At the beginning of the summer of 1998, I proposed to my superiors to make a series of programs about the past and future of Soviet anti-Americanism. The idea was met with interest, but only its wording caused bewilderment: what kind of future does something that is already in the irrevocable past have? - Anti-Americanism is found, of course, in Russia today, but there is nothing Soviet left...

Six months later, when my proposals seemed to be buried under a pile of no less wonderful plans, anti-American passions in Russia ran rampant to such an extent that even Izvestia stated:

" Russia has spontaneously acquired a national idea - anti-Americanism claims to be its core ."

The forgotten project came to life again.

So, Soviet anti-Americanism yesterday and today - does it have a future?

To participate in the discussion of these issues, I invited scientists: corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Sciences Alexander Oganovich Chubaryan - he is the director of the Academic Institute of World History in Moscow, and in Washington - a political scientist, a specialist in modern Russian history, Professor Peter Redway, as well as Americans living and working in Russia - a Moscow employee of an American law firm, Mr. Shane De Beer and a correspondent for the St. Petersburg Times, John Varoli from St. Petersburg.

I’ll start with what is obvious to me, which, however, is what modern Russian haters of America, armchair theorists and newspaper and Duma practitioners of the fight against the “ hegemony ” of the United States, with American vices and pernicious influence , that is, politicians and ideologists of various political stripes, for some reason, prefer not to talk about today.

The current anti-American concepts, sentiments and prejudices in Russia are a Soviet phenomenon in nature ; no Russian anti-Americanism has ever existed, at least before the October Revolution.

The communist ideology that reigned after 1917, equipped with a class approach to any objects that came into its field of vision (from politics and physics, to geography and music), divided everything American along class lines. Remember: “There are different Americans - some are proletarian, and some are bourgeois.” America, from which the USSR sought political recognition until the 1930s, was portrayed, on the one hand, as a state of moneybags, where “ blacks are hanged ,” tormented by crises of overproduction, unemployment and the Great Depression. On the other hand, as a battleground for class battles, where among workers and farmers, regardless of the color of their skin, clusters of class anger ripen, as well as love for the USSR and proletarian solidarity with the achievements of the Land of Soviets.

Before the Second World War, the image of America painted by government propaganda seemed to be double: here is the “ City of the Yellow Devil ,” where “ the music of the fat people ” constantly plays, and in the skyscrapers of Wall Street, pot-bellied “ Mr. Twisters ” move capital and hatch their villainous imperialist plans. But here is a nice “ one-story America ”, in the huts of which “ Uncle Toms ” live, a poor working mass suffering from lack of money, unemployment and hopelessness, for whom the only light in the window is the success of a distant country, “ where people breathe so freely .”

And in the minds of the Soviet leaders there was another America - a storehouse of technological wisdom and scientific organization of labor, which, whether by trade cunning or espionage dexterity, had to be borrowed and adapted to the wonderful cause of the struggle for communism on a planetary scale.

But what we now often see in the Russian press - monochromatic, total anti-Americanism - has never happened.

It was impossible, for example, to find statements in newspapers like: “America always beats the unarmed and always below the belt, because it itself is below the belt,” “America, which grew fat on the killing of bison and Indians, bought half of Africa from slave traders, still produces slaves, Yeltsin is Clinton’s slave.” And before the war, it happened that individual highly twisted cogs of the Soviet state machine were accused of collaboration with American imperialism. (I must say, much less often than in collaboration with German and Japanese fascists, with British and French intelligence.) But to accuse the head of state and the majority of the state leadership (more than once!) of having connections with the United States - this, of course, did not happen.

As a political doctrine and cultural phenomenon, official Soviet anti-Americanism was finally formed only after the Second World War, in which the USSR and the USA were, as we know, allies and from which they emerged victorious. It was then, and not immediately, that anti-Americanism became an essential component of national consciousness in the USSR, an ideological mythology of domestic and foreign policy, culture and everyday life.

It seems to me very important to note here that the basis of these changes was not at all what ethnosociologists sometimes call “normal dislike for neighbors,” something that is an obligatory component of European and Asian nationalisms.

