Radio Liberty - Programs - Elections

Presenter Mikhail Sokolov

The weekly program of the Moscow edition of Radio Liberty "Elections-99" is on air. The program is hosted by Mikhail Sokolov. 99 promises a lot. The regional elections will not only be a rehearsal for the Duma elections, they will show which side the local leaders are on, who will be able to take control of the situation in the provinces, and how much influence the federal center will have on it. In the Leningrad region, contrary to the law, a temporary governor was appointed for a year. The CEC's demand not to postpone the elections until September was ignored. The authorities of Udmurtia have scheduled local parliamentary elections for April 4, despite the demands of the Central Election Commission, they have not implemented their election law in accordance with the federal law. Ufa, which has long been isolated, behaves just as freely. Here they were able to actually resubordinate the judicial system to the local elite, which made it impossible to protect against arbitrariness in elections.

The bad example went into circulation. So the President of Ingushetia, Ruslan Aushev, continues to test the patience of the capital. He plans to create a court and prosecutorial system independent from Moscow. For this purpose, a referendum has been scheduled for February 28, simultaneously with the local parliamentary elections. Will Moscow intervene? We will continue the conversation about the 1999 elections with the Chairman of the Central Election Commission, Alexander Ivanchenko.

How to make the 1999 elections fair. Radio Liberty correspondent Vladimir Dolin talks with Chairman of the Central Election Commission of the Russian Federation Alexander Ivanchenko.

Vladimir Dolin:

Results of the year for the election commission. There have been several difficult campaigns in the past year. What kind of election commission do you think came out of these companies?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

The whole year 98 passed in very dynamic work for us. These are a number of well-known campaigns for the election of heads of executive power of the constituent entities of the Federation. This end of the year was associated with elections of legislative assemblies of the constituent entities of the Federation - Kalmykia, Krasnodar, St. Petersburg. The main result is probably that in 1998 we completed all the additional elections in those vacant single-mandate constituencies that were being vacated. We conducted more than 10 micro-election campaigns in specific single-mandate constituencies. And these election campaigns did not go very smoothly everywhere. I remember the election campaign in the Ordzhonikidze district, where we practically carried out the election campaign three times. In the Nizhny Novgorod region in one of the single-mandate constituencies.

The assessment of the results of 1998 is that this year was very dynamic. This year has allowed us to pick up a very good pace of work with which we are entering 99. And 1999 is already the year of the next parliamentary elections. And if we move from estimates for ’98 to plans for ’99, then the first position on which we would like to have more tangible results. And this is probably a lack of work in 1998 that, unfortunately, we never received a new law on the election of State Duma deputies. I made this wish several times and told media representatives that we would need a new law on elections of State Duma deputies by December 1998. Unfortunately, this law still does not exist. And now we have to, even during the Christmas holidays, when the deputies are in the districts, resting, we, the experts, the specialists, will have to work hard on amendments to the law on the election of State Duma deputies. This is practically a new law, because there are such a huge number of amendments that we can talk about a new version of this law.

Huge problems await us in financing the election campaign, not from the point of view of budget financing. I think we will still receive those modest budget funds for the election campaign. The problem that worries us is how we will control the formation of election funds for specific candidates and electoral associations that will acquire such status at the start of the election campaign. And what’s alarming here is that we remember this now a year before the elections, and this problem will worsen literally by the election campaign itself. After all, the subjects of the election process come into the field of activity of the election commission for a short three months of the election campaign. And all the time between elections, their activities are not regulated by law.

We still do not have a law on political parties. We do not have a law on the financing of political parties. Naturally, it is very difficult for us to begin monitoring the financing of the election campaign in terms of donations that will be made in support of specific candidates. And here, of course, without the adoption of a new law on the elections of State Duma deputies, without regulating the most delicate procedure of how all this should happen, it will be very difficult for us. Some may not even be interested in adopting a new law on elections of State Duma deputies, but I think that we will still be able to convince all interested participants in the legislative process that this law is needed and as soon as possible, the better.

