Radio Liberty - Programs - Round Table

Georgians, Armenians and Azerbaijanis in Moscow
Leading Lev Roitman

Lev Roitman:

At the end of May, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia celebrated their national days of independence. We congratulate, albeit with some delay, our listeners in these countries and, of course, their compatriots living in the diaspora, is also clear in Russia, where Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Armenians are most. As they feel in today's Russia - as at home or visiting, as in a friendly, hostile or neutral or national indifferent environment - this is our conversation today. Guests in our Moscow editorial office: Zakhid Gadzhaev, president of the International Azerbaijan Civil Assembly; Vartan Musatyan, president of the International Armenian Assembly; and Guram Dekanoidze, vice president of the Georgian Society in Russia. All of them live and work in Moscow, and their national organizations are included in the Congress of national associations of Russia.

Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis in Russia, their national, their social well -being today, when ideological conversations about the friendship of peoples yesterday. Zakhid Adegesovich Gadzhaev, let's start with Azerbaijanis, this is the largest Caucasian diaspora in Russia.

Zahid Gajaev:

Yes, the Azerbaijani diaspora in the number occupies the third place in Russia after Ukrainians and the Tatars, and among the Caucasians, Azerbaijanis are most numerous there. The Azerbaijani diaspora in Russia, I think, was formed in terms of the last decade after the collapse of the former USSR, several waves of migration was the beginning of the Karabakh conflict, then after the collapse of the Soviet Union, then associated with the war in Karabakh, then are associated with economic problems. Thus, the number of Azerbaijanis today in Russia reaches two and a little more than millions of people. I must say that Russia is a country from among the former Union republics, where the largest Azerbaijani diaspora. Many representatives of the Azerbaijani nation who live in Russia have Russian citizenship, about 60% of Azerbaijanis in Russia have Russian citizenship, the rest live or are on registration, temporarily live. I must say that we, social activists, people who deal with the problems of the diaspora, very often encounter various levels with these problems, their solution. At the level of power structures, at the level of the federal government, the federal structure, of course, we do not meet fierce nationalism, moreover, Russian power structures for the past 10 years, the last even 5 years are very quickly progressed, and Russia really begins to realize itself as a multinational country. Many say: is there a national policy in Russia? Yes, there is, if there is a state, then there is a policy. But another matter is at the domestic level, at the level of the lower structures, the lower level of management, of course there are a lot of negative phenomena here, and even sometimes Russian passport and Russian citizenship does not save the Azerbaijani from the arbitrariness of, say, power structures and other arbitrariness of officials. I can give many examples of this, some have such a stereotype of thinking that if it is Azerbaijanis, then they are citizens of the Republic of Azerbaijan and they belong to Azerbaijan, although many Azerbaijanis live here and from birth and feel their conscious lives and feel real citizens, real patriots of Russia. Unfortunately, I already said, at the household level, at low levels, at municipal levels such phenomena are found.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Zahid Adegezalovich. In general, I was struck by this accuracy of your observation, which completely coincides with the existing sociological data that it was somewhere below that this rejection of the stranger smolders, in this case you talked about Azerbaijanis, and it is curious that this rejection in Russia is constantly falling, declining. In February of this year, sociological data were published, the survey data that compare the level of rejection with what was in November 97 and is curious that foreigners, not immigrants from other territories of the former Soviet Union, cause the greatest irritation of the Russians, but the Nazis, growth of significant rejection, nationalists, significant growth, and at the same time a significant decline in the level of reckoning of the Caucasus was called this name. The heading in this sociological survey. It is also curious to note that the largest number of these unacceptable, these rejecting the same Caucasians, the same foreigners, the same strangers, are just supporters of the Communist Party of the Communist Party and LDPR, the Zhirinovsky party, which has now suffered a crushing defeat in the person of its leader in the Governor’s elections in the Belgorod region. Obviously, this reflects the mood of the Russians, and this mood gives grounds for optimism, to me, in any case. But, with the question of Vartan Gevorkovich Mushegyan, the president of the International Armenian Assembly: Do you share my optimism?