Soviet anti-Americanism owes its emergence, in my opinion, primarily to the transformation of the post-war communist (Stalinist, if we recall its main author) doctrine, which considered its recent ally - the United States - as “enemy #1”, the main threat to the very existence of Soviet statehood, which can only be preserved by nuclear parity, open ideological confrontation and secret revolutionary liberation operations in all parts of the planet where direct or indirect interests of the United States.

“Time Difference” is a program hosted by Vladimir Tolts. Today it is dedicated to the past and present of Soviet anti-Americanism.

Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences Alexander Chubaryan tells me about its emergence.

Alexander Chubaryan:

In general, the emergence of such stable stereotypes in the ideas of some peoples about others is a very interesting problem. Now it is, in a certain sense, at the forefront of historical science and political science. [...] There are a lot of factors that go into this.

You rightly said that if we talk about the United States and ideas about Americans in Russia, then this syndrome did not exist in Russia at all before the revolution.

I think that the image of the American in the Soviet Union was more positive than the images of some European countries and peoples. It also came from the everyday consciousness of historical traditions, but it also came from official policy, that is, let’s say, we knew the positive assessments that Lenin had, the American people, American intelligence and efficiency, and so on.

The war reinforced these positive perceptions because Americans were perceived as loyal allies.

I remember this day very well, I was still a boy - May 9, 1945: near the National there were American officers (there was an American embassy) who were being swung and thrown into the air and the crowd, completely spontaneous, shouted that these were our best colleagues and friends.

The emergence of anti-Americanism as a political doctrine and concept is, of course, associated with the beginning of the Cold War. In a sense, I would say that this is a concept imposed from above, but it was fatally predetermined and necessary. This is an inevitable concomitant of the harsh confrontation that generally exists between countries, peoples, even between people, if you like. And that bipolar world that existed, when everything was practically concentrated on the confrontation between two superpowers - the Soviet Union and the United States... (The West was all associated with the United States.)

And I remember, it was the beginning of the 50s, the next report in the Hall of Columns, Pospelov, then Secretary of the Central Committee, gave a report that actually gave rise to anti-American sentiments in science, even in ideology, especially in application to the past, because then they began to actively promote the idea that the Americans were our main opponents in 17, 18, and 19 - this was not the case in 20-30s, these ideas were born after the war, they marked the beginning of anti-American sentiments. I repeat, this was not a stereotype, a tradition, these were not sensations born from great historical experience, but it was born from specific political ideological practice.

And to be fair, it was a two-way process. I was in the United States in 1961 (the first time I spent a month visiting universities), and the anti-Soviet sentiment was terrible.

Vladimir Tolts:

- Alexander Oganovich, in fairness it should be noted that it was not anti-Soviet sentiments in the United States that inspired the creation and determined the internal structure of Soviet anti-Americanism...

Alexander Chubaryan:

- I did not say that our internal anti-Americanism was born from the positions of the United States, I said that it was a process on both sides, because not so much anti-Sovietism, but anti-communism in the United States was very strong in those years.

Vladimir Tolts:

- The basis of Soviet anti-Americanism, which finally took shape during the Cold War, is a complex of conspiracy myths : oligarchic myths, Judeo-Masonic, geopolitical, mondialist, the theory of class struggle, and so on.

According to all these myths, the United States is a country of the “Yellow Devil”, ruled by financial and industrial oligarchs, who, by the way, are most often Jews, secret masons, and so on, seeking to subjugate the whole world. And the only force capable of defending and saving the world was the Soviet Union.

What has changed in these structures now?

Alexander Chubaryan:

- First of all, I would slightly modify what you said: all these theories - mondialist, theories of conspiracy and other things, oligarchic, nevertheless, it seems to me, were derivative. These were forms of manifestation of what, in principle, gave rise to such an anti-American syndrome and sentiment.

The question for me is this: what was in this anti-Americanism - and then we will understand today - what was from politics and ideology, and what turned out to affect wide circles of consciousness of the population, I would say, such ordinary consciousness.

I think that (there is no question of this, of course, that in the politics of ideology this was the central direction), but in ordinary consciousness I did not have the feeling that this was such a widespread point of view and position. It was not universal because it did not have a fairly strong historical tradition, it did not have very much justification.