Vladimir Dolin:

Some political associations, some parties, some contenders for high positions have already begun their election campaign. Well, since the election campaign is underway, then apparently there are violations. Are you tracking them?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

Our official position on this matter is clear. The election campaign is the time when, from the moment the corresponding decree on the election of State Duma deputies is adopted, we begin the official election campaign. Everything that happens before the adoption of the decree calling these elections is not an election campaign. This is chaos. I have warned you many times and am ready to say it again. We are now recording all this activity very carefully. And when the official election campaign begins, when the presidential decree is issued on calling the next elections of State Duma deputies, I do not rule out that those candidates, those electoral associations that strictly follow the rules will begin their election campaign, will make claims against those violators of the law who start much earlier than the officially established deadlines.

Vladimir Dolin:

On the eve of future election campaigns, image makers are even rubbing their hands, counting future profits. It is no secret that many election technologies today can hardly be called clean. What can the CEC do against dirty election technologies?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

Even the term you use “image makers”, in my opinion, is not our term, not a domestic term. And with the recipes that the organizers of dirty election technologies offer, no self-respecting candidate abroad would allow them into his own election headquarters. I am very confused by the situation when the candidates themselves, including those running for a second term, that is, already occupying responsible government positions, use the services of dirty image makers, people who offer recipes for breaking the law.

I have a very negative assessment of the examples we encountered in St. Petersburg. Therefore, we intend to make a proposal, including in the law on basic guarantees of citizens’ electoral rights, so that people involved in organizing elections would not hesitate to at least register themselves. And during registration they presented a diploma, for example, a political scientist, a specialist with a higher education, a lawyer’s diploma, a specialist in the field of election organization, a specialist’s diploma in the field of constitutional law. After all, quite often these offices employ people who have no moral or legal basis for offering this type of service. I can still somehow justify turning to the help of this kind of dirty image-makers of people who have a criminal past and strive to come to power in order to hide the pages of this biography, here, as they say, they complement each other. But when officials, State Duma deputies, and governors turn to the services of dirty image makers. This is what you need to focus on. We teach how to conduct an election campaign correctly. How to conduct it in strict accordance with the law. Here, practically illegal activities are being carried out, violation of the electoral law is being propagated, violation of the Constitution is being propagated, and we, unfortunately, cannot now apply any measures of responsibility. Therefore, one of the proposals will be a proposal to supplement the Criminal Code, the code of administrative offenses for this kind of illegal activity.

Therefore, just as there are calls that all citizens, honest citizens, legal entities must pay taxes, and for this to register, starting this or that business activity, so people offering services in the field of organizing election campaigns must act in strict accordance with the law, have official status, present their accounts, expenses, income that they receive. This will also hit hard for those candidates who will use the services of dirty image-makers, because if we establish the facts of payment for their services, which will be undeclared in the accounts of the election fund, this is a sure way to the fact that we will deregister such a candidate even for the facts of involving such specialists in organizing his election campaign.

Vladimir Dolin:

You mentioned candidates with a criminal past, and it is no secret that some candidates also have a criminal past. How, under the current legislation, could it be possible to put a barrier in front of these candidates who, at best, are running for parliamentary immunity, and at worst, in order to provide cover for their criminal acts?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

Already in a number of subjects of the Federation, in their laws on the elections of deputies of the legislative assembly, on the elections of heads of municipalities, there is a clear statement that the candidate is obliged to report the facts of an unexpunged and unexpunged criminal record. The constituent entities of the Federation are already ahead of the federal legislator in the fight against such manifestations. The federal legislator still cannot pass laws directly obliging these candidates to provide us with the election commissions, along with their statement of consent to run for a particular elective position, data - whether they have a criminal record that has not been expunged or expunged or not. Of course, it is very difficult for us to carry out this kind of work without the law. But we are not ashamed of all the difficulties that were along this path; we announced these applicants in 95, we also announced them in 96, and in 97, and in 98, but we would like to hope that finally in 99 the federal legislator will give us a legal basis, according to which we could contact the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the department of internal affairs of each subject of the Federation, and these bodies would officially provide us with this information, and we, as a body working openly, publicly, publicly, we will not hide anything from the voter, from the media. Moreover, we will write down opposite the names of such candidates and on the signature sheet, when collections are being made in his support, that he has a conviction under article 117 - rape, has a conviction under article such and such - robbery, and the same data will be indicated on the ballot. And I am sure that voters will not put signatures in support of such candidates when they are collecting signatures, much less vote on election day when they see a similar entry next to the name of this candidate on the ballot. This is not our whim, this is a requirement for the current Constitution of the Russian Federation, according to which every voter has the right to information, including information about the person who claims on behalf of the voter to exercise government power at the federal, regional or municipal level. Without this, it is no longer possible to organize an election campaign.

