Date
Author
Беседовала Елена СУПОНИНА; Салахаддин--Эрбиль--Москва
Source
Preserved copy
Translated material
Masoud Barzani: Kurdistan stands on a sea of oil
Now Russian diplomats are already meeting in Baghdad with the rest of the Iraqi leaders, and then will go to Basra. The President of Kurdistan, leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, 59-year-old Masoud BARZANI, spoke to the Vremya Novostei observer about relations with Russia, the situation in Iraq and the Kurdish desire for independence.
— Mr. President, I remember when I talked to you in 2001, you had no doubt that Saddam Hussein’s regime would fall. But you were worried: what would happen after? The regime fell in the spring of 2003 - so what? The situation in Iraq is dangerous, people are dying every day, and politicians are fighting for power...
- Yes, that’s how I assessed the situation at the time, and I was right. Saddam's regime has fallen. And there was a great opportunity to build democracy in Iraq on a federal basis. However... Let me remind you that shortly before the fall of Saddam's regime, the opposition held two important conferences. One in London in December 2002, the other here, in Salahaddin (residence of Masoud Barzani - Ed. ), in February 2003. We agreed on how to prevent a power vacuum and how to ensure security in the country immediately after the fall of Saddam's regime. Unfortunately, these agreements were not implemented.
Then came UN Security Council Resolution 1483, according to which the troops that liberated us suddenly turned into occupation troops. At the same time, the Iraqis were not allowed to immediately create their own interim government. (The Americans first installed a military administration headed first by General Jay Garner, and then headed by State Department counter-terrorism specialist Paul Bremer. - Ed. ). Anarchy reigned and things got worse and worse. Responsibility for all this lies with that very UN Security Council resolution 1483. (The resolution was unanimously adopted by the UN Security Council in May 2003 after the end of the active phase of hostilities in Iraq. - Ed. )
— Do you agree with the opinion that there is already a civil war going on in Iraq?
-- There is no civil war in Iraq. But there are many problems. Murders, conflicts between representatives of various groups, including religious ones. Iraqi politicians are trying to prevent war, but the situation is getting worse, that's true. I would not like to call it a civil war yet, but I can no longer exclude the possibility that a civil war is about to begin.
— The Arab world is still discussing the statement made by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in early April that the problem is largely in the Iraqi Shiite Arabs, they say, they defend the interests of neighboring Iran, and not their country...
-- From a religious point of view, the Shiites of Iraq are closely related to Shiite Iran. But the Shiites have an even greater sense of unity with the Arab world than the Sunnis.
-- The Iraqi parliament still cannot form a new government. Ibrahim al-Jaafari does not suit many people, as far as I know, the Kurds too. It seems that the candidacy of another Shiite, Adil Abdel-Mahdi, is more acceptable to you...
- Adil Abdel-Mahdi is our great friend, we have known him for a long time. And if the Shiite United Iraqi Alliance proposes his candidacy, we will agree. But the majority party - that is, the United Iraqi Alliance - must nominate a candidate for prime minister. We have nothing personal against Mr. al-Jaafari. I emphasize, nothing personal. The only complaints are about his political program and management style. His premiership in Iraq has already faced many problems. Especially after the statements that he made during his visit to Turkey, where he went without consulting any of us (at the end of February. - Ed. ). Iraq was already boiling then. And then from the Turkish press we learned what they were talking about - how to act against the Kurds, against the Kurdish movement. However, in addition to the Kurds, al-Jaafari has opponents from many movements.
— The Kurds have another complaint against Ibrahim al-Jaafari - he does not want to solve the problem of Kirkuk. The Kurds believe that this city should be part of their autonomy; a special committee was created to determine the future status of Kirkuk, but al-Jaafari blocked its work in every possible way...
- Yes, he treated this committee with noticeable disdain.
Fight for land or oil?
-- The Committee must prepare a referendum in Kirkuk by the end of 2007 on whether the city should be part of Kurdish autonomy or not. And before that, we still need to return to the city the Kurdish refugees expelled from there by Saddam. But if they return, then the results of the referendum are clear - the Kurdish majority will vote to join the autonomy...
-- Certainly. That's true. The Kirkuk problem must be solved. Throughout the history of our struggle, this question has always been the main one. And we will solve it. But we want everything to be according to the law. The provisions on the referendum were already spelled out in the temporary administrative law, article 58. And now they are enshrined in the constitution, this is article 140. We agreed on everything. So we need to solve the problem.
- But you don’t seem to have time to solve the Kirkuk problem before 2007, as stated in the constitution? If nothing has been done yet on the issue of the return of Kurdish refugees, then there is little time left!
- We will solve the problem in a timely manner. If there is any slight delay, it will be due to the delay in the formation of a new permanent government in Iraq. After all, the new constitution is considered to have finally entered into force after the formation of a new government. Immediately after this, we will begin to persistently demand a solution to the Kirkuk problem.
- Many experts believe that the Kurds want to return Kirkuk because it is rich in oil.
- The former Iraqi authorities only considered Kirkuk in this way - for them it was oil. Yes, there is a lot of oil there. But for us Kurds, this is land. Kirkuk has become a symbol of the repression suffered by the Kurds. Thank God, we have oil in Kurdistan and in other areas. Kurdistan stands on a sea of oil. There is oil in Erbil, Dohuk, Khanaqin - everywhere. There is also a large amount of gas in the areas between Kirkuk and Sulaymaniyah.
— Do you want to return only Kirkuk or other settlements? Even the city of Mosul?