Now, what happened next: the end of the Cold War, it would seem, the main idea of the confrontation is removed... In addition, what you said: “the city of the Yellow Devil”, these oligarchs - that too, everything has changed, it turned out that this is our own dream of becoming just like them. America has become not only a bogeyman and an image of the enemy, but for many it has become an expression of some ideal that we need to achieve. (How many times have I heard in everyday consciousness: “Well, where should we go? If we lived like them, it would be good.”)

The Americans have not become a political and economic model for us at the present time, in the last 10 years. I would say more - Europe has strengthened here. I think this is due to the fact that the majority of the Russian population still spends their business trips, their leisure, their vacations in Europe, and not in the United States - it is expensive there and not many people will go there. Therefore, it appeared: we must accept (even in official circles) that for us this is Erhard’s “German miracle”, the “Swedish model” and so on. The American model was portrayed as an example for achievement, so that it would be good, but it did not become the main direction of development.

And suddenly, again, we are faced with a fairly strong wave of anti-Americanism. This is an interesting question for me, I can’t even fully answer myself.

Well, firstly, I think that this is to some extent a natural thing, when there are two superpowers, and one feels equal to the other, one has a very strongly developed sense of its own strength, power, the ability to resist and influence, and suddenly it’s all lost, it’s all gone. Then another syndrome arises: before there was “anti-West” and the expression was mainly that the United States, and now there is a different formulation of the question - we lost, naturally, while the winner always causes a feeling of jealousy, if not hostility. Again, who is it on? - In the United States. They won, they are the main winners... Moreover, I think that the behavior of the United States very often did not hide this: we won, they lost, and we are now the main power in the world, we can now dictate, we can now determine development...

I communicated with a lot of people (I have a lot of wonderful friends and colleagues in the United States), but I even felt this element of some superiority in how we were treated, although, in general, these are people I like, and I tried not to think about it.

This was not the main reason, but one of the expressions of the new anti-Americanism.

In addition, this is again the same triangle: we, Europe - neighbors - and the United States. Due to proximity, due to historical traditions and greater connectedness, this did not result in anti-Francophony or anti-Germanism, even though we have tragically difficult relations with the Germans (by the way, all surveys show that Russians look in Germany, Germans in Russia are nicer, more positive), - a stereotype more than in relation to many other countries.

So again, this is the United States - so to speak, our humiliation comes from them, and so on.

Our internal affairs again have a very significant impact: on the one hand, our economic affairs - who is to blame for the fact that we feel so bad? - Yes, the International Monetary Fund and the bank are to blame. Where are they sitting? - Yes, they are sitting in Washington. Who's to blame? - Our reformers are to blame. Why are they to blame? - Yes, because they took American monetarist theories as a model, again these Americans implanted their experience on us in order to humiliate us and put us in such an uncomfortable position.

We say: but it’s Europe that doesn’t like them, and in Latin America they have harmed everyone there, and in Asia... So, this internally creates such a feeling.

The next point is that internally in the country there is a strong growth of national, let’s call it, self-awareness, but also national exclusivity, the feeling that we must save the world again. (I heard from my respected academic colleagues that who will save the spiritual crisis of the entire West and civilization - Russian civilization can save them!.. And who is the main bearer of the bad, disastrous? - The Americans. They are there, they are thriving and so on...) And those positive things that were in the understanding that they are thriving, and we would be fine like them, were replaced by another point of view - they are thriving, we cannot rise, and they are also to blame for this...

Vladimir Tolts:

This is how Alexander Chubaryan, a member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, talks about the nature of current anti-American sentiments.

Let me remind you: our conversation today is devoted to the past and present of Soviet anti-Americanism.

It is now clear - this is demonstrated to us by numerous studies both in Russia and abroad - that the basis of the political anti-American doctrine, as well as the myths on which it relied in its formation, was a complex of national inferiority generated by the inability of the Soviet leadership to truthfully explain to its citizens why in the country of the “most progressive social system” and the “most advanced ideology” they constantly live significantly worse than citizens of a country located in "the last stage of decaying and decaying capitalism."