We have been raising the issue of the speedy adoption of new electoral laws since the beginning of 1998. But the law on the election of State Duma deputies, after considering it in the first reading, has been in the State Duma for more than a year and has not yet been adopted even in the second reading.

Vladimir Dolin:

Disputes often arise during election campaigns and the courts have the final say in these disputes. But the millstones of justice turn slowly and a situation often develops similar to the one noted in Bashkiria - the court restored the rights of candidates, but six months after the elections ended and were recognized as valid. How to resolve this conflict?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

Before this, it is necessary to make appropriate changes to the electoral legislation and the civil code, in accordance with which election disputes are considered in the courts. We have just now prepared a whole package of proposals to supplement the civil procedural code on the consideration of election disputes, where election disputes related to election campaigning should be resolved strictly within the month allotted by the electoral law for election campaigning, where complaints about the election results should be considered no later than six months after the end of the election campaign. After all, we also have paradoxical examples when the election campaign for the 1995 elections took place almost 4 years ago, and we are still being pestered with complaints about the 1995 elections. The same applies to cutting districts. The division of districts has taken place, something does not suit someone, an appeal needs to be made at the stage of the election campaign, including in court, for which a month is allotted for the division of electoral districts, because we have a situation where we have already held elections according to the division of districts approved by the Legislative Assembly, and based on the election results they begin to appeal against the division of districts, that is, they are trying to destroy the results of the election campaign that have already taken place. Therefore, one of the tasks that we have to solve in terms of improving election legislation is its synchronization with related branches of law - criminal law, civil procedural law, administrative law, and so on.

Vladimir Dolin:

The New Year is not starting off in the easiest way for you. The President has instructed you to personally monitor the election process in Vladivostok. How are you going to carry out the presidential order?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

I signed a corresponding order that created a working group, which is now monitoring all the vicissitudes of the preparations for the elections in Vladivostok. A landing party of our workers is landing there, who will accompany each day of the final stage of the election campaign on site, and consider, together with the municipal election commission, all complaints that will be received regarding the course of this election campaign.

There were several decisions of the Supreme Court on previous elections. The election campaign in Vladivostok is also complicated by the fact that there is a parallel series of lawsuits by various candidates. And we, of course, have to make our own adjustments to the preparations for these elections, taking into account the decisions made by the judicial system. But I think that we have a well-established interaction mechanism here. For a time, if the court considers a particular complaint, we suspend work on it. Once a decision is made, this decision is binding on us, and we strictly comply with the decision of the relevant courts in this area. I would like to hope that January 17, 1999 will be the first date of successful elections in the city of Vladivostok.

Vladimir Dolin:

According to the signed Russian-Belarusian agreements, citizens of Russia and Belarus receive equal rights to vote and be elected to supranational bodies. Does this mean the creation of a single electoral space in the two countries?

Alexander Ivanchenko:

Firstly, we already have very constructive experience of interaction with Belarusian colleagues. And previously signed documents provided the opportunity for citizens of the Russian Federation to take part in elections of local government bodies in Belarus, just as citizens of Belarus participate in elections of local government bodies if they live in Russia. The practice of this interaction shows that there are no unsolvable problems. But the first step in this direction should be the unification of legislation. We use a mixed electoral system at the federal level. Our Belarusian colleagues have a majoritarian electoral system - they hold their elections only in single-mandate electoral districts. But we also have part of the deputy corps, which is elected in single-mandate constituencies. I don’t see any big problems from the point of view of conducting a joint election campaign on domestic legislation, but on a supranational body. But to do this, you need to look at how the stage of cutting districts compares there, how the stage of nominating candidates compares. How does the next stage of election campaign compare? To what extent do the requirements of Belarusian legislation meet international standards? Because our legislation meets the highest requirements in terms of organizing an election campaign.