Vartan Mushegeyan:

I share it quite, because it is simply noticeable. And I can only add that after all, 70 years Armenians and Russians, like other peoples who lived in the former Soviet Union, lived in the same state, according to the same laws. This pseudo -internationalism, no matter how bad it was demagogy, it nevertheless gave a certain opportunity to prevent xenophobic attitude or xenophobia would not develop in this country. Fortunately, it did not develop. And today is a very fertile soil so that it is not at all. And some politicians in different regions are developing it and most likely give outbreaks, when they need to distract the population from social problems, then, of course, the simplest, most effective opportunity to switch attention from social adversity is a national issue. Immediately some anti-Semitic provocations begin, Anticavkaz, which, of course, causes to some extent a specific atmosphere necessary for those politicians who lead it. Unfortunately, in some regions of Russia, namely, in those red regions where the Communists, especially the southern regions and some others, where this is simply done, can be said, can be said at the state level, when such relations provoke not some separate politician belonging to a particular party, but already makes it at the level of public service, that is, the governor or the head of the administration and so on.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Vartan Gevorkovich. And again, I want to give some sociological data that show a curious thing, I have already said that supporters of the Communists, the Communist Party, give the greatest percentage of intolerance in relation to immigrants from the Caucasus, but it is curious that during the period of the Undergraduate Board of the CPSU in the Soviet Union, the level of intolerance in the Russian population in relation to other, foreign citizens of the Soviet Union living in the Soviet Union. In Russia, it was almost negligible - 90%, even more, did not attach any importance to this circumstance in Russia at all. And what else is curious, you said, Vartan Gevorkovich, about the head of xenophobia, and here is one of the highest levels of rejection of Caucasians, other foreign citizens of the inhabitants of Russia, today is observed precisely in the directorship corps, that is, where there is this element of competition, fears for their own position. And now we are returning to Moscow again, Guram Evgenievich Dekanoidze, you are the vice president of the Georgian Society in Russia.

Guram Dekanoidze:

Your question is both complex and simple at the same time: how do Georgians feel today in Russia? I think that it is necessary to answer this question with the fact that no one, no nation and nationality can feel better in Russia today than the Russians themselves feel. And how Russians feel today in Russia, we know this: the economic situation is difficult, well, other factors are also not easy, respectively, the well -being of Georgians in Russia, according to this gradation, is not very solemn. As for the Georgian diaspora itself, it must be divided into two main parts. The main diaspora, which lived until the last events of the 91st year, until the collapse of the USSR, in Russia, according to our data, she lives today, few of them left Russia and went to Georgia, and there were about 30-40 thousand in Russia at that time. And today, according to our data, according to unofficial data, about half a million Georgians live in Russia. Naturally, those who constantly live in Russia, and those who have found a temporary refuge and refuge, thanks to, first of all, will honestly say, the Russian people here. Because today, in many ways, the physical survival of many Georgian families depends on those small money, small premises that the Georgians, the heads of families or others who modestly earn by today's standards in Russia send. As for the situation in the ideological plan of attitude to Georgians, I must say that of course, in no Russian law, in any Constitution, there is nothing discriminating to other peoples and nationality anywhere, quite the opposite. As for the official structures, of course no one will tell anyone that some question is not resolved because you are a Georgian or Armenian or a Jew or an Englishman there, but the question will be delayed in many ways. I must tell you that even today, going here, in order to go to you, I knew that I had to present a document, I asked my friend Zahid Adegezalovich: I have a passport with me? Μ, he answered me meaningful, I think that so that the Caucasian in Moscow went without a passport. Even for us, for the leaders of national organizations, this issue is at a low level, nationalism at the lowest levels of power and power structures is also quite sensitive.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Gum Evgenievich. And you mentioned Zahida Adegizalovich, another participant in our program, and now I have a question to him: Zahid Adegizalovich, you are a professor, doctor of technical sciences, you occupy a prominent position in the Azerbaijani community, Azerbaijani diaspora in Russia if you compare your attitude towards you, your personal fears with fears with fears of that Azerbaijani, who is neither not. Citizenship, neither work, nor your social function have, what can you tell me about this?

