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About the Roman Congress "Ten years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall"
Leading Lev Roitman

Lev Roitman:

On October 6th, the central body of the Hungarian Socialist Workers' Party, the Netsabadshag newspaper, the organ of the ruling Communist Party of Hungary, went without the slogan of the "proletarians of all countries, unite!". I was then in Budapest and that number "Nepsabadshag" I keep as a historical souvenir. Later, in the same 89th year, the Berlin wall symbolically collapsed, in the future and it was actually dismantled for souvenirs. But, contrary to the conclusions of the American political scientist Francis Fukuyama, the end of the story did not come, the history of the ideological confrontation did not become a souvenir. And this was confirmed by the representative international congress that had recently been in Rome "10 years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall." Three Russian participants in the Roman Forum: Yuri Afanasyev, Alexander Yakovlev and Arkady Vaxberg today participate in our program.

The Berlin Wall is a symbol of the Cold War, that, so to speak, of the Soviet -style communism, its past. But, I would ask the participants in our conversation to look into the future, remaining in the present day: communism, as an idea, as a practice, is it alive, is it dangerous today? Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, I will present you somewhat more: you are now the president of the Democracy Foundation, and in 89, 10 years ago, a member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU, the party, which then ruled in the Soviet Union, the comrade-in-arms of Mikhail Gorbachev in perestroika and all the springs that were given today, albeit not perfect, but democracy in Russia. Communism today, is it dangerous as an idea, is it dangerous as practice?

Alexander Yakovlev:

I think that communism as an idea slowly fades this flame that brought so much grief in the twentieth century. But as a practice, as a relapse, as a refuge of lumpen, backwardness, poverty, it still lives and is still dangerous. In addition, if we talk about Russia, it is still dangerous because the nomenclature is still alive, it longs for power, it would like to return to power. There are a lot of people who simply lived in those times in privileges, nomenclature positions and very few sincerely refused and switched to other positions. No, I believe that any organization professing the ideology of Bolshevism, violence, revolution, class struggle, dictatorship of the proletariat should not be allowed into the political life of any country.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Alexander Nikolaevich. Yuri Nikolayevich Afanasyev, I will present you more than you: you were one of, I would say, ideological engines of perestroika from below, that is, perestroika not from above, directed by the party elite, including Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, and from below, you were one of the creators of the famous people in history, becoming the director of the Moscow Archival Institute, becoming the director of the Moscow Archival Institute You began to open the archives, Stalin, in particular, the period, now you are the rector of the Russian State Humanitarian University. Communism today, is it possible to deal with those communist creeps of nomenclature, which Alexander Nikolaevich spoke of, ideologically or, perhaps, some other methods are necessary?

Yuri Afanasyev:

When the word communism is pronounced, the image of Soviet communism is first rises, and in this sense, Alexander Nikolaevich is absolutely right, this is what should not be repeated, this is what should go forever in history and become the property of history. But when we are talking about overcoming communism, not referring only to the communism of the Soviet model, then not everything is so simple. Because in the very idea of ​​communism there are many Judeo-Christian values ​​that came with early Christianity to people, and these values ​​in themselves, it seems to me, are eternal. And in this sense, the idea of ​​communism will be eternal, only in this sense. As for practice, here, unfortunately, our public consciousness is modern is characterized by the fact that, many spoke about this at the Roman Congress, could be characterized by two words - amnesia and amnesty. That is, amnesia is a loss of memory and oblivion, and this takes place in our society in relation to the practice of Soviet communism, and amnesty is a desire to justify everything that was and leave only some bright ideal from the whole practice of Soviet communism, and all sinful principles of reason to forget. This is very bad and it must be borne in mind.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Yuri Nikolaevich. We are talking a little about today, a little about the future, but a little story, and in this regard I recall: on August 18, we were sitting in Munich on Leopold Strasse and discussed: who is Gennady Yanaev? The next day, the whole world knew who he was - he became the leader of the State Emergency Committee. And now, today, when the Communist faction is the strongest in the State Duma, if you, Yuri Nikolaevich, look back at the August of the 91st year when you ended up in Munich and when, in the future, two days later, the GKChP collapsed, did it occur to you that the party of Gennady Zyuganov would be sinning in the Russian parliament today?