But there are also, as they say, technological subtleties. We are about to discuss the very idea of ​​creating a union, how voters in Belarus and Russia will react to the proposed innovations. Here, obviously, we will have to face either a referendum or a national discussion. We have a federal constitutional law on referendums in the Russian Federation, but we do not have legislation on popular discussion. We do not have legislation on a consultative referendum. Therefore, there is still a lot of work to be done here. Things don’t get done so quickly when you get down to the practical level of organizing one or another interstate event, be it a discussion, a referendum, or elections to supranational bodies. Here you will have to work very hard.

Radio Liberty correspondent Vladimir Dolin talked with the Chairman of the Central Election Commission of the Russian Federation Alexander Ivanchenko.

Today we continue regular meetings with the governors of Russian regions. Guest of the Moscow studio of Radio Liberty is the governor of the Pskov region, the only head of administration in Russia, a member of the LDPR, Zhirinovsky's party, Evgeny Mikhailov.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Evgeny Eduardovich, I met you, a member of the LDPR at the Fatherland congress, Yuri Luzhkov. Many people, all kinds of delegates, came to this congress, as I understand, you were there as an observer.

Evgeny Mikhalov:

I was there as a guest, that is, I was simply given a specific invitation by Yuri Mikhailovich, and I considered it my duty to attend, especially since I still treat Moscow politicians with a certain warmth, because I myself was in the Moscow City Council for four years and I simply know many of them personally. Therefore, there is both a personal contact and a political assessment of their influence and their role in the political process. A combination of factors brought me to this congress, where I was pleased to see that a new political structure was emerging, that is, Luzhkov will not be just an isolated figure who puts himself forward for the presidency, but still it will be a structure, which is what we need today, because according to the Constitution, according to legislation, we have a multi-party democracy. It doesn't work if there are no parties.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Evgeny Eduardovich, well, the Fatherland movement, many say that this is a potential party of power for the future president Luzhkov. How are you going to build your relationship with this structure?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Well, first of all, this is not exactly the party in power. This is one of the parts of the party in power, which has not yet been fully defined, so to speak. Yes, this is part of the party in power, which is trying to become a center for consolidation. But I’m not sure that the second part will not nominate its leader.

Mikhail Sokolov:

What is the second one?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Well, who is not in the “Fatherland” now, so to speak. There is a third, the communists, which is a semi-power party. The second is those who were at the helm, say, before the latest events.

Mikhail Sokolov:

That is, Chernomyrdin, NDR?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Yes, this is the NDR, this is radical democracy, as we call it, these are the people who were at the helm, but who were pushed aside a little, and Luzhkov is trying to take their place. If they manage to come to an agreement, which I wish by the way, now the country needs consolidation of all the forces that are capable of bringing something constructive. And this is the least destructive option for Russia in future elections. If there is no consolidation, then this will be a cutting down within the party in power, which, of course, can bring a non-systemic candidate to power, in principle. Although it is also a question of how this will happen, who will have the stronger potential in two parts, suppose they are divided if it is not consolidated. Well, and the communists, a lot depends on them here too. Although they are not directly part of the party in power, they are close. This is like one such reserve party in power. Their opinion also needs to be taken into account and somehow come to an agreement with them, as in fact there was an agreement in 96, that is, everyone understood perfectly well that the communists did not come to power, despite the entire campaign against them and their campaign. But still they really didn’t want to come. That is, they simply knew that they simply would not be allowed in. That's why they didn't wage such a campaign in '96 to win. They were simply running a campaign. So they reported, you know, in the communist way - the campaign was carried out, one thing. That's it, the checkbox is there. That is, of course, this has its own charm. Because if all the key players again manage to agree on future elections, then we will get an option that will at least somehow suit everyone.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Evgeny Eduardovich, but still, how do you assess the prospects of the NDR, Chernomyrdin? There is now a rather interesting split there. Some of them, apparently led by Shokhin, really want to join Luzhkov, while Viktor Chernomyrdin insists on his potential?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

