Photo: Tanya Sommer

— You just recently became a great-grandfather. Has anything changed dramatically?

— A Komsomolskaya Pravda correspondent told me: “Do you know that great-grandfathers go straight to heaven, without any checks?” So, there are probably not that many of them. I say: well, what is there to do in this paradise?

- Would you rather go to hell?

- What about herding sheep? I'm not from that cohort. No, being a great-grandfather is nice. We still have the cult of family; there is no running station. They sold their apartments and bought a common house. And we all live there.

— How many of you are there now, it turns out?

- Well, here I am with the office. Irina (daughter. - BG) with her husband, Ksenia (granddaughter. - BG) - now there will be three of them - and Nastya (granddaughter. - BG). Everyone has their own apartment.

— Do you feel that your name is becoming more and more popular over time?

- This is good. And not so much for me, I drank in everything. But Raisa suffered greatly. How many myths and legends have been invented... She was not immediately understood. And only then, when she was lying and dying in Munster... Several thousand letters came from all over the world. Newspapers wrote. But she couldn’t wear anything like that, everything was strict there. I just showed her an article from the Izvestia newspaper, it was called “Lady Dignity”. I read it to her, and she cried and said: “Did I really have to die in order to be understood?” Now I can’t even say this without tears... She left early. She was alive, young, and terribly did not want to become an old woman. Raisa was very fond of the parable about a woman’s age: “Girl. Young woman. Young woman. Young woman. Young woman. Old woman".

— When do you think the world was safer: in your times or now?

— The eighties were a very busy decade. Mountains of nuclear weapons have accumulated, control systems have already begun to fail... Once, geese flew across Canada from our side. And on the radars, these flocks turned out to be similar to the outlines of Soviet bombers. Well, no one lost their nerve. But a completely real war could have started - simply because of such a failure. And the mistrust is boundless. For six years our leadership did not go to America, and no one came to us. But we still managed to create a trusting atmosphere.

—Where is this atmosphere now?

“Now, unfortunately, everything that we achieved then in relations with the Americans has been thrown into the wind. All the signs of a new arms race are evident. There are fewer nuclear weapons, of course, but there are still enough to destroy the world several times over. This is all bad, very bad. But actually, we are still alive - those who led the world out of the Cold War. And while we are alive, we must try with the new generation, the Obama generation, to find a solution.

— You yourself say that then relations between America and the Soviet Union were much worse. Why was it possible to reach an agreement then, but now it’s not possible?

— People lack competence, responsibility, wisdom. We have become very interested in hoarding and our private pursuits. This is not the point. A real politician should not worry about these issues. Of course, he must be provided for, but not so much that he goes crazy, creating yachts, a fleet and all this nonsense. In the 80s, people simply came together who were able to take responsibility. Really great personalities. Thatcher, Reagan, Mitterrand, Andreotti, Gonzalez, and so on.

— They say that in your time politics was driven by ideas, but now by the interests of large corporations. This is true?

— The politicians of my time were still more moral. And then what started! How they plundered Russia - well, they simply robbed it. I still can’t forgive myself. In particular, that he was too liberal and did not send Boris Nikolaevich Yeltsin to the right place in his time. That's my fault.

- Do you still think so?

- Yes! Why did I initially appreciate and support Putin so highly? Because Russia, generally speaking, has let loose. It could have ended anywhere. The country is stuffed with such weapons... And yet he succeeded. He did not have time to study the postulates of democracy. Power had to be concentrated. What kind of government is this when two-thirds of the republics ignored the Russian constitution in their constitutions? This is a collapse. The army was spreading, education was destroyed, science was in such a state - that’s all. And what Putin did in the first period will remain in history. But further... We need to modernize the country, but who will carry out these plans of Putin? I see how he strains both himself and society - he strains and strains, but it doesn’t work out very well.

— Of what Putin and Medvedev are doing, what do you fundamentally disagree with?

— I have serious comments regarding party building. Parties are the basis of democracy. What kind of party is this “United Russia”? A bunch of bureaucrats. What they, the authorities, did with the electoral system is also very bad. One person or group of people does not modernize. So far they believe Putin, but you know... At the beginning of 1990, according to polls, Gorbachev had 60-70, or even 80 percent, and Yeltsin was in second place with 12 percent. But it started in the fall: the stores were empty, the whole country was in queues, and so on. Everything can be lost very quickly. I wouldn't like to see all this again, to be honest. Well, with the involvement of personnel from St. Petersburg, they obviously overdid it. Soon, probably, St. Petersburg janitors will be sent to Moscow for managerial work.

