Last conversation with Jan Karski

Jan Karski (1914-2000) - pre-war diplomat, during the war - a prisoner of Soviet camps, then - a legendary courier who liaised between the Polish underground and the exile government in London; During meetings in 1942 with US President F.D. Roosevelt, members of the British government and others, he was the first to transmit reliable information to the West about the extermination of Jews and about concentration camps in Poland. After the war he lived in the USA and taught at American universities.

I'm tired of myself and of life. I didn’t prepare for old age, and now I feel embarrassed that I’m so old and ugly. Karsky ceased to interest me more than twenty years ago.

About Lodz and about mother

I was born in house 71 on Kilinsky Street in 1914. The city was called "red Lodz". The then “father of the city” Bronislaw Ziementski was a legendary figure - Pilsudczyk, a socialist, a radical social activist. He was closely associated with Pilsudski and said that they drove together to the Independence stop, where Pilsudski got off and Ziementski drove on to the Social Justice stop - whatever that means 1 . In the city they said about him that he was still sitting on that tram and had never reached his stop.

The slogan of social justice was very popular at the Marshal Pilsudski Gymnasium, where I studied. But before I got there, I received a home education - according to the program of my mother Valentina Kozelevskaya, née Guravskaya. My older brothers and sisters were already living separately, and I was my mother’s only ward. She didn’t have any diplomas, but she had a worldview that incredibly attracted me. Firstly, she idolized Pilsudski, whom she never called anything other than “father of the nation.” Mother was deeply religious in her own way: she believed that God is the same for everyone, he just reveals himself to different people in different ways. Therefore, there are different religions, churches, rituals in the world, but God is common. In this regard, she professed great tolerance and fervently asserted that God requires us to be tolerant of others.

I remember Lodz as it was shown by Wajda in the film “The Promised Land” . Excellent film. Wajda has recreated Lodz exactly as I remember it from my school days. This theater, these factory owners, this luxury are often in bad taste... Well, the results of the labor themselves: the city practically arose in just 10-15 years. Thousands of people came - mostly Jews and Germans - and created Lodz out of nothing.

About myself and 1939

In the gymnasium I was, as they say, a crammer - I just studied and studied. Even then I dreamed that I would become a diplomat and represent my country. I had no doubt at all that Poland was one of the largest European powers. When I think about it now, I come to the conclusion that I was incredibly stupid. The whole set of Polish nonsense was sitting in my head.

I remember, when I later served in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, how indignant officials were with the British and French: what idiots, Hitler is leading them by the nose, organizing parades with tanks, but the tanks are cardboard! Our intelligence knows for certain that they are made of cardboard. We Poles are a brilliant people - we know everything. I went to war with a Leica - to photograph the generals when we were already in Berlin. What a fool I was! In two or three days I became a beggar: unwashed, smelly, penniless. I sold the Leika, then I wanted to sell my personalized saber. I went to the store and said: “So, they say, so, I don’t have money, but I want to eat. This saber is a historical relic, it has the president’s signature on it. Please buy it. When the war ends, I will return and buy it, and if I die , then any museum will be happy to acquire it." I still remember the shopkeeper’s answer, word for word: “Throw this damn thing into the ditch. Don’t cause trouble.”

About Mikolajczyk, Cyrankiewicz and others

Mikolajczyk 2 was a heavy, fat, simple, uneducated man, but unusually hardworking and persistent. I came to France and immediately began to learn French, and when I came to England I began to learn English. Sikorsky 3 spent 13 years in France, but never learned the language. The Poles know nothing about this. Mikolajczyk was self-taught, and above all else, a realist: he had no illusions. Unlike Sosnkovsky 4 , Anders 5 , and also Sikorsky. For them, not only an analysis of the political situation, but also personal ambitions played an important role. For example, Anders claimed that he certainly knows that it will come to war between the United States and Russia. Mikolajczyk did not claim this; he was a realist. Some say: “Oh, if Sikorski had not died, then all of post-war Poland would have looked different.” Nonsense! If Sikorski had not agreed to the concessions that Mikolajczyk made, the Americans or the French would have discovered documents irrefutably proving that Sikorski had been a fascist all his life and therefore could not be trusted. Objectively speaking, in July 1944 there was no room for an independent Poland. The Red Army, in pursuit of the German army, reached the borders of pre-war Poland. The Poles expected that at this moment Stalin would send a memorandum or something similar to the Polish government: “Let me cross the border of Poland, since this is your country.” Nonsense! The prime minister and minister of agriculture in the pro-Soviet Polish government was forced to flee the country in 1947, after which he lived in the United States.

