The will of Ingmar Bergman

- Natasha, work on the “fifth act” stretched for two decades, and once the first version came out?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: Two decades have not yet run, it seems to me - it was the end of the 90s when it all began. Indeed, there are several points in our activities related to the translation of Ingmar Bergman . First, in the magazine of the deceased Alexei Kazantsev , the playwright appeared a work "after a rehearsal." At the same time, negotiations began on the creation of the book “Fifth Act”, which includes “After a rehearsal”, “Monologue”, “Noise and pretending” and “The Last Scream” - that is, four works of Bergman. And at the same time, the Moscow Art Theater celebrated its anniversary. Oleg Efremov was very interested in the play "After the rehearsal" and began to negotiate with me about the production of the Moscow Art Theater. At first, a very modest book was published, which was called the Fifth Act of Bergman, and now the same book was published by the second edition. She looks completely different, she is illustrated by the photos of Vanilius, one of the most leading Swedish photographers who worked with Bergman most, and these are completely unique photo documents.

- And Bergman himself knew about your work, did he see the first edition?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: I don’t know if he saw, but he certainly knew about our work, because in order to engage in Bergman’s translations, one should get permission. And with the receipt of these permits during the life of Bergman there were big problems. For the publication of the book, these problems were solved by the agents of the Norhtet publishing house, which was an agent of Bergman. But Bregman did not give permission during his lifetime to produce his scenarios, written for cinema or television. And the last permit given to them (in Russia, in any case) - this was a permit for the production "after rehearsal" in the Moscow Art Theater in my translation.

- The Russian Bergmaniana is very extensive, his memoirs “Laterna Magika”, the book “Pictures” have long been translated, was a collection of articles compiled by the Swedish film institute for the 70th anniversary of the director, was the Bergman about Bergman's 70th anniversary and, of course, many retrospective films and theatrical productions. Maybe there is no other director who would be known and loved in Russia as Bergman and, by the way, this love itself was the subject of analysis in the Bergmann issue of the magazine "Session". Nathan, why is Bergman so loved in Russia?

Nathan Gorelik: It is quite difficult to answer such a difficult question right away, but, apparently, his ability in his works - both in the cinema and in the literary - to penetrate the caches of the human soul, into human psychology, probably this attracts, first of all, the Russian viewer and reader.

- My acquaintance with Bergman, it began not with the "strawberry glade" - the first picture that came out at the Soviet box office - but from the film "Person." I saw him on a half -closed viewing by a schoolboy and, probably, the word "stunning" will be used here mostly. It seemed to me then that this was not an ordinary film, but something supernatural, some kind of absolute perfection, magic. Natasha, do you remember your first acquaintance with Bergman?

Bergman is slowly becoming a monument, and therefore people of culture want to promote his work as much as possible

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: Of course, I remember. I had it traditional, it was precisely the "strawberry glade." We in St. Petersburg penetrated this film with great difficulty. Naturally, when we arrived in Sweden in 1989, it could not even occur to me that in the end we would fall happiness to engage in Bergman’s translations, because it seemed to me too, as you now said that everything was already translated, everything was done a long time ago. But you mentioned theatrical productions, and you must tell you that what the theaters were put - it was all pirate productions that very upset Bergman and his representatives here because permission for these theatrical productions was never received, and there were large misunderstandings about this.

- Nathan, do you remember your acquaintance with Bergman?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: Of course, I also saw a "strawberry clearing" in St. Petersburg, but I actually met with Bergman already in Sweden, and this, of course, was a shock. And for the first time I met the theater Bergman with his performances in Drama. In my opinion, the first performance that I saw was Pens Gunt. A magnificent, amazing performance, which was first staged for a small scene. It was such a grandiose epic in a small stage space, and then it was transferred to a large stage, at the request of the audience. It was an amazing job! Then, of course, the cinema and the very personality of Bergman, which attracted and amazed in many senses.

- For us, Bergman was generally Sweden, was the main Swedish artist, but in Sweden itself the attitude of the public, criticism and the state to Bergman was, let's say, difficult in different periods. I remember how the young Swedes said to me back in the 80s that Bergman is export, that they do not have such a Bergman’s cult as abroad, and in general all this is outdated. Actually, the same situation in Russia in a sense. For a foreigner who is interested in Russian cinema, Eisenstein and Tarkovsky will always be in the first places, and for the Russian viewer everything is not so unambiguous and not at all the fact that he will immediately call these names. Natasha, how did the attitude towards Bergman change over the years that you live in Sweden, and how does his figure look in the mirror of public opinion now, two years after his death? By the way, this second anniversary is very soon - July 30.