There are two points here. The first is parliamentary elections, that is, suppose that the NDR retains a certain influence and, in general, can even receive a certain rating with a reasonable policy, that is, it retains its faction for those people who now make up the NDR and a certain independence for the leaders and, first of all, for Viktor Stepanovich, for them this is a value. Trying to reach an agreement in the presidential elections is another matter. That is, the question here is either simply to join the banner, or to maintain a certain independence and already play your own game, which does not exclude an alliance with Luzhkov, say, open or behind the scenes. In this regard, they have two options; which one will win is very difficult to say. At least both the first and second have the right to exist. Of course, for the elite that the NDR represents, the second option is better, that is, to get their faction into the Duma and then bargain with one of the candidates who will have an obvious chance of winning.

Mikhail Sokolov:

It’s hard not to ask you how you assess the prospects of your LDPR party; you are not the last person there near Zhirinovsky, although you are mainly in Pskov. What will the LDPR do in the parliamentary and presidential elections?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

It's difficult for me to comment. Why? Because I really deal with the province and don’t even really know the plans of the party leadership. I can only say, again theoretically, that the LDPR is now at a rather difficult stage. She can expect to get her 5 percent and get into the State Duma if she doesn’t make big mistakes. It depends on the leader how he will conduct this campaign, how he will spend the almost year that remains before the elections. If this is a successful year, then the LDPR will get its 5 percent, maybe even more.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Would it be correct to say that you have deliberately distanced yourself from Zhirinovsky now?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

This didn't happen just now. This is two years ago. Here the first technical question, it’s just very difficult for me to do any other side business that doesn’t relate specifically to my field. This is a technical factor that you cannot escape. After all, the Pskov region is not the richest region, I don’t have the opportunity or time to entrust affairs in the region to someone else, and do some things there myself, as many do. I have to do everything myself. This takes up 99 percent of the time. As for the party ones, well, there are all sorts of issues.

Mikhail Sokolov:

But Zhirinovsky comes to you and conducts propaganda campaigns in Pushkin’s places.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

He visited twice in two years, let’s say. It's not much. Of course, I somehow try to keep him in the know, but historically it happened that such distancing occurred. As for the LDPR's policies, not all steps, let's say, I approved.

Mikhail Sokolov:

For example.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

I don’t want to criticize, because, firstly, I cannot know all the internal springs of decision-making, which is why I immediately stipulate that I have poor information, because any decision that supposedly can be made, but is supposedly good or bad, it can simply be forced or have some kind of long-term goal. But I cannot say this, as they say - an outside view. Of course, there was no need to change the position on the government so dramatically. It was necessary to take one, let’s say to support Viktor Stepanovich. This had to be done in both the first and second rounds. In the third round, naturally, there was no need not to support Primakov, that is, it was necessary to simply support Primakov. This was a normal position, that is, to support any person who is capable of becoming prime minister to eliminate the crisis.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Are relations with the government now not damaged due to the fact that the party was very critical of Primakov?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Well, firstly, not very critically, and secondly, we have Sergei Kalashnikov in our government. I think he plays a sufficient role there to improve any relationship. That is, he is a professional, in his place and, as far as I know, the reviews about him are quite high.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Now, the current economic policy after the August crisis, how has it affected the situation in your area? What happened?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

In reality, the crisis did not begin in August. The budget began in May. That is, since May, we have received several times less federal aid transfers. For us, for the Pskov region, the transfer is very important. Our gross regional product per capita is one and a half, two times lower than that of any neighboring region, although the neighboring ones are also not particularly prosperous. Therefore, the situation here was very difficult. When the Federation stopped giving money or almost stopped, we of course found ourselves in such a depressed state. The crisis hit us, firstly, with rising prices, this was, of course, the second stage, the situation worsened. This is a price increase. This is a sharp exchange rate difference on foreign currency loans. Let's say this is a lack of taxes. Enterprises lost money in banks, they were stuck, a number of contracts were broken, that is, enterprises began to work worse, a decline in production began, although for 11 months, up to November inclusive, we have a two percent growth. But nevertheless, many industries found themselves in a very difficult situation due to the crisis and suffered great damage, including the budget.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Here you are, representing a party that calls itself liberal democratic. Meanwhile, for example, we are receiving signals that you, as governor, do not always behave democratically. Have at least three independent radio stations ceased to exist without the participation of the regional administration?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

I would say that I behave very liberally and very democratically. If these radio stations cease to exist, firstly, it is a matter of time, well, and secondly, if a radio station broadcasts for five years without a license, in principle this is generally a criminal offense of illegal business activity. That is, they place advertising, receive money, there is no license, how to evaluate this?