The absence of such an explanation was replaced in propaganda policy, firstly, by concealing and distorting the achievements of American democracy. Secondly, by the inadequate opposition to them of real and imaginary Soviet successes. This is a well-known propaganda model of “but” : but they hang blacks,” “but we make missiles, block the Yenisei,” and the like.

The result of this kind of processing of the mass Soviet consciousness was the creation in it of false stereotypes of the depravity and lack of spirituality of American society, the insidiousness of American politics, which is an expression of the interests of oligarchs seeking to extend their villainous power throughout the world, the resuscitation of the myth about the messianic destiny of Russia, about the USSR as the only force capable of resisting all this Americanism and, with the mobilization of all national resources for this confrontation, capable of achieving decisive success in it.

But, in general, this is all in the past, but what is the source of anti-American sentiment and its outbursts in today's Russia?

This question of mine is answered in Washington by the famous political scientist, specialist in modern Russian history, Professor Peter Reddaway.

Peter Reddway:

- I think that there are many sources of anti-Americanism in Russia and they have different roots.

Communists and some nationalists are unhappy that the United States supported efforts to eliminate the communist regime in the USSR. They would prefer that everything remain unchanged, that the country continue to be communist and that the Soviet Union survives. This is one of the sources of anti-Americanism.

In addition, some democrats and nationalists (even those who not only did not oppose the collapse of the USSR, but also supported this idea) are also anti-American, because they believe that the United States has contributed to the emergence of illusions about how easy it will be to move from communism to democracy and a free enterprise economy.

The United States and its Western allies support the International Monetary Fund and encourage other countries to use the Fund's guidelines to speed up the transition from one system to another. The United States was not critical enough of these recipes, which also did not lead to success, mainly in the field of economic well-being.

Only a narrow circle of people who became rich began to live better, and those who became rich not as a result of creative entrepreneurship, but through financial speculation and criminal or quasi-criminal actions. For democrats and nationalists, what was happening in the country was sharply different from what the United States and other Western countries had previously said. Communists are also naturally concerned about Russia's current political situation and hold the United States and the West somewhat responsible for it.

Many Russian citizens do not believe that the actions of the United States are due to the insufficient competence of politicians and therefore attribute evil intentions to America. The United States and the West, they believe, pretend to help Russia with economic reforms, but in reality they are trying to weaken Russia. I think that these are the main sources of anti-Americanism.

Vladimir Tolts:

So, neither defeat in the Cold War, nor Gorbachev’s new thinking and perestroika , nor the collapse of the communist ideology of the Soviet system, nor the collapse of the USSR, nor the creation of a new geopolitical reality destroyed traditional Soviet anti-Americanism and the stereotypes it created in the mass consciousness, but only transformed them. Moreover, almost all forces operating in the political arena of modern Russia - from national patriots, communists and Zhirinovites, to Yabloko supporters and democrats - on occasion use transformed argumentation, rhetoric and stereotypes of anti-Americanism in their political practice.

But these are all, so to speak, political games of the authorities and those who would like to become them. Of course, at the level of mass consciousness, ordinary people sometimes perceive many things in them at face value, but at the same time they amaze with their unexpected somersaults and transformation of position, naturally, and distrust of this kind of propaganda.

How exactly does this modern politically opportunistic anti-Americanism in Russian everyday life affect Americans who live and work in Russia?

I ask about this an American lawyer working in the representative office of an American law firm in Moscow, Mr. Shane De Beer. (He first came to Moscow as a student, in the summer of 1983, and now he has been working here for more than a year.)

- Tell me, do you feel the anti-Americanism that our program is dedicated to in your everyday life?

Shane De Beer:

- You know, I can say that in my professional life I don’t really feel it, maybe... Only there are, say, “red” directors who have a bad attitude, perhaps not so much towards Americans, but in general towards foreign investors or, one might say, towards strangers in general who allegedly interfere in their affairs.

At a personal level, I encounter this quite rarely; I would say that I often hear anti-American opinions or slogans, but for me personally, I didn’t really feel aggressiveness as such.

Vladimir Tolts:

- What kind of anti-American slogans or statements do you hear?