Mikolajczyk was a simple man; the war caught him while he was plowing his small plot of land.

Cyrankiewicz 6 was an educated man of outstanding intelligence. The difference in cultural level between them was huge. Of course, a distinction must be made: what period of his life was Cyrankiewicz?

I knew him even before Auschwitz . I have not the slightest doubt that at that time Cyrankiewicz was the smartest Pole I had the chance to meet both in London and in Poland. Smart, brilliant, wise, calm, able to look forward - a great statesman. I knew Mikolajczyk very well. I trusted him, he paid me the same. I had a similar attitude towards Cyrankiewicz, but their careers developed, frankly, differently.

I consider Mikolajczyk a martyr, a political martyr of the “Polish cause.” He sacrificed himself. If he had not returned to Poland (and everyone in exile criticized him for this), then on the pages of history (Soviet, English, American) it would have been written that the Poles always behaved stupidly: an agreement was possible, but these stubborn Poles did not want talk to Marshal Stalin. Returning to Poland, Mikolajczyk proved: we did everything, absolutely everything possible, we even sacrificed our honor, our safety. Mikolajczyk was promised that he would be prime minister, he accepted the post of deputy prime minister, he risked prison to testify to history: we did everything to maintain at least some independence. This is the greatness of Mikolajczyk’s role. Then, in 1945, he really was the leader of Polish society. Polish society lost the war, and Mikolajczyk lost it along with it.

About Katyn

In April 1943 I was in London when the Katyn scandal broke out. I then met daily with the most influential people in England, and everyone was interested in what was happening in Poland. Every Englishman I met said: “You know, Karsky, maybe this time the Germans are telling the truth, maybe this is really the work of the Russians.” And immediately after that, each of them officially declared: “Only you, Poles, can be such idiots as to annoy Stalin. (Then there was no second front yet.) The Red Army is the savior of humanity, and you dare to criticize Stalin! Only a Polish bastard can do this!" This was said by the same British who had just claimed that the Germans were not lying about Katyn.

About the Holocaust

The Jews lived in terrible conditions. They had no state of their own, no regular armed forces, no international representation. They were forced to rely on third parties, whether they liked them or not. Karsky, presumably, was likable, but the others were not. And if it had been officially announced that the military doctrine would include such a goal as saving Jews, then Stalin would have become furious: “These bastards, all these Churchills, Roosevelts and other bastards! We are fighting here, throwing millions of people into battle, and "These idlers aren't even opening a second front! And they brazenly declare that they are defending the Jews, but won't utter a word about the Russian people!" It was simply impossible to do anything in defense of the Jews. British and American intelligence knew very well what was happening to the Jews. Surely they sympathized with them, worried, even pitied them - but this was just a secondary problem that had no military significance. It was a war where millions of people died and all of humanity had to be saved. Are there any Jews there? Who cared?

About Polish borders

Until the very end, I believed that the government would build us at least some kind of Poland. I did not have the slightest doubt that Ternopil, Lviv, Vilno should be written off as losses, and to balk on this issue would simply be a provocation. And one more thing that the Poles do not want to remember: there was not a single Anglo-American conference dedicated to the western borders of Poland. The British and Americans, on the contrary, protested: these vast territories in the West should not be given to Poland. We received the Oder-Neisse border only by the grace of Stalin. He did not give in and insisted: the Poles are entitled to this. Of course, Stalin had his own plans - he wanted to quarrel the Germans with the Poles forever. But he provided us with the western borders. Both Churchill and Roosevelt all protested: “It’s simply absurd to give Poland a border on the Neisse!” Churchill shouted: “I am not going to feed this Polish goose, he will choke on these territories!” And Stalin repeated: “The Poles deserve this, they suffered, they fought.” So thanks to Stalin we have such western borders.