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: You are absolutely right, in Sweden the attitude to Bergman is very ambiguous, as it was, it remains. I also remember how the magazine "Session" was created, which you talked about. We made an interview with various people - ordinary spectators, and even with students of the film institute - and almost all (very few who spoke otherwise) were skeptical about our issues and said that he was a good director, but this does not mean that he is so great, this is only an attitude abroad. And, unfortunately, this all continued and continues. In addition, after all, the Swedes are large Puritans, and therefore all his complex relationships with women and children, his whole life, when he discovered and poured his most secret sides on all the most hidden, is all shocking them. In Sweden, it is also very restrained to Strindberg. Even in the Swedish language there is no word "great" there is a word-maximum-"large".

As for what is happening now, of course, he slowly becomes a monument, and therefore people of culture want to promote his work as much as possible, are ready to support views, presentations, and performances. Now the Bergmanovsky festival has arisen on this wave, where several of its scenarios are set. I must say that during the lifetime Bergman was categorically against the fact that his work not intended for the theater would be recreated on the stage. And then a wave of productions suddenly went, and it is completely unknown how Bergman himself would have reacted to this. Recently, an article appeared in the press, a well -known theater department of Sern, who writes that he thinks that Bergman would be very surprised and dissatisfied with what was happening.

If you return to the topic of our conversation and talk about our book, then its first edition was made quite modestly. Nathan can tell about this very well, because the book is called the Fifth Act, and this has its own meaning. And I want to say that when the second edition came out, there were already photographs and biographical materials, that is, that during his lifetime, Bergman did not allow Bergman to do in this book. When he was gone, you can do almost everything.

- Nathan, The Fifth Act is the last act of classical drama, right?

This collection included four works that are dedicated to the theater and cinema, that is, those eternal companions who accompanied Bergman all his life

Nathan Gorelik: Yes. But it may be the impression that we gave the name to this book. In fact, Bergman himself called the book the book by the Fifth Act. In fact, this is one of the few, and maybe his only book, which is not just a collection of scripts made by the publishing house or editors, or his family life and narrative. This collection of dramatic works was compiled by Bergman himself, and Bergman himself gave the name to the book. This collection included four works that are dedicated to the theater and cinema, that is, those eternal companions who accompanied Bergman all his life. And in this sense, this book, as it seemed to us, now, after the departure of the great master, is of particular interest. This is a kind of creative testament of the director, writer, as it seems to me.

- After all, the book also has an audio application. Natasha talked about the pirate productions of Bergman’s plays in Russia, but your book complements the legal performance.

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: The book complements the audio recording of Sergey Yursky , who called this record and the book "Our Poole of the Genius". He uttered this phrase several times. But the production of those years in the Moscow Art Theater was legal, because Bergman first gave such permission to the theater. When, for example, the “Seans” magazine was made, Andrei Plakhov and Lyuba Arkus came here and wanted him to at least sign for this special Bergmanovsky, not only wrote a few words, but at least put his signature, gave permission on the first page to demonstrate it, but he refused them. And he not only allowed this performance to put in the Moscow Art Theater, but when I flew to Moscow to the premiere, he handed over his congratulations with me to the theater and his parting words and wish.

- Did Sergey Yursy record this disc?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: The disk for the book was recorded by Jurassic and his family. This is a little even symbolic, because the book is also our family product, and the Yursky family made the performance "after rehearsal." And what is recorded on this disk is their performance. This is a converted performance, the one that went to the Moscow Art Theater, but as if for radio.

- After all, Bergman has many students of famous, followers - Bill August, Liv Ulman. I would like to talk about the heirs of Bergman, about his troupe, his actors, about their achievements of recent years, what do they do?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: For example, Marie Bonevi was now in the jury of the Film Festival in Karlovy Vary. To say that he has so many followers or students, it seems to me that this is some stretch. But, of course, the actors, many of whom are still alive, did their best work with him. Some of them, say, Liv Ulman , began to engage in directing. I don’t know if it is possible to say that these are his students in the literal sense. How does Natan believe?

