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Leading Lev Roitman

Lev Roitman:

Today our guest in the Prague Studio is German political scientist Alexander RAR. He is the head of the department of Russia and the CIS of the German Foreign Policy Society. Your society, Alexander, was created in the mid-1950s, created as a non-governmental, supra-party public association, similar, I would say, in terms of their goals, for private sources of financing with such organizations as, for example, the Council for Foreign Relations in New York or the Royal Institute of International Relations in London. In other words, Alexander, the goal of German foreign policy is to support public interest in international affairs, organize international scientific cooperation, and so on. And yet, Alexander, before the start of our conversation, I will note that your society has more than one and a half thousand members - these are politicians, public, trade union figures, scientists, journalists and so on.

Alexander RAR, it is known that your department brings for speeches, for acquaintance of prominent political and public figures from Russia, as well as from the countries of the Commonwealth. Most recently, Sergey Kiriyenko visited you, you had Gennady Zyuganov, you had Alexander Lebed three times. What attracts these politicians to Germany, what are their goals, what are their objectives and what is their agenda when they come along the line of your foreign policy?

Alexander RAR:

Leo, I am very pleased to be here on Czech land, on the Radio Station Freedom, where I grew up and worked for a long time. Now I work, indeed, in a very important society - the German society of foreign policy, which invites politicians for personal acquaintance with them. That is, we do what the German policy cannot do, for example, they cannot invite a person like Luzhkov or Zyuganov or Swan directly to Bonn or Berlin, and they ask us to do this so that the visit is less official so that Yeltsin would not be offended for this visit. What attracts Russian politicians, not only Russians, but the CIS politicians in Germany? I think this is my personal opinion, it seems to me that these politicians have a slightly misunderstanding idea of ​​what Germany is. They all believe that there is America, it is difficult to agree with America with America, by the way, it is not always easy to negotiate with America, and everyone believes that Germany, like a future superpower, as a strong state, in an economic sense, a powerful and a country that plays the first violin in the European Union, can even help Russia, maybe even in America’s use. I think that this is guided by part of the politicians who come to us. The other part simply wants to make friends with the German elite, because it has now changed, it has changed dramatically, the Social Democrats who were not in power came to power, these are new people, of course, that a politician like Zyuganov believes that he, as a future social democrat, sees himself when he comes to Germany, that he must build relations with the leading social democratic party, therefore accepts Germany. Our invitation. Luzhkov wants the same, by the way, the Swan wants the same, all politicians from Russia, Ukraine are now going to us at our invitation in order to meet with a new chancellor, make friends with him, rebuild relationships that, perhaps, somewhere special, some kind of special, which they were between the column and Yeltsin for the last 5-6 years.

Lev Roitman:

Alexander is completely clear that in this formula, which explains why Russian and not only Russian politicians go to Germany through your foreign policy society, is fading to “look at people”, but this formula provides for “showing themselves”. And here are your impressions of how Russian and not only Russian politicians look, but confine themselves to Russian when they come to Germany in the same. How are they perceived, you are a person who has lived in Germany all his life?

Alexander RAR:

Well, they are perceived at first with great alertness, because the wide German public knows little Russian politicians, they have a certain stereotype about what a Russian politician should be. They have the opportunity to get acquainted with such a politician within 2-3 days, because the visits have a certain duration, we do not invite a person only for half a day. We show a person to Germany, he meets not only politicians, but also with the public. These meetings, from my point of view, are very important, because, on the one hand, on the one hand, the German elite can somehow touch him, ask him questions, openly argue with him, and on the other hand, the same politician has the opportunity to ask questions - what we always offer him. By the way, not everyone enjoys such a privilege, it seems to me that Russian politicians really come first in order to imagine themselves. This is their first visit. And when they come for the second or third time, so I can only praise even the communist Zyuganov, who came to us the second or third time to us in Germany, he asked more questions about Germany, than German politicians asked him about Russia. He was prepared, by the way, he was more informed about how many nuclear power plants are in Germany in a conversation with "green" than the "green". Another example is swan. Here is the swan precisely the stereotype of a person - the policy of the Russian, which the Germans are eager to see. It seems to the Germans that the Russian politician should be a little rude, a little cruel, but somewhere kind to the world around him. It should be strict at home, but the foreign policy should be conducted in accordance with the interests of Europe and America. And the swan, when he came to us in the 97th year, it was 3 months after he lost his post in the presidential structures, it seems to me that he had developed this flair in the second day, he realized that they wanted to hear from him. And he settled very well, he really liked him. The first time he spoke, 500 people came, the next day he performed in Munich, two thousand people gathered in the hall, and everyone was delighted, because he spoke little, spoke loudly, but little, restrained-it was this stereotype, then people began to think about it differently about him differently. What I want to say that, of course, Russian politicians here take this opportunity to do a lot for themselves and for another country to show themselves, and somewhere to push the German-Russian relations in some direction, which is very important for us.

