"Fifth Act" Ingmara Bergman.

Dmitry Volchek: a book that I am very pleased to imagine in this issue of the radio journal, this is a perfectly published, with excellent illustrations and audio support of the dramatic works of Ingmar Bergman “The Fifth Act”. He was prepared by the theater studies, Natalya Kazimirovskaya and Nathan Gorelik, and we agreed with them on July 14, on the birthday of the great Swedish director, to talk about Ingmar Bergman and this book. Natasha, after all, work on the “fifth act” stretched for two decades, and the first version was already published once?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: Two decades have not yet run, it seems to me that it was the end of the 90s when it all started. Indeed, there are several moments in our activities related to the translation of Bergman, because first the work “after rehearsal” appeared in the journal of the deceased Lesha Kazantsev “Dramaturg”, at the same time negotiations began on the creation of the book “Fifth Act”, which includes “after rehearsals”, “monologue” of Bergman, “noise” and “last scream” - that is, four - that is, four. works. And at the same time, this happened in parallel, the Moscow Art Theater, which celebrated its anniversary, Efremov was very interested in the play “After the Rehearsal” and began to negotiate with me about the production of the Moscow Art Theater. At first, a very modest book was published, which was called the Fifth Act of Bergman, and now the same book was a second edition, it looks completely different, it is illustrated by Vanilius photographs, one of the most leading Swedish photographers, which worked most with Bergman, and these are completely unique photo documents.

Dmitry Volchek: Did Bergman himself know about your work, saw the first edition?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: I don’t know if he saw, but he knew about our work certainly, because in order to engage in Bergman’s translations, we need to receive permission. And with the receipt of these permits during the life of Bergman there were big problems. That is, if for the book these problems were solved by the Norshtet publishing house, which was the agent of Bergman, then Bregman did not give permission to set up his scenarios or television during his lifetime, and the last permission given to him in Russia was in any case, this was permission to produce “after rehearsal” in my translation in my translation.

Dmitry Volchek: In general, the Russian Bergmanian is very extensive, his memoirs “Laterna Magika”, the book “Pictures” have long been translated, a collection of articles compiled by the Swedish film institute for the 70th anniversary of the director, was the collection “Bergman about Bergman” and, of course, many retrospective films and theatrical productions. Maybe there is no other director who would be so well known and loved in Russia as Bergman and, by the way, this love itself was the subject of analysis in the Bergmann issue of the magazine “Session”. Nathan, why is Bergman so loved in Russia?

Nathan Gorelik: It is quite difficult to answer such a difficult question right away, but, apparently, his ability in his works - both in the cinema and in the literary - to penetrate the caches of the human soul, into human psychology, probably this attracts, first of all, the Russian viewer and reader.

Dmitry Volchek: I now recall my acquaintance with Bergman, it began a little non -standard, not with the “strawberry meadow” - the first picture that came out in the Soviet box office - but from the film “Person”. I saw him on a half-closed viewing by a schoolboy and, probably, the word “stunning” is most accurate here, because it seemed to me then that this was not an ordinary film, but something supernatural, some kind of absolute perfection, magic. Natasha, do you remember your first acquaintance with Bergman?


Natalya Kazimirovskaya: Of course, I remember. I had it traditional, it was precisely the “strawberry meadow”. We penetrated this film with great difficulty in St. Petersburg. Naturally, when we arrived in Sweden in 1989, it could not even occur to me that in the end we would also have happiness to engage in Bergman’s translations, because it seemed to me too, as you now said that everything was already translated, everything has been said a long time ago. But you mentioned theatrical productions and must tell you that what happened and what the theaters were put, it was all pirate productions that very upset Bergman and his representatives here, because permission for these theatrical productions was never received, there were no longer misunderstandings on this occasion.

Dmitry Volchek: Nathan, do you remember your acquaintance with Bergman?

Nathan Gorelik: Of course, I also saw a “strawberry meadow” in St. Petersburg, but I actually met with Bergman already in Sweden, and this, of course, was a shock. And for the first time I met a theater Bergman with his performances in Drama. In my opinion, the first performance was the “Per Gunt” that I saw. A magnificent, stunning performance, which was first staged for a small scene, such a grandiose epic in a small stage space, then it was transferred to a large stage, at the request and desire of the audience. It was an amazing job. Then, of course, the cinema and the very personality of Bergman, which attracted and amazed in many senses.