Nathan Gorelik: There may be no such obvious students or followers in directing, well, except for Liv Ulman and August, who accepted or accepted the methods, approaches to cinema, the film review of Bergman. But the actors, those who call Bergman’s actors, continue to work and most of them continue to play on the drama stage, continue to work with Alsted Stroke , and Pernilla August and Lena Andre . In recent years, they have very interesting works. I think that joint work with Bergman left a great mark not only in their biographies, but also gave a peculiar impetus to continue their life in the theater and in the cinema.

- Natasha, you have already begun a story about the Bergmanovsky festival, which was recently. What were the most remarkable productions?

Thanks to the name Bergman, the first time arose to make Sweden a serious international theater festival

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: “whisper and screams” were delivered from the Bergman’s works - this is the Tunnel Theater from Amsterdam, and “From the Life of Puppets” - it was the Hamburg Theater. You know, although this festival was called Bergmanovsky, and it was said that it was made under the sign of the spiritual heritage of Bergman, in fact I had the feeling that it was made, rather, under the sign of the spiritual heritage of the main director of this theater Holm. He just leaves the theater and chose a large number of works to his liking. Thanks to the name Bergman, the first time arose in Sweden a serious international theater festival, because, oddly enough, there was still no such festival. And I think that the idea of the creators, on the one hand, of course, to do this very at a high professional level, and it was at a high professional level. And it was important to call this festival the name of Bergman. On the other hand, this is the idea of an international festival in Sweden, to which it will be possible to invite interesting theaters from abroad. So far, there are economic opportunities to hold this festival again, and there is a hope that it will continue. It was quite interesting, but directly to Bergman or the tastes of Bergman, in my opinion, this festival had nothing to do.

- Natasha, because there were disputes about Bergman’s material inheritance, I saw this in the newspapers, about the fate of his papers, his archive, his house on the island of Forer. How was the situation resolved there?

Natalya Kazimirovskaya: In my opinion, she was not resolved, but I think that Nathan could tell more, because he was Bergmann last year, it was on this island, where it was still played out of fresh traces, and I can only say that, apparently, serious skirmishes, not only related to the house. For example, there was a very funny situation when the Baltic House theater festival in St. Petersburg wanted to award the Bergmann of the Baltic Star Prize, which was once awarded to Andgea Weida and many other very interesting people. And so they wanted to do this last year, but the children of Bergman did not agree among themselves who would come to receive this prize, because at first one son agreed, then he refused and, apparently, no one knew who this money has the right to take on this money.

- Nathan, what is happening with the house on the island of the Forer and is there any hope that someday there will appear a museum of Bregman?

Nathan Gorelik: Firstly, with regard to the literary, diary, documentary heritage of Bergman, there is no problem here. In his life, he transferred most of his archive to the Stockholm film Institute. Now, after the death of Bergman, a special fund has been created, which is called the “Ingmara Bregman Foundation”, which owns all the documents, all the archive transferred by Bergman and his family to this fund and, I must say that the Swedish state has found quite significant means to support this fund, which allowed us to put in order and continue to work with all a very large and interesting archive. Now digitalization of the entire archive is carried out, this is also a very large and expensive job. Again, the Sweden government allocated funds for the holding of this international theater festival named after Bergman.

The only problem that continues to bother the Swedish theatrical and movie circles is Bergman's house. Soon after the death of Bergman, an initiative arose to create a museum on the site of this house on the island of Forer, and, secondly, the house of creativity, which could come to young authors, scriptwriters, filmmakers and work on their works. But Bergman bequeathed this house to his children, he ordered it to sell it at the highest price, and the amount handed should be divided between all heirs. And the children fulfill the will of the father, they sell this house. Now he is given for sale to a well-known auction, in my opinion, "Christie", and, of course, the amounts that can appear in this auction, the public of Sweden cannot yet be collected. And to find private sponsors that could buy this house and transfer it for such noble creative goals, has not yet been found. A special initiative group was created, a commission headed by former Prime Minister of Sweden Ingmar Karlson , who is now involved in this problem. The last action held by this initiative group - they published their appeal to American filmmakers in the newspaper, in the printed body of Hollywood, in which they are just asking them to participate in solving this problem. This is the case today.

- I hope that this house will acquire a philanthropist and create a director of the director in it, and I want to, in conclusion of a conversation, draw the attention of listeners and readers to the new website of the Moscow Museum of Cinema . The work of Ingmar Bergman “every film is the last” was published there.

This is an interview - a fragment of the program of Dmitry Volchek "on top of the barriers." You can listen to it here .