Lev Roitman:

Alexander, a natural question, again, from your point of view, that you would recommend Russian politicians, Russian public figures, but, again, I am again repeated, not only Russian, but also politicians from the countries of the Commonwealth, when they come to your country, to Germany? Perhaps what should they not do?

Alexander RAR:

An important, good question. I think that they should not have been done, it is only to try to see the first person of the state at all costs, that is, the new Chancellor Schreider, often enough to talk with his environment. It is very important, it seems to me that politicians understand that if they want to really get acquainted with German politicians, with German society, they should look for deep contacts with different organizations, not only with ours and look for contact with the public, and they must come with a really strong desire to get acquainted with the political spirit of the German elite. That is, to understand, not only in words, as the German thinks, but, perhaps, penetrate more into the German consciousness. They must, Russian politicians, to understand that Germany is a European union, that Germany sees itself on the side of the European Union. They must understand that the German elite is very much aimed at America. They must understand that the German elite is very interested in friendship with Russia, they must understand that German entrepreneurs are different about the Russian market than American ones. American is really only investing in strategic objects, to make money quickly. The German economic elite thinks completely differently. I may say something very funny, but it seems to me that a German entrepreneur wants a set of economic economic and culture. He goes to Russia to get acquainted with both people and culture. And he needs to provide a certain training ground for his actions there, in the Russian market. Now, if the Russian politician paid more attention to the actual needs and problems of German entrepreneurs, and not just sorry for their hands and spoke, come, we will help, and then nothing happens, it was not guided by so much to meet with Schreider, but in order to chat with the public and especially with entrepreneurs, then, I would think, we would really have worked out a large-large piece.

Lev Roitman:

But, Alexander, I also lived in Germany for a very long time, and I can fully imagine that not all German businessmen have this positive duality of the approach - both culture and earnings. Many, if they would give them a choice or say that you have no choice - or something - they would just agree to earnings, and I will go as a tourist for culture. But be that as it may, your society is a German society, a German society of foreign policy, and so when German entrepreneurs, German politicians, German public figures turn to your society, what do they expect from you from the sphere of contacts with Russian and the politicians of the Commonwealth?

Alexander RAR:

Indeed, the question that is now, especially now negotiates in German circles. The fact is that in Germany it seems to German entrepreneurs that Americans are much larger and more successful in the Russian market, because they have better lobbying. If you go to the Duma or to the Russian government, the Americans are sitting there in the dressing rooms, the Germans are almost not visible there, this is a big problem. In America there are a number of organizations that are doing this, in Germany they are not. We are such an organization, but we not only protect or promote the economic interests of German firms, rather we do it sideways, the main thing is that it seems to us to create a political lobbying, not a state type, not an official type between Germany and Russia. That is, not only to promote some German interests east, to Russia, but also to represent Russian politicians and Russian large entrepreneurs with the opportunity to go west on this path and contact German entrepreneurs and German politicians through us. Already in this regard, I can say that the leadership of the Yukos and Lukoil oil company, even Gazprom, work with us closely because they also begin to understand that they should somehow realize their interests in terms of representation of their firms in the West. They can only come here, sign the contract and leave. That is, they should also lobby their interests, and for this we present them such opportunities that, from my point of view, it is very interesting.

Lev Roitman:

Alexander, and now a little ago in our conversation. You said that the swan was a colossal influx of the public, he realized the German dream, let’s say, about Russian politics - it is rude, it is direct, they suspect some kind of internal cruelty, and at the same time the softness in relation to the outside world, it is true or incorrectly that I say it doesn’t matter. But recently, Kiriyenko visited you, who completely does not correspond to this image, and he really didn’t like a swan, but he was an influx on him, he disappointed the Germans that he was not rude, because he, probably, is not cruel, again, faithfully or incorrectly - these are all side questions, but the contrast of these two figures.

Alexander RAR:

I set out my personal opinion, my, say, observation of how the German elite reaches for Russian politicians. Naturally, they are drawn to such names as Yavlinsky, like Chubais, who all over the last week came at our invitation, invitation of other organizations to Germany. Sergey Kiriyenko, you called him, proved to be in a very good way, in any case, in the part of the program in which I participated, where I was present, I must say that he behaved brilliantly, I liked it in his speech, in his behavior exactly that he performed very self -critical, and from my point of view, there was that Russian politician, I just watched them, including Yeltsin, when he came when he came when he came. Here, but this is the politician who first really explained to the Germans the strategic position of Russia-Germania, Germany-Russia. That is, he tried to express what Russian politicians very rarely express, exactly what the West could and had to do, to do realistically in order to help Russia. And this was the main part of his report, he came with a well -thought -out goal to tell the Germans what steps they should take in order to pull Russia out of the current crisis. And in this he, I think, differed from other politicians.