Shane De Beer:

“Probably two years ago I was traveling by train from Moscow to Tallinn, and there was just such a passenger in my compartment, and he spent almost the whole night telling me how the Americans set Russia up: they say that the Americans are doing everything on purpose to weaken Russia, and that, in principle, Clinton, and before him Bush, and before him Reagan, did everything on purpose so that Russia would no longer be a great power. But, at the same time, he was nice to me personally.

Vladimir Tolts:

- In your opinion, on what are such ideas of your Russian interlocutors based?

Shane De Beer:

- You know, I think that I can even compare this with the attitude that there was in America among a certain group, say, in the early 80s regarding the Japanese. At this time, America was also going through some difficult times, some drastic changes, and this also coincided with a time of large investment of Japanese capital. And even, I remember, the Japanese bought some very famous buildings, and I even remember in California many, especially from the working class, said that soon the Japanese would buy everything from us, they would take everything from us, and they would not allow us to bargain with them on a free level, “on an equal footing,” as they say.

And, I think, based on the same considerations, that during sudden changes you want to blame someone. And especially if it's the workers who suffer the most from economic change, those who have little opportunity to enter a new job or find a new profession, and who are most dependent on one industry or another...

I mean that in Russia, of course, the situation is much more difficult than it was in America at that time, then if such opinions about the Japanese could be heard here then, then, naturally, this does not surprise me here.

Vladimir Tolts:

I asked the same question: does he experience anti-Americanism in his daily life to my American colleague, who works at the St. Petersburg English-language newspaper “St. Petersburg Times,” John Varoli. (He has been in Russia for 6 years, in St. Petersburg for 3 years).

John Varoli:

- Such behavior is very rare, people are very friendly towards the Americans, they are interested, respectful that this is such a great power.

Recently, I myself was surprised when NATO and American ships sailed to St. Petersburg: how many people with goodwill came to the port there to meet American sailors!..

It hurts a lot of people that there is no respect for them from Americans. When I talked to them, (they don’t think that I am), but in general, they have this idea that the Americans somehow look down on the Russians, because Russia is no longer a great power.

Unfortunately, a lot of people thought that it was even good when the world was afraid of Russia, this, unfortunately, is a little unpleasant, because they believe that respect means fear of someone...

Vladimir Tolts:

I again turn to the Moscow American Shane De Beer:

- What role do you think the current propaganda and ideological attitudes of certain Russian politicians play in the formation of anti-American stereotypes in society?

Shane De Beer:

- I think that this plays a fairly significant role. For example, ideology provides the basis for perceiving the world, and if people have the opinion that some nation is working against the people, then this, of course, can only come from some kind of general perception, this is definitely from ideology. And so is propaganda: I think that there are so many sayings today that whoever shouts more and louder gets more listeners, and therefore, of course, for a certain segment of society, slogans seem to serve as an opinion.

Vladimir Tolts:

- Well, and the current economic and financial crisis - can we say that under its influence the attitude towards Americans in Russia has somehow changed?

Shane De Beer:

- I think that in some ways, yes. I don’t feel this with the people I communicate with in my professional life, but more and more often I hear harsh remarks, say, on public transport and so on...

So, I think that in general, when there is a lot of stress on a person, then, of course, there is something to be angry about, after all, in Russia today.

Vladimir Tolts:

Question to John Varoli: do you see prospects for changing this situation?

John Varoli:

- I think that this will not happen soon, it will continue like this for a long time. Unfortunately, as history shows, Russia always emerges from such a crisis with a strong hand. We hope that this will not happen, because this is not a healthy solution to the problem in Russia.

Vladimir Tolts:

- How do people in the United States feel about the increasingly louder and more frequent anti-American tunes heard in the speeches of Russian politicians and in the media? - I ask this question to Professor Peter Reddway, who is in Washington.

Peter Ruddaway:

- So far, the United States has not really responded to the intensification of anti-Western and anti-American sentiment in Russia, since most Americans do not even know about it. They continue to think that most Russians have a good view of the United States, and only a very few have a bad view.

This can be explained by the fact that the American government presents its policy towards Russia as successful. The administration emphasizes that it supported Yeltsin and economic reforms, that everything is going well, and this assessment from the administration leads to the fact that many Americans do not understand the real situation in Russia, and do not know that more and more Russians are beginning to criticize the United States.

