemporaries. The subject of my classes is to trace how certain metaphorical constructions created by literature penetrate consciousness and practical policy. Engaged in the history of the Greek project of Catherine the Second, who believed that the conquest of Constantinople will help the creation of a Greek empire under the auspices of Russia, I tried to show how this project grew out of the literature of neoclassicism of the seventeenth century, from the metaphors of the brotherhood: the eldest is the younger brother; From the connection between the fact that Russia is a religious successor to Byzantium, and thereby is the best successor to classical Greece. My goal was to show how all these combinations found in the genre of solemn ode then suddenly turn into a political scheme. After all, myths are man -made, they grow not from mystical depths, but come up with. L.Z.: Two close totalitarian structures as communism and German fascism were born from the myth. Only the Nazis always emphasized their mythological nature, and the Communists tried to chop it with science. They were proud that their ideology is scientific. A.Z.: All myths are untyed, and I'm not going to expose them at all. There are just cannibalous myths, but there are useful - humanistic. The latter belongs to the project of my Hong Kong friends, who (in connection with joining communist China) decided that the only chance to survive is to create a Hong Kong consciousness that is different from Chinese. And they began to invent their myths and promote them. I am sure that many of our difficulties that occur after the collapse of the Soviet Union-due to the fact that we did not give rise to new serious humanistic myths, but eat old-Soviet. Democracy as the smallest evil of L.Z.: In “Green Notebooks”, I write about the viciousness of the idea of democracy, that the majority is never right (and this makes the idea of free elections vulnerable) ... A.Z.: Simply cause less inconvenience to people than all other social devices. It is impossible to create an ideal society in principle, and no democracy will do this. L.Z.: As for me, I am a person not so much democratic as liberal. I choose freedom between equality and freedom. Russia once chose equality, and this was a tragic mistake. It turned out that she is more important for everyone to be equally unhappy. So we choose deputies on the principle: "He is like everyone else, he is like us." Therefore, God vote knows for whom. It is not clear that you need to choose one that is not like everyone else. A.Z.: In my opinion, the political class is equally monstrous in all countries. One friend of mine, a Western professor, said: “I have been teaching for thirty years and see how students are distributed. There are brilliant, bright stars - they go to business. There are gifted people, but not of the same class. These go to science. The following are executive people, normal, but not enough stars from the sky. They become officials and clerks. And finally, the fourth category is not suitable for anything. They become politicians. " The political class in any country is terrible. And one of the advantages of democracy is that it makes it possible to at least minimally control power. Do not let her completely be raised. L.Z.: You, Andrei, due to the fact that you often and for a long time go beyond the borders of the Fatherland, operate more with the experience of Western democracy, which has centuries -old traditions. We are at the very beginning of the path, and the indestructible love of equality destroys us. The Communists very successfully manipulated the egalitarian bait. Their main slogan was: not the gods burn pots. As a result, there are neither gods nor potter ...

Father - writer Leonid Zorin - author of the Warsaw Melody, Tsarist Hunt, Pokrovsky Gate and forty -two plays and four novels, which wrote the memoir novel “Opening” - a kind of biography of his time over the past two years, and “Green Notebooks” - a set of various records covering more than half a century. All topics of today's conversation are generated by this book dedicated to the "Son and Friend Andrei Zorin."

Son - Andrei Zorin - Associate Professor of the Department of Russian Literature of the Russian State Humanitarian University, a scientist, giving lectures at Harvard and at European Universities, Chairman of last year's jury of the Buker Prize.

Generation "x"

Leonid Zorin: I lived the life of a lone wolf, and this corresponded to my nature. And every person is interesting to me by itself - not as a particle of society or his circle. The "Circle" has a huge leveling force, the personality noticeably loses the price. As far as I remember myself, I remember so much this repulsion from any set, including the generational one. He never felt like a particle of his generation, believed that the sixties were a myth: the sixties began with the defeat of artists in the arena, and ended with the crucifixion of Czechoslovakia.

Even my friends were of different generations: the closest and most deep friend, journalist Yakov Gick was 25 years older than me. My relationship with my father was not just the relationship of my father with my son, but two people similar in spirit and views of people. I endlessly cherished friendship with director Andrei Mikhailovich Lobanov, who turned out to be more dear to me. In his honor, I called you. Have you felt a part of the generation?

