Ovchinsky vs Gudkov

Why are they exploding and why the state does not protect

The terrorist attack in Domodedovo showed: how the state was not able to protect us in 2002 (Nord-Ost), 2004 (Beslan), 2010 (explosions in the Moscow metro), and cannot protect. Why? The deputy of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, the FSB Colonel in the reserve Gennady Gudkov and the Major General of the Police, Vladimir Ovchinsky, Alexander Bastrykin, reported this to the New Times. Do you think, really disclosed? Gennady Gudkov: the main mechanisms, springs, participants are disclosed.

Was there really information that the explosions are being prepared? Gudkov: as far as I know, it was very common. Detailed, specific information that would say that such and such have gone there with such an intention, plan to blow up this in such and such a period-there was no such information.

Vladimir Ovchinsky: I am categorically disagreeable. Because on December 31 at 8 pm in the Kuzminsky park there was an explosion. The FSB operational group, the operational group of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, went there. They found the remains of the suicide bomber, found the hobby belts, an blended building. It was clear that some group broke into Moscow. If one group broke through, others could break through. All of Moscow should have been blocked for an hour, operatives were sent, the inspection mode was introduced. The fact that this was not done by the National Anti -Terrorism Committee (NAC), the FSB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs is criminal negligence. For this it is necessary to be prosecuted.

Right. The trouble is in one thing: for this, you must constantly keep the entire system in a state of increased combat readiness.

What are they missing, there is not enough money? Not only money. The system cannot work at the limit of vigilance all the time.

The former head of the Israeli security service Yaakov would not agree with you: exactly they work. In fact, it is impossible to keep a wide response network in a state of constant combat readiness. She will fail. Another thing is that agent units, search groups that are not just looking for a wide capture, but go along specific wakes. As for the patrols in the subway, on the streets, stations, they will not work all the time in vigilance. A person gets used to even the threat of death.

Ovchinsky: I do not agree again. Why is the regime of increased danger in the same Israel? Why is there a special group that is constantly imprisoned to an instant reaction? They are a warring country, but we are also a warring country. We have the intensity of terrorism is now several times higher than in Israel. Why do not the NAC and the valiant FSB create such operational groups and do not maintain constant mobilization readiness?

This is a dead end.

Ovchinsky: This is the only way to survive.

I do not agree. In Israel, increased security measures are realized at a certain moment, when a critical level of danger arises. We have a critical level of danger constantly. In early December, I went to the Caucasus for three days. During these three days, two orientations left, and as a result, one of the suicide bombers was removed at the Paveletsky station from the train. She arrived here. That is, the level of danger is such that it is necessary to keep the entire response system in constant stress. And this is impossible. The methods of forceful suppression of terrorism are exhausted, now completely different mechanisms should work. Well, we will visit each other through the frames, stop the metro, will we go to trolleybuses along the lie detector?

Not only not exhausted, we did not have and not. Before the explosion, Domodedovo Airport was a passage yard. There were no special operational groups, was reduced and brought out for the state of police. The local security service said that she was not responsible for order. This happened not only in Domodedovo, but also at other airports. For commercial considerations, from schizophrenic decisions made by the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs to reduce transport police. Not the FSB is the main backbone of security and protection against terrorism, but the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And there, during the so -called reform, the entire security system was destroyed. The unit for combating organized crime and terrorism was liquidated, as a result, dozens of operational accounting were destroyed, the best employees were dispersed. The prosecutor of the Krasnodar Territory recently acts according to the results of 2010 and says that during the elimination of the regional nurery, a thousand cases of operational accounting for gangs and terrorist groups were destroyed. What is it? The transport department, twenty linear departments, chaos and complete disorganization throughout the system were destroyed. The Department of Protection of Regime objects and closed cities was destroyed. The leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs should be personally responsible and should resign entirely.

Almost for the first time in the history of terrorist attacks, starting from Beslan and Nord-Ost, nevertheless, some FSB generals were fired. What if?
In the FSB, two deputy heads of the Office T, to combat terrorism, were resigned for not transmitting information on time and did not provide mobilization readiness after the explosion on December 31.

But this is not a counterintelligence on transport? In transport, Andrei Alekseev was removed for nothing, he was recently appointed to this position, one of the best employees of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. This person is a professional, he worked all his life in a railway police. They just made the switchman out of it.

I agree that Alekseev is the switchman. But let's see the structure of the linear department of the Internal Affairs Directorate in Domodedovo. 350 people, not small. 230 people work in the so -called sterile zone. And only 120 control the so -called common zone. Who prevents the reversal of employees? The destruction of operational cases is just a crime. But let's speak frankly - our number is redundant. In Russia, before the reform for 100 people, there was one police officer. This is a lot. In the USA - one policeman for 550 people. In Europe, about one by 800. This suggests that we are ineffectively working. Low level of professionalism, high level of corruption, bureaucratization of the department itself, a huge number of auxiliary, additional and other providing units. The question is not only that the reduction is carried out unreasonably: the entire state apparatus is bureaucratic. The bureaucracy retains itself, and sacrifices those who work on Earth, in the field, as they say. If you just change the same surnames in the power to others, then the main result of such a change will be a change in the list of millionaires in Forbes magazine. It is necessary to change the principle of organizing power. It is uncontrolled in our country, not divided, all concentrated in executive structures, irremovable, etc. Therefore, we have what we have. Until the people say their word, everything will be so.