— Does it offend you to watch what is happening between Russia and America now?

- It's a shame - this, you know, is a slobbering position. Politicians are not offended. But I’m worried - I’m a living person, not a mummy.

- Well, who is to blame: Russia or America?

- This is an important question. Russia did not intend - and does not intend - to fight with the States. And Putin initially tried to improve relations, everyone saw this. After 9.11, he was the first to support Bush and offer cooperation in the fight against terrorism. But on the other side... They clearly felt that history would not present such a chance again: all opponents were defeated, Russia was in a helpless state and would rise for a long time, so it was necessary to powerfully crush everything under itself - and the States got into Iraq. But pretending to rule the world alone will not lead to anything good. This is the wrong strategy. And then - the budget was approved in the Senate. And the Minister of Defense (I know him well, he is a former head of the CIA) suddenly burst out: listen, he says, we may still have to fight with China and Russia! So he wanted to add money to the military budget... That's what's in their heads.

“But judging by the results of the latest elections, that’s not all they have on their minds.

- You know, three years ago I spoke in the States and told them that we, of course, have a lot of problems with democracy, with elections, but America also has its own problems! The country is exhausted by military measures - Europe has already overtaken America in terms of GDP... And I tell this gym, 12 thousand were present: “America needs its own perestroika.” The audience gave such a standing ovation! Even then it was clear that everyone was waiting for change. And here is the result. Elect Obama, a young man of a different race. All this is incredible for America.

- What do you think about him?

“I watched him and I think that Obama is a very capable person, and this can compensate for the lack of experience. Another thing is that America needs fundamental changes. I don't think he can handle them.

- Why?

"That's America."

— Do you like the way Russia’s current foreign policy is being conducted? Many call it imperial.

- Well, that's nonsense. As Putin, apparently answering a Le Figaro correspondent, said: listen, what imperial manners?! Russia's position determined the collapse of the Soviet Union! If Russia had not taken the position it did, the empire would not have collapsed!

Photo: Reuters

— Russia could someday become a member of the EU, what do you think?

— Two years ago in the city of Passau in southern Germany, Kohl and I met with an audience, and he was asked about the same thing. You should have seen how these 150 kilograms of weight rushed over the table: “What are you talking about!” Despite the fact that Kohl is my friend, a real one, these are not empty words. No, neither they nor we are ready for this.

— You are the only Russian politician who said that Russia’s recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia was wrong. What do you generally think about this conflict?

- These Georgians tortured me! I love them no less than Russians. And I am glad that, nevertheless, it seems that the Georgians have not given up on the Russians and the Russians have not given up on the Georgians. Of course, there are all sorts of conversations. Well, how can we do without talking? As for the August events, I have long suggested to the Georgians: Abkhazia and South Ossetia have been living on their own in these enclaves for so many years, give them federal status! But the Georgians were afraid that this would be the collapse of the state. And now no force will drive them into Georgia. And Russia could not take a different position. But now it’s important for everyone not to go completely crazy. Start conversations. They have already begun, by the way. First they quarreled, and then they had lunch together, this is how it happens in the Caucasus. After all, I am a person from the Caucasus - I know: everything can be solved there and everything can be destroyed.

In general, you can never say “never” in diplomacy. Anything is possible. When the Second World War ended, the British generally said: everything must be done so that a nation like the Germans does not exist in principle. The American project was to divide Germany into several states like principalities. And ours stood for a united Germany. Well, what happened is what happened. But we came to something! I think that in our spaces a union like the EU is possible, where there will be Ukraine, Belarus, and Georgia.

- Do you really think this is real?

- Not now. But someday those who don’t want this will leave! This is not about an empire: no one wants to go back to the USSR. But everyone wants to unite and cooperate, all surveys show this.

— When you, the first and last president of the USSR, hear about the collapse of the Evil Empire or the collapse of a great empire, what do you feel? If you could return everything, would you change anything?