Andrei Zorin: I’m not sure that this can be called a generation, rather - an expanded friendly company of young philologists who studied at Moscow State University. She was formed by general youth. And the Soviet government played an even greater role in the unity of people. Around there was an immense hostile world, the confrontation of which strengthened friendship, helped to stay together. Friendship was accompanied by the unity of the worldview - anti -Soviet, of course.

How ideologies are generated

L.Z.: The Soviet government, of course, did something to rally people. But I think about the role of theater and literature. A deadline passes and you are convinced that the most significant works have not changed us too much. In the forties, I was at the unforgettable Mkhatov play “Three Sisters”, staged by Nemirovich-Danchenko. I saw what was happening with the audience after the performance: it was such enlightenment that it seemed that other people would leave the hall now. However, quickly enough they all returned to themselves the same, the world remained the way it was. Of course, something is postponed in us. But still, humanity has succeeded in the creation of extermination. For which it is not easy to respect him. Nowadays, the population of the two countries - Rwanda and Burundi is practically almost swept over a very short time. And people are successfully destroyed in all corners of the world. Perhaps the literature did not hurt our lovers of elegant literature. You, Andrey, have more optimism in this sense. And it encourages.

A.Z.: What are you, God forbid, I do not think that: the writer wrote a book and influenced his contemporaries. The subject of my classes is to trace how certain metaphorical constructions created by literature penetrate consciousness and practical policy. Engaged in the history of the Greek project of Catherine the Second, who believed that the conquest of Constantinople will help the creation of a Greek empire under the auspices of Russia, I tried to show how this project grew out of the literature of neoclassicism of the seventeenth century, from the metaphors of the brotherhood: the eldest is the younger brother; From the connection between the fact that Russia is a religious successor to Byzantium, and thereby is the best successor to classical Greece. My goal was to show how all these combinations found in the genre of solemn ode then suddenly turn into a political scheme. After all, myths are man -made, they grow not from mystical depths, but come up with.

L.Z.: Two close totalitarian structures as communism and German fascism were born from the myth. Only the Nazis always emphasized their mythological nature, and the Communists tried to chop it with science. They were proud that their ideology is scientific.

A.Z.: All myths are untyed, and I'm not going to expose them at all. There are just cannibalous myths, but there are useful - humanistic. The latter belongs to the project of my Hong Kong friends, who (in connection with joining communist China) decided that the only chance to survive is to create a Hong Kong consciousness that is different from Chinese. And they began to invent their myths and promote them. I am sure that many of our difficulties that occur after the collapse of the Soviet Union-due to the fact that we did not give rise to new serious humanistic myths, but eat old-Soviet.

Democracy as the smallest evil

L.Z.: In “Green Notebooks” I write about the viciousness of the idea of democracy, that the majority is never right (and this makes the idea of free elections vulnerable) ...

A.Z.: Just democracy causes less inconvenience to people than all other social devices. It is impossible to create an ideal society in principle, and no democracy will do this.

L.Z.: As for me, I am a person not so much democratic as liberal. I choose freedom between equality and freedom. Russia once chose equality, and this was a tragic mistake. It turned out that she is more important for everyone to be equally unhappy. So we choose deputies on the principle: "He is like everyone else, he is like us." Therefore, God vote knows for whom. It is not clear that you need to choose one that is not like everyone else.

A.Z.: In my opinion, the political class is equally monstrous in all countries. One friend of mine, a Western professor, said: “I have been teaching for thirty years and see how students are distributed. There are brilliant, bright stars - they go to business. There are gifted people, but not of the same class. These go to science. The following are executive people, normal, but not enough stars from the sky. They become officials and clerks. And finally, the fourth category is not suitable for anything. They become politicians. " The political class in any country is terrible. And one of the advantages of democracy is that it makes it possible to at least minimally control power. Do not let her completely be raised.

L.Z.: You, Andrei, due to the fact that you often and for a long time go beyond the borders of the Fatherland, operate more with the experience of Western democracy, which has centuries -old traditions. We are at the very beginning of the path, and the indestructible love of equality destroys us. The Communists very successfully manipulated the egalitarian bait. Their main slogan was: not the gods burn pots. As a result, there are neither gods nor potter ...