Zahid Gajaev:

Difficult position. If the Russians themselves, the Russians, who are not spelled out, say, in Moscow, with great difficulty, go through the streets of Moscow, I am talking about those people who are in Moscow, then Azerbaijani, who, without a Russian passport, without Russian citizenship, is of course hard, there is nothing to say. There are many such cases, here there is a lot of things in the Russian press about this. Unfortunately, today, I have already said about 40% of Azerbaijanis, who in Russia, they live there on temporary registration. It happens, I have already said, at a low level-at the level of district police officers, police officers, law enforcement officials, there are enough arbitrariness, we can say that these are almost powerless people, they have to talk about any civil rights, some high human rights have to be discussed. Now in the studio my colleagues in the Transcaucasian republics, but I think that the situation applies not only to Azerbaijanis who do not have Russian citizenship, they do not have registrations in Russian cities, in Moscow, Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis and others, even Russians, who, say, came from Baku, many Russians lived there due to an economic crisis, the same thing for them. This case is that he is Azerbaijan, even if he were Russian, there were still problems. Unfortunately, it exists. You asked about optimism that 5-6 years ago and now I feel a national policy, a policy that goes in the state is a huge progress. The concept of the national policy of the Russian Federation was developed, appropriate structures are created in power structures, a lot of time is devoted to the problems of national minorities, a new law on the national-cultural autonomies of the Russian Federation is adopted, which at least at the legislative level determines some rights for national minorities, for the development of the culture of these peoples. In Russia, there are more than 150 nationalities that have an original peculiar culture. There is progress, I look at the future with optimism. Many now say: we must leave, we must leave, for 30-40 years in advance there will be no good life and if we want for our children ... This is not only Azerbaijanis, many Russians themselves. I believe in the happy future of Russia, for this there are all prerequisites: talented people, resources, natural resources, geographical location. And we will hope that really Russia, the faster, the better, it will still be a multinational, truly multinational country and will feel powerful structures that every nation is a value, it is the wealth of this huge country.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Zahid Adegizalovich. Vartan Gevorkovich Mushegian, how do you feel professionally, you are a professional artist, an artist-member of the Union of Artists, do you feel any professional discrimination?

Vartan Mushegeyan:

In a professional sense, there is no, in the professional sense, what is qualitative, what is a certain value, it is appreciated. And in this sense, I am not only in my specialty, I mean in many professions, because I have left Armenia in recent years a lot of emigrants who have settled in Russia mainly, this is a large number of approximately one and a half million people. They went to other countries, but the blockade, economic conditions, that’s all, naturally affected. But I must say that many still find work in their specialty, and they are in demand, not all of course, I mean those that have really high quality. And those who, say, do not get this opportunity, still try to somehow find some other areas of activity, change their professional orientation and begin to work in completely different areas. And in this sense, we recently conducted sociological research and we can say that the Armenian population in Russia has decent opportunities to realize ourselves.

Lev Roitman:

Thank you, Vartan Gevorkovich. And in the conclusion of the GURA Evgenievich Dekanoidze: in the Russian press, in a special spectrum of this press, it is now and then reported aimed at the crimes that immigrants from the Caucasus commit, how does this affect well -being, in particular Georgians living in Russia?

Guram Dekanoidze:

The question is completely fair. I even studied reports on the release of hostages captured in Chechnya yesterday. That is, a specific address where these people were captured is known, almost the village where these people were captured is known, the place where they were freed from - all this was in Chechnya, and for some reason they are called Caucasian captives. Perhaps because of the literary associations, but in the ears of ordinary Russian, Russian listeners, all this causes not literary allegories, but quite specific in the form of the rejection of all Caucasians. Why talk about the crimes that occur in Chechnya and call it a Caucasian crime when, in addition to Chechens, a good hundred of other peoples live in the Caucasus? Why do you need to row all of them under an alien dirty comb? Of course, it is not sweet and unpleasant to everyone when these facts, and are unfairly generalized and attributed to all Caucasians.