Lev Roitman:

Alexander, the following plans of your department?

Alexander RAR:

In any case, we plan to hold the largest conference in Moscow, to timid it to the decade of the “wall” to the decade of the fall, so that in the President’s hotel to convene a Bergadov conference, which is going to Russia every 5 years, to invite those politicians who are interested in direct relations with Germany. Indeed, in October of this year we will celebrate two things - the fall of the "wall" and the reunification of Germany - 10 years. We can now see what has become with Russia for 10 years of democratic Russia: Russia has become democratic, has adopted Russia or not and not and critically or critically look at Germany: what Germany did with a gift of reunion - it has become more democratic, it has become more dangerous in Europe, it has become more independent or it does everything to strengthen the European Union and Europe. Here we want to talk about this, in October this meeting will be, and now I will cook it. In any case, we want not people of the past, such as Gorbachev or Kolya who created this, but the people of the future, because the generation has changed, in Germany, the generation has changed dramatically and now we need to look into the future and try in the next 10 years it is the German and Russian positions to come together somewhere in the same one, namely, in the detachment of new Europe, democratic and market.

Lev Roitman:

Alexander, people of the future, and who, from your point of view, should be included in this category? After all, your conference will not come to your conference, invited will come.

Alexander RAR:

No, the speakers will come there, this is the club that they gather in, this is a very famous German club, a Bergedyra meeting, where 40 people will come to discuss these issues. But, I think that you can connect a lot of other observers, journalists who can follow, in any case, what will happen at this meeting. I think this meeting should be given some kind of signal, to look into the future, which can be made by this potential, which has been gained, exactly 10 years of democracy in Russia and 10 years of reunited Germany - which can be done with general efforts for Europe. What politicians to invite? In any case, in any case, the younger generation of German politicians is Yoshka Fisher, who is interested in coming to Russia, representatives of the Green, who have not yet groped out how to communicate with the Russian elite and from the Russian side, of course, we will still be frank, the rate in Germany goes to people, say, in the same Yavlinsky, on the same Kiriyenko, on the same Kiriyenko, on the same Kiriyenko. The same Nemtsov, on the same Chubais - it is easier to communicate with these people. But at the same time, everyone understands that the future president, in any case, the one whom the Russian people will choose in 2000, will not be Yavlinsky, not Gaidar and Nemtsov, but rather Luzhkov or Lebed or Zyuganov, rather Luzhkov, so some rate is coming at him now, the leaders of the Western countries who go to Russia now go to Russia now along with Primakov. They meet with him. This elite needs to communicate with this elite, what can we do? And here it seems to me that there are a lot of common positions - Luzhkov himself visited Germany, the Germans, by the way, liked it very much, especially businessmen, I think that even if the elite, who is now gaining more and more strength around Luzhkov, will come to power, then the foundation is developed on which it will be possible to negotiate.

Lev Roitman:

This conference in Moscow will celebrate a decade of the German event. This decade was a decade of the collapse of all those communist structures in Russia, in Eastern Europe, which have gone in history, there is no need to enter these details now that you, Alexander, disappointed you in these ten years?

Alexander RAR:

In terms of Russia, I was still disappointed by the fact that the Russian mentality, say, was still unable to become European. Я вырос в Германии, я вырос в немецкой школе, мне кажется, что то, что немцы прошли после войны, именно сознание того, что было их прошлое, откупление вины по отношению к народам, которые были немцами жестоко обижены или уничтожены, Может быть, России не стоило бы полностью перенимать этот немецкий опыт, потому что кто-то будет говорить, что Россия не вела такую политику по отношению к другим, но все-таки, надо было, с моей точки зрения, осознать свою вину по отношению к странам Восточной Европы, народов, которые просто не смогли развиваться при коммунистической системе. А гласность и все это в России очень быстро закончилось. В России развился дикий жестокий капитализм, при котором 2% живет хорошо, а другая часть населения плохо. Как это изменить - не знаю. В 97-м году мы все были очень большими оптимистами, мы все были рады, во всяком случае в Германии, что действительно в России заработала экономика, все надеялись, что сейчас появятся нормальные люди, можно будет цивилизованно отстраивать отношения. Этот финансовый крах в августе 98-го года показал, что, к сожалению, фундамента, на котором все это было можно построить, его просто нет. И я думаю, что он связан то же с этим, не только с экономическими и политическими проблемами в России, но и с тем, что где-то абсолютно не изменился менталитет тех людей, которые сегодня управляют Россией.