Mikhail Sokolov:

We need to help the media obtain licenses and become legalized.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Well, getting a license for them is somehow not entirely good. That is, they had to think for themselves, in five years they could probably get a license themselves, which I think they are doing in the end. But it’s just not even the governor who was involved there. There was a so-called FSTR commission, which began to check due to the fact that an order came from above that whoever works there, let’s check. We checked and it turned out that almost everyone was working without a license. Naturally, they were deprived of the right to broadcast until they received this license.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Will they get it?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

I think they will get it wherever they go.

Mikhail Sokolov:

One more question, again about your region. The region is so tourist-attractive. There are Pushkin’s places, and a lake, and monuments, but nevertheless, there is not even any kind of tourism boom observed at all, rather the opposite. What's happening? Has Russia completely lost its attractiveness in the eyes of the West?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

No, she didn't lose it. Firstly, there is still a certain growth, although these are certainly not the same numbers that were there before. The question is very simple - firstly, there is a problem of infrastructure, that is, for a person to come, especially from the West, and even today’s Russians, let’s say, they also don’t want to go just anywhere, but they still go where there are some conditions. There must be normal travel agencies and operators. This is a serious market where you need to fight for tourists, just like Türkiye fights, like Cyprus and Egypt fight. Travel agencies need government support, that is, there must be targeted actions. As Luzhkov did, say, 850 years of Moscow, youth sports games last year. This year will be the 200th anniversary of Pushkin.

Mikhail Sokolov:

There, in my opinion, the government allocates money and it’s written out to you there, as it were.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

We have been assigned only for the restoration of the Mikhailovsky and Trigorsky museum-estate. It's very good that this is being done. Display objects. That is, the display objects themselves are being restored, given that there is new management, there is a new concept for these museums.

Mikhail Sokolov:

But controversial, as they say.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

There is simply an opinion among some people of the old school that the museum is sacred, they should give money for the museum and supposedly nothing else is needed. Unfortunately, there is no money now. A museum is not only a shrine, it is an object of display that must work, which must have the first function of education and propaganda. A person comes to Mikhailovskoye, he must see what kind of values ​​we have, what kind of cultural and historical heritage. But in order for him to come there, he must eat normally, have a normal rest, buy a souvenir, get a book, a booklet, something else, that is, something that is available all over the world. And people won’t go here unless the conditions are right. We have a huge number - this is the Izborsk Fortress, the Pechersky Monastery, Pskov itself, but no one will see them, they will not work even if they are in normal, excellent condition. This time.

The second point is economic. Well, the state doesn’t have the money to pay for the maintenance of museums. They must work themselves like everyone else in the world. That's the whole problem. There must be a business plan. This is a normal enterprise that has both an educational and economic function, which simply will not live differently in our country, because there is no money for anything.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Evgeny Eduardovich, you have Estonia nearby, relations with which are quite complicated. You, and not to mention your leader, spoke quite harshly about the situation of Russians in Estonia. How have you managed to balance the relationship now?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Yes, we have excellent relations in terms of regional ties. I was just in Tallinn with Valentina Ivanovna Matvienko. There were no problems there. Of course, as a governor, I have my own point of view about the situation in Latvia and Estonia, which I do not hide. There are three questions that we always raise: joining NATO, we have always been against it and we are against it now. There is no military sense in this. Estonia and Latvia will still only be the forward trenches of, say, the West. But if we like this role, then we don’t like the fact that we have such a trench nearby.