Yuri Afanasyev:

Of course, then there could simply not be such thoughts. But the trouble is the truth of our reality that many very undertakings and aspirations of a democratic nature failed, did not turn, but turned into real misfortunes and troubles for so many people. And the fact that purely of demagogic considerations both the Communist Party and Zyuganov managed to somehow combine real suffering and misfortunes, failures of democratic transformations, with this word communism and the Communist Party, they succeeded. And therefore, those 20%that support them today make their faction the most influential in the Duma. But here I have the feeling that this is the final, that they will not be able to advance further than this, because there can be no positive principle and content, well, in demagogy, and in the practice of communist now there is no longer.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Yuri Nikolaevich. And Arkady Iosifovich Vaksberg, I will present you more details several more details, although our listener knows you perfectly, like readers of the Russian press, and in addition, fans of your literary creativity - you are a publicist, writer, lawyer. Arkady Iosifovich, in the wake of the Roman Congress.

Arkady Vaxberg:

I'll start with the last thing you said about is a lawyer. You understand that Nazism and fascism were rejected by the International Nuremberg Tribunal, and in order to formally judge communism, there was no and, alas, there is no legal framework within the framework of international law. And it seems that communism is not convicted, and since it is not convicted, it means he is a really active force, both ideological and real. Because communism still exists in some countries, we will not forget about this, in particular, in our most tragic version in North Korea. There is an institute of public tribunals repeatedly used in recent history, and it seems to me that humanity, saying goodbye to the twentieth century, is obliged to create it in order to bury communism by the authority of world public opinion. Then at least the fronting Western intellectuals, neither in no way, named by the Gulag or other charms of communism, they will not say how they very often do now that anti -communism is not possible. I pick up the words of Yuri Nikolayevich Afanasyev that he said in Rome, and repeated now in our conversation - amnesia and amnesty - this is the worst thing that is today when we are talking about communism. In essence, by the way, these are not two different concepts, these are the same thing - to forget, it means to forgive. And this tendency is excessed, all the communal-patriotic forces play it, and the authorities, unfortunately, our from the conjunctural and political reasons to indulge this at least with their silence. To create a public tribunal for the trial of the crimes of communism, I emphasize, over crimes, and not over communism as an ideology, this is quite real, it is feasible and it is necessary. And this, in my opinion, would have been a court over communism, he would make a very strong impression, of course not on rabid fanatics, but on those who want to know the truth. I consider the Roman Congress as a step on this path.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Arkady Iosifovich. Regarding the tribunal that you are talking about, because we recall that a year ago in France the so-called "Black Book of Communism" came out, where the victims that fell to the share of this planet, that part, which were somehow under this ideological leadership that became the subject in something in Rome at Rome, were documented in France. But this book today is quite firmly forgotten, world events are simply distilling us, perhaps in this rich information world we are just the victims of amnesia, we all forget yesterday very quickly, because today's events are knocked out of our memory.

Alexander Yakovlev:

Two comments: I agree with my friends, but Arkady Vaxberg says that there is no legal basis for the court, I think that there are still such grounds, although he is a lawyer, and I am a historian. I prepared two appeals to the People’s Court, I still do not know what, about Lenin and about Stalin, their personal crimes. We must remember that Lenin ordered to hang, put on the advancing Red Forces of peaceful citizens, like a shield, he is the organizer of the hostage system, the first concentration camps - these are all crimes, personal crimes. I'm not talking about Stalin. Of course, I consulted with lawyers, they tell me that they died and we have no law about bringing them to criminal liability personally and condemning, which, of course, would be a condemnation of communism. As for oblivion of the book, this is not entirely accurate, now it has already been translated into Russian, and I am writing to it a preface to this book. I think that by autumn this book will be released in Russian, which I consider very important for Russia.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Alexander Nikolaevich. Naturally, I did not mean Russia in this case, where the book did not publish, it was published in France, I meant France, although this book, by the way, has already been translated into a number of European languages, in particular, I mentioned Hungary at the beginning of the program, well, by coincidence, it also came out in the Hungarian language.