About the meeting with Tuwim

I was sent on a secret mission to the USA. Professor Stanislav Kot, who was then the Minister of Information, instructed me at the same time to meet with Tuwim, who lived near New York. The cat learned that Tuwim had spoken in a very leftist spirit at some public meeting, and then published an article in a pro-communist newspaper. And at that time he received a permanent allowance from the London government. The cat told me: “Tell Tuwim that the government will not take away his benefits, no matter what he does. He is a great poet, he has a kind heart. Tell him how the Polish people suffer, what Russia is doing, what persecution we have in our homeland. Tell him to restrain himself a little. Let him not forget about us - about emigration, about the government." I went to Tuwim and conveyed what the Cat had said. And Tuwim was offended: he was a Polish poet, and for him borders were not that important. A white and red flag, or all red, or all white - it doesn't really matter to him. And then he wrote: “My homeland is Polish.”

About pathos and Poles

I am already an old man and have outgrown all this patriotic rhetoric. It's time to look at all these things honestly. And the Poles are hypocrites on many issues. Especially when we are talking about their nobility, dedication, their contribution to the war: they say, without the Poles, the Allies would probably have lost the war. No need to exaggerate, take it easy.

About 1989

For the first time in the history of Poland, what happened in 1989 happened - a miracle happened. Yes, Poles should thank the Lord God, hug and bow at each other’s feet. Not a single house was damaged, not a single person was killed - but such a turning point came. One system gave way to another. And today people make accusations that they do not differentiate between good Poles and bad ones. What nonsense! I live in America, and from my point of view, Walesa, Jaruzelski, and Kiszczak should receive the highest award - the Order of the White Eagle. All of them together accomplished the turning point without bloodshed. And glory to them all, and praise to both the left and the right. Finally, for the first time in the history of Poland, the Poles showed reason and proved that they know how to respect their own blood.

Fragments of an interview broadcast on Polish public television conducted by M. Faibusiewicz

Notes:

1 J. Pilsudski said about himself that he got off the tram going to the final station “Socialism” at the “Independence” stop. - Here and further approx. translator

2 Stanislaw Mikolajczyk (1901-1966) - leader of the peasant movement, in 1940-1944 deputy prime minister, then prime minister of the exile government in London, from June 1945 - deputy prime minister and minister of agriculture in the pro-Soviet Polish government, in 1947 year was forced to flee the country, after which he lived in the United States.

3 Wladyslaw Sikorski (1881-1943) - general, prime minister in 1921-1923, from September 1939 - head of the exile government in London, one of the organizers of the Polish Armed Forces in the West, died in a plane crash near Gibraltar.

4 Kazimierz Sosikowski (1885-1969) - general, hero of the defense of Warsaw in 1920, from September 1939 - minister in the Sikorski government, after whose death he was appointed Supreme Commander-in-Chief.

5 Wladyslaw Anders (1892-1970) - general, was interned in the USSR, after the conclusion of the Polish-Soviet Treaty in 1941, he became the commander of the Polish Army in the USSR, led it out of the USSR in 1942 and went through the entire war as commander of the 2nd Polish corps in the West.

6 Józef Cyrankiewicz (1911-1989) - politician, leader of the Polish Socialist Party, in 1941-1945 - a prisoner of Hitler's camps in Auschwitz and Mauthausen, in 1948 he implemented the communist concept of uniting socialists and communists. In 1947-1970 - alternately prime minister and deputy prime minister of the People's Republic of Poland, chairman of the State Council, in 1948-1972 - member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the PUWP.

New Poland, #11 (14), 2000