Dmitry Volchek: For us, Bergman was generally Sweden, was the main Swedish artist, but in Sweden itself the attitude of the public, criticism and the state to Bergman was, let's say, difficult in different periods. I remember how young Swedes told me in the 80s that Bergman was exported, they do not have such a Bergman’s cult as abroad and all this is outdated. Actually, the same situation is in Russia, in a sense. For a foreigner who is interested in Russian cinema, Eisenstein and Tarkovsky will always be in the first places, this is undeniable, and for the Russian viewer everything is not so unambiguous and completely not the fact that he will immediately call these names. Natasha, how did the attitude towards Bergman change over the years that you live in Sweden, and how does his figure look in the mirror of public opinion now, two years after his death? By the way, this second anniversary is very soon - July 30.

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: You are absolutely right, in Sweden the attitude to Bergman is very ambiguous, as it was, as it is. I also remember how the magazine “SENISE” was created, about which you talked about, we did an interview with various people - and ordinary spectators, and even with students of the film institute - and almost everyone - very few who spoke otherwise - treated our issues skeptical and said that he was a good director, but this does not mean that he is so great, this is only an attitude towards him. And, unfortunately, this all continued and continues. In addition, the Swedes are large Puritans, and therefore all his complex relationships with women and children, his whole life that he discovered and poured on all his most secret sides, they all shock them. And, in principle, in Sweden they are very restrained, they also apply to Strindberg in the same way. Even in the Swedish language there is no word “great” is the word maximum “big”. As for what is happening now, of course, he becomes slowly a monument, and therefore people of culture want to promote his work as much as possible, are ready to support views, presentations, and performances. Now the Bergmanovsky festival has arisen on this wave, so it has just passed, where several of its scenarios are set. And, I must say that during the life of Bergman it was categorically against the fact that his works not intended for the theater were recreated on the stage. And then a wave of productions suddenly went, and it is completely unknown how Bergman would have reacted to this. Recently, an article appeared in the press, a well -known theater department of Sern, who writes that he thinks that Bergman would be very surprised and dissatisfied with what was happening. I must say that if you talk about our book again, return to the topic of our conversation, then the first edition of this book was quite modestly done. Nathan can tell very well about this, because the book is called the “Fifth Act”, and this has its own meaning. And I want to say that when the second edition came out, there were already photographs and biographical materials, that is, that during his lifetime, Bergman did not allow Bergman to do in this book. When he was gone, it became already possible to do almost everything.

Dmitry Volchek: Nathan, “Fifth Act” is the last act of classical drama, right?

Nathan Gorelik: Yes. But it may be the impression that we gave the name to this book. In fact, the Bergman himself called the book the book. In fact, this is one of the few, and maybe his only book, which is not just a collection of scripts made by the publishing house or editors, or his family life and narrative. This collection of dramatic works was compiled by Bergman himself, and Bergman himself gave the name of this book. This collection included four works that are dedicated to the theater and cinema, that is, those eternal companions who accompanied Bergman all his life. And in this sense, this book, as it seemed to us, now, after the departure of the great master, is of particular interest. This is a kind of creative testament of the director, writer, as it seems to me.

Dmitry Volchek: The book also has an audio application. Natasha talked about the pirate productions of Bergman’s plays in Russia, but your book complements the legal performance.

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: The book complements the audio recording of Yursky, who called this record and the book “Our Black A Genius”. He uttered this phrase several times. But the production of those years in the Moscow Art Theater was legal, because Bergman first gave such permission to the theater. When, for example, the “Seans” magazine was made, Andrei Plakhov and Lyuba Arkus came here and wanted Bergmanovsky for this special release, so that he would at least sign, did not write a few words, and at least put his signature, give permission on the first page to demonstrate it, he refused to them. And he not only allowed this performance to put in the Moscow Art Theater, but when I was driving to the premiere, Moscow flew, he handed over his congratulations to the theater and his parting words and wish.

Dmitry Volchek: Sergey Yursky recorded this disk?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: The disk for the book was recorded by Jurassic and his family. It is a little even symbolic, this book is also our family product, and the Yursky family made the performance “After the rehearsal”: Yursky, Tenyakova and Dasha, and what is recorded on this disk is their performance. This is a converted performance, the one that went to the Moscow Art Theater, but as if for the radio.

Dmitry Volchek: After all, Bergman has many students of famous, followers - Bill August, Liv Ulman. I would like to talk about the heirs of Bergman, about his troupe, his actors, about their achievements of recent years that they have been doing.

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: For example, Marie Bonevi was just sitting in the jury of the Film Festival in Karlovy Vary, what was the other day. To say that he has so many followers or students, it seems to me that this is some stretch. But, of course, the actors, many of whom are still alive, did their best work with him. Some of them, say, Liv Ulman, began to engage in directing. I don’t know if it is possible to say that these are his students in the literal sense. How does Natan believe?