The second question is that, of course, Russia will never come to terms with the fact that Russians are in a position of disadvantage, that is, they do not have the right to vote. Now it is so accepted that there are some peoples who have the right to vote, and other peoples who do not have the right to vote, but I think that the Russians should be among those who have the right to choose those who lead them.

Mikhail Sokolov:

But there are quite a lot of Turks and Kurds living in Germany who don’t vote either?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

There is a discussion around this. But I know one thing: Russians in Latvia and Estonia do not live for 20-30 years. Latvia was annexed in 1710, Estonia at the same time by Peter. There were no independent states then. By the way, I have great respect and, in principle, understand the concept of Latvians and Estonians, who naturally want to preserve their national identity and want to create their own national states. But there is a conflict of interest here. Russia must offer them a formula that will suit us and them. There are big problems with this today. But in any case, it is unacceptable when Russians do not have political rights, not to mention everyone else.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Maybe that suits them. A significant part does not protest and is quite happy with the high standard of living and the possibility of now joining the Schengen area.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

I assure you, a person, especially a Russian, will never be satisfied with the fact that he has fewer rights than his neighbor.

Mikhail Sokolov:

So you see a potential source of conflict?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

I'll say even more. Seriously speaking, it means what the concept was originally. All the, say, separatist forces that were in the USSR in the Baltic states, they thought that they certainly took the goal of creating a national state that would be integrated into Western systems. The goal may be good, but the issue with Russian communities arose especially in Latvia and Estonia. They saw the solution in displacement, that is, the creation of conditions that would encourage the Russians to simply leave. Moreover, many actually arrived there not so long ago. These were the years 40-70, such a process was going on, the correct process was not entirely appropriate. And in many ways it would have been provoked by the fact that there were different standards of living in the Russian regions and in the Baltics, but this led to the fact that over the course of the life of one generation the ethnic composition of the Baltics changed dramatically, and they, of course, were concerned, which, of course, can be understood. And they just wanted to push the Russians back.

Why weren’t they given rights, why did the process go smoothly and so many people left? But they did not take into account one thing, that Russia began to collapse so much that there was nowhere to leave. That is, for those Russian people who live in Latvia, the standard of living in Estonia still remains higher than in Russia. And they simply have an economic choice that life is bad, but many have somehow settled into this system in Latvia, Estonia, or go to God knows where in Russia, where it’s even worse, let’s say. Therefore this plan failed. Today it is clear that a huge number of even Russian citizens live there. Let's say in Estonia there are about 100 thousand. A huge number of non-citizens, different categories of legal entities. And now the political parties of Latvia and Estonia are going through a certain process of rethinking what will happen next. To try to integrate them, that is, to make them not Russians, but Latvians and Estonians, in order to preserve the concept of a nation state, this is of course an interesting goal, but hardly achievable. Because as soon as Russia comes to its senses, it will immediately begin its policy in the Baltic states and will naturally rely on Russian communities. This is inevitable, whether it happens in five years, ten or fifteen years, that is, such a process will begin. Or try to make binational states.

Mikhail Sokolov:

How is it in Finland?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Yes, like Finland, but in Finland there are not so many Swedes, but approximately. That is, to give a political meaning, that is, to give the right to vote to Russians in Latvia and Estonia, then this will be a sharp change in the political picture. Then we must forget about NATO and it will be integration with the CIS, with Russia, with whatever. That is, the political pendulum will swing in the other direction.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Where is the compromise from your point of view?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

They are looking for a compromise. I don't have to look for them. I'm talking about something else that Russia should now propose and think for itself. This is not the case yet. Think about a concept of cohabitation that will be interesting and acceptable to Latvians and Estonians, where their rights will be taken into account, for example. Although, despite the fact that I personally, as a Russian, am offended by their behavior. Because they shouldn’t have acted this way towards the Russians. Moreover, many Russians voted for sovereignty. It was simply not decent to lie. Let's say so. Many, of course, fought there and it was their right to fight for the preservation of the state, but many simply voted for independence, and they were actually deceived. And this is such an insult, it naturally will not go away quickly. But resentment is a personal issue, and here is a matter of interests, a matter of politics.