Those who know about the intensification of anti-American sentiments also understand what caused them, but there are still very few such specialists.

Vladimir Tolts:

Today's episode of our program is dedicated to the past and present of anti-Americanism in Russia.

The current anti-American propaganda that unfolded on the crest of the Russian-financial political crisis was given a very special character by events taking place far beyond Russia - the impeachment procedure of the American president and the joint military action of the United States and Great Britain against Saddam Hussein.

The obscene headlines of articles linking Monica Lewinsky, attacks on Baghdad and “bitter resentment that the Americans did not inform the Kremlin” are often simply indecent to read out loud. In the Duma, in connection with the military operation in Iraq, there was even momentary solidarity with the offended president and government. The LDPR faction, in protest against the actions of the US Administration, left the plenary session, a representative of the Russian Regions parliamentary group demanded a sharp increase in defense spending, and an agrarian deputy called for a worldwide boycott of the United States and Russia’s refusal of any American assistance. Izvestia stated:
"The anti-American wave is gaining strength in Russia."

What's next? Does current anti-Americanism in Russia have a future? - I ask the participants of today’s program about this.

Alexander Chubaryan:

- For me, the only main question is: how sustainable is it? The fact that some politicians and so on use this is completely justified. (Even politicians use this less than in ideology.) But is it at the everyday level, is it in everyday consciousness?

Until recently it seemed that this did not exist, but, unfortunately, I see that it exists.

And this is associated and associated with internal affairs. These are those circles, first of all, those layers that actively do not accept what is happening inside the country, this is a wide range of people, both disappointed and people who have lost their economic hopes, and they have such sentiments.

Finally, there is one more thing - this anti-Americanism is strongest among the politically active part, the apathetic part of the people, those who are happy, perhaps do not experience difficulties, and who do not go to rallies, do not go to demonstrations, they have it less.

What seems important to me now is that, after all, young people (I observe students), they are not in the mood for this, but there are always individual people. But as a trend, it seems to me that this does not exist, and there are no anti-Western sentiments, and there is no anti-Americanism.

But in some official ideological sphere it is being revived again.

Shane De Beer:

- I don't know if I have an adequate answer. I believe that, in principle, relations between our peoples are going for the better.

Well, firstly, the Russian people cannot be characterized by the appearance of some demonstrators who carry slogans - this is still some kind of minority among the people. Secondly, despite the fact that the cultural product that is exported from America is not our best cultural product and vice versa, we have all sorts of films and magazines and books, such as reading matter, that do not give the best image of America. But, despite all this, information has increased, communication has increased, Americans are still quite similar to Russians and vice versa.

And in my personal relationships with Russians, I practically always find a common language, and I think that we will have more relationships, both business and personal, that our relations will still improve.

Moreover, I noticed that those who have the most anti-American opinions are usually those who have the least experience with the Americans, so I am, in principle, optimistic.

But of course, in the near future this may get worse simply because the crisis gets worse.

Peter Ruddaway:

- As for the future, I fear that we will have to wait a long time for the moment when anti-American and anti-Western sentiments among Russians reach their peak.

I fear that with the collapse of the Russian economy, which began in August and which will be very difficult to cope with in the coming years, anti-Western sentiment in Russia will deepen and spread. They are already manifesting themselves among people of various political persuasions, and I think that such sentiments will spread among the Russian elite. Ordinary Russians, who believe that its leaders are primarily to blame for Russia's difficulties, are unlikely to blame the West to the same extent. But we'll see how right I am.

A very important factor for the future development of Russia will be how willing new political leaders will be to include the ideas of anti-Americanism in their programs, and what kind of support such leaders will be able to achieve. I think that there will be several such leaders, and that criticism of the West will be part of their program.

In all likelihood, we will witness much deeper anti-Americanism in Russia than what we currently observe.

Vladimir Tolts:

It seems that a new wave of top-level anti-Americanism is indeed growing in Russia.

And yet, I would like to conclude our today’s program with one more question from the already quoted Izvestia: “Is it in Russia’s national interests that a situation where an idea with the particle “anti” becomes a unifying force in society?