Nathan Gorelik: There may be no such obvious students or followers in directing, well, except for Liv Ulman and August, who accepted or accepted the methods, approaches to cinema, the film review of Bergman. But the actors, those called Bergman's actors, they continue to work and most of them continue to play on the drama stage, continue to work with Alsted Stroke, and Pernilla August and Lena Andre. In recent years, they have very interesting works. I think that joint work with Bergman left a great mark not only in their biographies, but also gave a peculiar impetus to continue their life in the theater and in the cinema.

Dmitry Volchek: Natasha, you have already started a story about the Bergman festival, which was recently. What were the most remarkable productions?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: “whisper and screams” were delivered from the Bergman’s works - this is the “Tunnel” theater from Amsterdam, and “From the Life of Puppets” - was the Hamburg Theater. You know, although this festival was called Bergmanovsky, and it was said that it was made under the sign of the spiritual heritage of Bergman, in fact I had the feeling that it was made, rather, under the sign of the spiritual heritage of the chief director of this Holm theater, he was just leaving the theater and chose a large number of works to his taste. But that is not the point. The fact that, thanks to the name of Bergman, the first time arose to make a serious international theater festival in Sweden, because, oddly enough, there was still no such festival. And I think that the idea of the creators, on the one hand,, of course, to do this very at a high professional level, and it was at a high professional level, those performances that were played, do it worthy and name this festival in the name of Bergman. On the other hand, this is the idea of an international festival in Sweden, to which it will be possible to invite interesting theaters from abroad. So far, there are economic opportunities to hold this festival again, and there is a hope that it will continue. It was quite interesting, but directly to Bergman or the tastes of Bergman, in my opinion, this festival had nothing to do.

Dmitry Volchek: Natasha, there were disputes about Bergman's material inheritance, I saw this in the newspapers, about the fate of his papers, his archive, his house on the island of Farah. How was the situation resolved there?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: In my opinion, she was not resolved, but I think that Nathan could tell more, because he was Bergmann last year, it was on this island, where it was still played out of fresh traces, and I can only say that, apparently, serious skirmishes, not only related to the house. For example, there was a very funny situation when the Baltic House theater festival in St. Petersburg wanted to award the Berthmist Zvezda Award, which was at one time awarded to Andgei Waida, he came, received this award, and many other very interesting people. And so they wanted to do this last year and to give Bergmann, but the children did not agree among themselves who would come to receive this prize, because at first one son agreed, then he refused and, apparently, no one knew who was the right to take on this money bonus. As for this house, I think that Nathan can tell in more detail, since he witnessed all these conversations directly on the island.


Dmitry Volchek: Nathan, what is happening with the house on the island of the Forer and is there any hope that someday there will appear a museum of Bregman?

Nathan Gorelik: Firstly, with regard to the literary, diary, documentary heritage of Bergman, there is no problem here. In his life, he transferred most of his archive to the Stockholm film Institute. Now, after the death of Bergman, a special fund has been created, which is called the “Ingmara Bregman Foundation”, which owns all the documents, all the archive transferred by Bergman and his family to this fund and, I must say that the Swedish state has found quite significant means to support this fund, which allowed us to put in order and continue to work with all a very large and interesting archive. Now digitalization of the entire archive is carried out, this is also a very large and expensive job. Again, the Sweden government allocated funds for the holding of this international theater festival named after Bergman or in memory of Bergman. The only problem that continues to bother the Swedish theatrical and movie circles is Bergman's house. Soon after the death of Bergman, an initiative arose to create a museum on the site of this house on the island of Forer, and, secondly, such a house of creativity, which could come to young authors, screenwriters, filmmakers and work on their works. But Bergman bequeathed this house to his children, he ordered it to sell it at the highest price, and the amount handed should be divided between all heirs. And the children fulfill the will of the father, they sell this house. Now he is given for sale to a well-known auction, in my opinion, “Christie”, and, of course, the amounts that can appear in this auction, the public of Sweden cannot yet be collected. And to find private sponsors who could buy this house and betray it for such noble creative goals, has not yet been found. A special initiative group was created, a commission headed by former Prime Minister of Sweden Ingmar Karlson, who is now involved in this problem. I know that the last action held by this initiative group, they published their appeal to the American filmmakers in the newspaper, in the Hollywood body, in which they are just asked to participate in solving this problem. This is the case today.

Dmitry Volchek: I hope that this house will acquire a philanthropist and create a director of the director in it, and I want, in conclusion of a conversation with theatrical studies Natalya Kazimirovskaya and Nathan Gorelik, who prepared the Russian edition of Ingmara Bergman's book “Fifth Act”, to draw the attention of students to the new website of the Moscow Museum of Cinema- http://www.museikino.ru/ - A lot of work of Ingmar Bergman was published there “every film - the last”.