Mikhail Sokolov:

After all, by the way, there are residents of the Pskov region who take Estonian passports, as far as I know.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

This is again more and more a newspaper duck. The meaning is that we have the Pechersk region, where a small Estonian-speaking Orthodox minority lives, the Sets. This is a very interesting people. It's very small. She is divided. Some live in Estonia, mostly children, and parents mostly live with us. And there was a campaign some time ago when the Estonian government began issuing Estonian passports to the Sets who live in the Pechersk region. Indeed, about a thousand were given out. But the fact is that these passports were not issued correctly. Well, Seth, naturally, like any normal person - I have a Russian passport, let’s take an Estonian one, it won’t be any worse. They say that you can use them to travel to Finland without a visa, and so on and so forth. Naturally, some people took it. Now the campaign has ended, but many actually still have these passports in their hands, although they do not have any special legal force.

Mikhail Sokolov:

As you see in the next year or two, say 1999, the main event of which in Russia, I hope, will be normally held parliamentary elections. What could happen during this year if, for example, the Primakov government continues?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Anything can happen. The situation is very unstable. Chaos, especially in the fall, grew very strongly. Now it seems that stabilization has occurred, but any wrong move by the government is primarily in the economy, but not only in the economy, and of course a new wave of chaos can begin.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Economic do you mean?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Economic, but not only economic. There is a very serious factor in the North Caucasus. That is, destabilization from the south. Primarily in the North Caucasus, but not only there.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Aren't you afraid of social protests?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Social protests will be a consequence of economic problems. If the stability that is supposedly achieved today continues, then social protests will be within certain limits and the population will understand perfectly well that it may be more expensive for them to protest. Because now, unlike in 1917, there is historical experience. And now many people, with all their despair, with all their embitterment, so to speak, they still subconsciously think - if only things could be worse, because they know that things can be worse. They may not even be aware at the level of such thoughts, but subconsciously it sits there, which could be much worse. Therefore, there will be social protest and, apparently, it will even grow, because there will clearly be no economic changes for the better in the near future.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Do you think the communists will stir things up? Why do they need it, are they in the government?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Firstly, this can be fueled not only by the communists, but by anyone, because the population is really on the brink, especially in many regions. The communists themselves may find themselves hostages here. Now they will support the budget in the Duma. But the budget won’t be very good. First of all, it is not very real. Secondly, he is like that, not that he is tough, he is unfair in many ways. And they will be under attack if the budget fails and the tax reform that they are supposed to support fails, and this may well be the case, because many of the parameters that are laid out there are not realistic. A five percent exemption from VAT is a blow to income, but it is also very doubtful what will happen after this in terms of production growth. They themselves are under attack.

Mikhail Sokolov:

That is, the pendulum can swing to the right? They will remember Chernomyrdin.

Evgeny Mikhailov:

I’m afraid that the pendulum will clearly not swing towards Chernomyrdin, but may swing outside the system, that is, non-systemic political organizations will begin to strengthen, which can ride these protests and go to the elections, so to speak, not with the exact set of slogans, ideas and people, personnel that we all want.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Are you afraid of General Lebed?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Lebed is a semi-system politician. I'm not even that afraid of him. Of course, there are certain concerns towards him, although he is still, to some extent, but still he is a general, that is, to some extent he is already part of the system. And considering his financial history, credit history and political history, it is clear that he is a person who has done a lot for the system, although he plays the role of a non-systemic politician. This is not the worst option, it could be worse.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Is there still a better option?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

A better option is when Primakov comes to an agreement with Luzhkov with the tacit consent of Zyuganov. This is a good option.

Mikhail Sokolov:

And who is running for president?

Evgeny Mikhailov:

Now I don’t presume to predict which of them is better. That is, I am personally ready to consider both Luzhkov and Primakov as real candidates, first of all, because these are the most compromising figures today. Maybe someone else will appear. Everyone else, of course, has less support and less chances.

Mikhail Sokolov:

Mikhail Sokolov was at the microphone, and the governor of the Pskov region, Evgeny Mikhailov, was a guest of the Moscow studio of Radio Liberty of the “Elections-99” program.

In our next broadcast on January 14, we will talk about the pre-election situation in Vladivostok.