- Certainly. The party had to be reformed. Everything hung on her then: she slowed everything down. And it was necessary to immediately decentralize the Union: give the rights of independent states, but maintain a democratic confederal state. We were forced to resolve operational pressing issues. They raised teachers' salaries, pensions were terrible... We then spent 45 billion on this. And at the same time, oil prices fell to 10-12 dollars. Two thirds! Saudi Arabia did this at Reagan's request. MacFarlane, a former Reagan aide, recently admitted this publicly. This is a knife in the back from a “friend of Reagan.” And undoubtedly: at a crucial moment, when it turned out that there was money but nothing to buy, we should have taken 15-20 billion dollars from the military budget, multiplied by 6 (that’s how much a dollar cost us during purchases) - and that’s it, we would have removed the hanging pressure over the market. Because people will only support you as long as the store has everything. Now, while this still exists, as long as Putin ensures this, everything will be fine, no matter what anyone says.

— Do you have nostalgia for the Soviet Union?

- Of course, there are many regrets. I wrote several books about how the Union could have been saved. But you know, all the surveys show: people are nostalgic, but they don’t want to go back. He wants 9 percent, no more. And cooperation between countries is yes. A new union in which there is no need to be afraid, to deploy missiles, there is no need for Ukraine or the Transcaucasian republics to join NATO... But this is so - an idea.

— In April, journalist Zoya Svetova sent you an open letter asking for assistance in the release of Vasily Aleksanyan. They agreed to release him on bail. Do you have anything to do with this?

- Well, I supported it.

— Many of my friends were sent a letter about the pardon of Svetlana Bakhmina. Did you sign it?

“I said I wouldn’t sign.” In general, I try to avoid these signatories and signatures. But I said that I join and support. You can report this.

— How does the President of the USSR live now? Where do you, say, like to relax?

— I traveled abroad all the time, to the sea with all my family and friends. And the last time I didn’t go, due to health reasons. My health is still getting worse. Gradually, but getting worse.

— What book did you last read?

— I started reading few books, which I regret. Although I watch a lot of movies, both ours and American ones. I love French. I think I like all of Lungin’s films. We are friends, and we even have some plans. “Penal Battalion” was staged very well. Then “Cargo 200”.

— Did you like “Cargo 200”?!

- It doesn’t even matter whether you like it or not. It's just a very important film. So that we know, remember what is happening to us. Well, of course there is a lot of nonsense. Let's say, I completely stopped watching TV series.

—Have you watched it before?

— At first I watched it, but now I quit. No, they say there are good ones there, but I don’t watch any of them. We have a large film library. If we put aside this whole American meat grinder, there are very sharp political films, there are social films, and there are stunning melodramas.

— Do you listen to music in the car?

- Mostly news. But I also listen to the Classic channel all the time.

— And, of course, everyone is interested in: do you use a Louis Vuitton bag?

- Huh?

- Do you use a Louis Vuitton travel bag - a bag like this?

- No.

- No?

- You see, no one funds me. Yeltsin created a foundation, there is funding, staff. And I have to provide everything myself. And of course, I am looking for sponsors. And we have a lot of work: the fund has grown - it’s almost an empire. And I have to travel a lot. With paid lectures.

— In the advertising photo of Louis Vuitton, where you are sitting in a car, next to you lies The New Times magazine, and on the cover there is a cover story about Litvinenko’s poisoning. That's a coincidence?

- Absolutely. Well, maybe not for them. It’s like this: they put me there, you here - and that’s it.

— There are still legends about your guard. That he is so devoted and devoted - from the first day he does not leave your side.

— I generally have little security. They take turns on duty - three guards and a commander, a colonel from the airborne troops.

“My grandfather once blindly believed in communism, then he became a democrat, then he was baptized. I still cannot understand whether he is a believer or not. Are you a believer?

— You know, several years ago in Italy I was awarded the Francis of Assisi Prize. The abbot came rushing from Rome, showed me everything, and talked. And suddenly I read in Italian newspapers that Gorbachev knelt at the tomb of Francis of Assisi, that he almost converted to Catholicism. Our people picked it up, there was a noise... Well, in general, I had to say that I go everywhere: in Buddhist temples, and in synagogues, and in mosques, and in Orthodox and Catholic churches - I, in principle, am a baptized person. But I want to declare: I was and remain an atheist. A day later everything subsided: as an atheist, no one needs me.

— Is it true that your name was changed from Victor to Mikhail as a child?

“The father and mother were named Victor, and two weeks later the grandfather baptized him in a neighboring village. And when the churchman asked him what we would call him, he said: “Mikhail.” I do not know why.

— There would be Viktor Gorbachev.

- Do you know that Mikhail is a Jewish name? When we started having grandchildren, we began to study names one book at a time. So, Michael translated from Hebrew means “equal to God.” So the grandfather was not mistaken.

Atheist equal to God