Yuri Afanasyev:

That's when they talk about the trial, about the tribunal over communism, over its most active participants and heroes, it seems to me that here you need to have two sides of the medal and not to contrast them, but to mean both. Namely: the court, as a moment of advance to punishment, and the court, as a moment of comprehension of truth. This is not entirely the same thing, but closely interconnected. I believe that in both quality the court or tribunal over communism should take place, and the tribunal, as a condemnation of specific crimes that were committed not only in the territory of the Soviet Union and in everything, and on the other hand, this is comprehension and understanding of why this happened. For example, why did Russia become the place where communism embodied? And also the answer to the question: why did this communism spread throughout the world? Indeed, until it becomes clear deeply, until we not only, so to speak, emotionally, but intellectually not master this phenomenon, any condemnation, like the punishment, will be to some extent premature. At first, overcoming should be in the souls and minds of people, and then or in parallel, along with this, there may be a court as a tribunal, a court as a condemnation of the practice of communism.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Yuri Nikolaevich. Arkady Iosifovich Vaksberg, well, what can be opposed by the high idea of ​​universal equality, high idea for everyone, the high idea of ​​the right to work, the right to relax, the right to everything that can invent human fantasy, and this is what the communism goes and was the idea as an idea?

Arkady Vaxberg:

This does not need to be opposed to anything, these are wonderful slogans. It all depends on what specific, real conditions they are carried out. Let's go down from the heights of theories into the reality of our days. The post of Minister of Transport in France is now occupied by a communist, he, like all his comrades, warmly welcomes the shares of workers against the so -called capitalist injustice. But, when last year the strike that paralyzed the whole country began, first of the railway workers, and then the pilots who demanded an increase in his already more than high salaries, he was forced to fight strikers as a minister, that is, practically with communism in the condition of French realities. In general, all the time, the task today is to descend from these sky -high heights of beautiful slogans into everyday reality, realizing that the achievement of these wonderful goals is a very difficult and long way that requires great efforts and the strong -willed participation of the so -called revolutionaries that destroy all their enemies, this is impossible to achieve. It seems to me that today the most dangerous is not the Zyuganovites themselves, these are not the Barkashovites, those who belong to them, of course, will not run through any public tribunals and hearings. I completely agree with Yuri Nikolaevich that the main task is to comprehend the truth, and not to condemn any. Convision will be a natural consequence of comprehension of truth. The most dangerous, in my opinion, are supposedly independent, non -angid, “objective” cynics that reinvented their beloved Soviet formula in their own way, I hope that not everyone has forgotten it yet: on the one hand it cannot be recognized, and on the other hand, one cannot fail to note. Yes, they say, there were mistakes, but there were achievements - this is a deliberate, vile amnesty of communism, because the mistakes do everything and always, sinless ones do not happen and then it turns out that our Soviet communism was generally beautiful, but made upset mistakes, so let's return it and make it already unmistakable. So the most monstrous phenomenon of the outgoing century is rehabilitated and reanimate.

Alexander Yakovlev:

I do not quite agree with my friends about the fact that the matter is not convinced, I think just the opposite is the need to condemn personal crimes of both Lenin and Stalin, personal crimes. In this case, I’m not talking about communism, I do not often use the word communism, this is a theory, this is a long-standing thing, the old one, I am very old, I am talking about the practice of Stalinism, that is, Russian fascism on our Earth, which, using some ideas, some utopias, built and built a terrorist criminal state that should be convicted. And to get to the consciousness that this is exactly so, this is really, Yuri Nikolaevich says correctly here, this is necessary to overcome and comprehend this circumstance, what really happened in Russia. Communism in Italy, in France, communism so far, thank God, there was no place anywhere, and we had a state under the roof of communism, but it was a terrorist, ordinary fascist regime, and it is subject to condemnation. In my opinion, it is necessary to divide territorial things, I understand that there is North Korea and so on, but this is a consequence of the Soviet terrorist regime.