- We are also talking about Khanaqin, Shingara, Sheikhan, Makhmur, Mandali. When we talk about a referendum on Kirkuk, we mean a comprehensive solution to the problem of these areas. There are many settlements near Mosul, the vast majority of whose inhabitants are Kurds. Of course, they must return to Kurdistan. Their residents must also take part in the referendum.
-- Kurdish autonomy receives a share of the Iraqi budget, which is formed mainly from oil revenues. Under Saddam this share was 13%, now it is 17%. Is this enough?
- Yes, now according to the agreements it is 17%. Although sometimes the central authorities give us less. But the quota should increase in accordance with the share of the Kurdish population in Iraq. We must receive at least 25%. Somewhere up to 30%.
- And then you will ask for even more?
-- No no. The numbers I mentioned already imply the situation when the regions of Kirkuk, Khanaqin, Makhmur and others will return to us. Now, according to administrative division, these areas are subordinate to the federal government and are not part of the autonomy of Kurdistan. After their return to us, the number of autonomy will immediately increase (experts believe that from 4.5 million to almost 7 million out of the 27 million population of Iraq. - Ed. ). And just then we will need a budget quota of 25-30% maximum.
Iraq will not be split by the Kurds
-- Premier al-Jaafari does not want to give up power so easily. He has conditions, including that Iraqi President Jalal Talabani give up the post, apparently because he is a Kurd and not an Arab.
— There are those who do not like that Jalal Talabani became the president of Iraq. But he was nominated by the Kurdish Alliance, and, in my opinion, most other Iraqi movements also support this candidacy.
— Do you think it’s normal that the president of Iraq, where the majority of the population is Arab, is a Kurd, a member of a minority? Many Arab countries don't like this.
- This is very normal. We will never allow the Kurds in Iraq to be treated as a second-class population. It is quite possible that after some period Talabani will be replaced by a non-Kurdish president. And the point is not that, but the fact that we will not allow ourselves to be treated as “second-class Iraqis.” Only complete equality.
— At the end of March, a prominent representative of the Iraqi Sunni Arabs, Sheikh Haris al-Zari, visited Moscow. He accuses many Iraqi politicians, including Kurdish ones, of pushing into the new constitution clauses regarding a federal structure that lay the basis for splitting the country. After all, the Kurdish autonomy has the right to secede from Iraq if the country continues to move not towards democracy, but towards war and anarchy.
- The Kurds have never been in favor of splitting the country. Are it the Kurds who kill Shiites and Sunnis in Baghdad? Not at all! It is the Shiites and Sunnis who are in conflict with each other, and the Kurds are trying to reconcile them.
- But the Kurds insisted on a federal structure in Iraq?
- Yes, we consider federation the best form of government in Iraq. And this is the opinion of the majority of Iraqis who voted for a new constitution in October 2005. Sheikh al-Zari may have a different opinion, but he must respect the opinion of the majority.
– Is there still a danger of a split in Iraq?
- In any case, the Kurds will not cause the collapse of Iraq. And if some other reasons lead to a split, then this is beyond our area of responsibility.
- Do you think that it would be better for foreign troops to leave Iraq as soon as possible?
- Without a doubt, the day must come when foreign troops will leave the country. But against the backdrop of the current anarchy, it is impossible to even name the time frame for when this will happen. Foreign troops can only leave when Iraqi forces are able to provide security on their own. Now there is no such thing.
"Russia plays no role in Iraq"
-- Russia opposed the war in Iraq and maintained good relations with Saddam, having little contact with the opposition that had now come to power.
- Yes, that's true.
-- Will this affect the interests of Russian companies? Russian oil workers and power engineers would like to continue working in Iraq...
- We want to develop relations with Russia. And we are not going to settle scores for the past. We must move forward.
— So Russian business will return to Iraq?
- Why not? By the way, just these days a delegation from the Russian Foreign Ministry is visiting us.
—And how do you assess Russia’s role in Iraq?
- Russia today does not play any role in Iraq. Russia has no influence on the situation. I would advise the Russians to choose an effective force that they could rely on in Iraq. There is no need to bet on those who have no influence on the future of the country.
—Have you ever been to Moscow? Your father, the famous Kurdish leader and politician Mustafa Barzani, even found refuge in the USSR soon after the Second World War.
- We remember this support and are grateful for it. As for me, I have never been to Moscow and would gladly visit it when there are suitable conditions and appropriate invitation. I can’t come as a tourist!
"Our main friends are Americans"
— Do you still dream of creating an independent state of Kurdistan?
- This is our natural right.
- And when will this happen?
- I can’t say that yet.
- But will your neighbors, Syria, Iran, Türkiye - and Kurds also live there - allow this?
- The world is changing quickly. What is happening in Iraq would have seemed like just a strange dream ten to fifteen years ago. Who could have imagined that this was possible? I am against subsequent changes occurring through the use of force or anything like that. I am for democratic changes, for dialogue. But change is inevitable. They have already happened. The Iraqi Constitution confirmed new rights for us. This has never happened in the history of the Kurds.
--Are you closer to independence than ever before?
- Not quite like that. Perhaps now we are closest to realizing our national rights through constitutional means. We cannot come to parliament and declare the independence of Kurdistan. So we will lose international support, we will lose friends. Now is a very important stage. And we must calculate every step. And before every new step, we must definitely enlist international support.
—Are your most important friends today the Americans?
-- Certainly. They helped us. They overthrew the dictatorial regime. They opened up new opportunities for the Kurdish people.