Law enforcement businesses of the United States of a policeman is not visible on the street until you need it. And in Europe. Whereas ours are around and everywhere. Everyone knows that law enforcement agencies are engaged in law enforcement agencies. Not exclusively, but a lot. 50-60%.

This was known ten years ago. Of course, although ten years ago was much less. Corruption is growing. The very mechanism of power is such that it gives rise to mass corruption. And therefore, even if the FSB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs worked perfectly, they still could not cope.

What is the guarantee that the Domodedovsky terrorist attack is really disclosed if you cannot control either the work of the Investigative Committee or the work of the FSB? Based on the materials of operational work, the professional immediately sees where the bullshit is. What Bastrykin showed convinced me that a specific terrorist attack was disclosed. But this does not mean that all the terrorist underground was revealed. How the group worked, from where they brought, where they met, how they passed on each other, who accompanied whom - everything is already known.

Was explosives from the Caucasus? Yes. It was plastic. 3.5 kg of total. Hiding is easy.

How did you get? On buses.

Look, there are a bus for a bus from the North Caucasus. Neither inspections, nor verification of documents - nothing. You can carry a ton of explosives.

Gudkov: You can buy it here too. In conditions of total corruption, there is no need to talk about the reliability of barriers. Here is the metro. Well, it is nonsense that the metro can be controlled, especially at the peak hour. On each frame, on each scanner you need to put a person, and not one more. You can carry out selective control, you can instruct the cameras everywhere, which will then facilitate the search for criminals. And to prevent a terrorist attack when the terrorist has already reached the finish line is a very great luck. Maybe 20-30%, and 70% against.

You can’t check the cook. But when a potential terrorist knows that they can check it, then he will think about how to carry it. And if he drove a bus ten times and saw that no one checked the documents, and went to the airport ten times - then he will be with explosives. We do not even have a psychological barrier. Now, after Domodedovo, they are trying to restore it, but they did not even do this after the explosion in the subway in March last year!

The colonel, who has been engaged in intelligence work all his life, said literally the following: “The agents in Dagestan is zero. We do not control anything. ”Everything depends on the personality who is doing this, on the organization of work. This is already a question for the leadership of the country, if they cannot choose adequate people there, although there are such people. There are honest operatives, there are honest investigators.

Recently, police general Alexander Bokov was arrested. He is charged with a bribe of $ 45 million. It is clear that he had to share with those who are lower and with those who are higher. Where does non -corrupted come from, who will risk their lives on the “earth”, if you can earn such money on raiding? The point is not that people are bad, but that the system is such. She cripples people, forms criminal intentions, makes it possible to carry out them. Therefore, I say that terrorism in Russia is a political problem. To wait for the total corrupt state to be honest FSB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs is a utopia. Today, terrorism is no longer the problem of the organization. We have a NAC, and the Security Council, and the doctrine, and what is not. The question is that the system does not work. This means that you need to change power - in December there will be a great opportunity to do it.

You yourself say that the parliament has no tools. It is necessary to change not only deputies. It is necessary to change the government.

Our September 11th
What happened in Domodedovo is ours on September 11. Not by scale, but by what was shown: the security system is rotten. All the time they put on the example of Ramzan Kadyrov that he had order in Chechnya. But in two days - four explosions in the center of Grozny. This means that the system got out of control both in Moscow, and in the regions, in the North Caucasus and Grozny. The anti -terrorism system has collapsed. It must be created again with rigid methods. Neither Medvedev nor Putin has another way out.

No matter how much another date was, on November 7 or March 11, when the monarchy collapsed.

1917 may seem flowers. The entire Middle East, North Africa explodes. In July, the coalition troops will leave Afghanistan. I think that the Taliban will quickly agree with the corrupt regime of Karzai, with his brother, with drugwords. And all the power of hatred can be directed to the Republics of Central Asia. Russia is connected by a collective security agreement, we will begin to help them. And immediately terrorist energy will go to Russia. We will find ourselves in a double ring. Plus, our Volga region burns. In fact, every week one terrorist group has to be eliminated in Bashkiria and Tatarstan, they just do not write about it.

In the late 1990s, there was an idea to build a guarded border in the North Caucasus. This, in particular, was proposed by the former chief of the border troops of the USSR, General Agapov-in the 90s he was vice president of Ingushetia. What do you think about this? It is impossible to do this theoretically or practically. There are hundreds of nationalities in the North Caucasus, there are also Russians, there are many those who do not want terrorism. The wall should not be physical, but professional - with checkpoints, checks, filtering, agent work.

The United States intelligence community is now leaving 17 organizations. They, each, are fighting for one budget, proving their effectiveness to the Special Committee of the US Congress. They control each other - it is known that no civil structure can take a closer look at the secret service - only another secret service. They duplicate in some aspects of each other so as not to leave a gap in the security system. The result is obvious: after the tragedy on September 11, that is, 9 years, not a single terrorist attack was carried out in the United States. We have practically eliminated GRU. In a situation where the FSB is uncontrolled, fought with the executive branch, and the police are extremely corrupt, what is the point of destroying military intelligence and counterintelligence? This is the same crime as the liquidation of units for the fight against organized crime and the protection of regime objects.

Nobody eliminates the GRU. Military counterintelligence will always be, as long as there is an army and there are secrets. As for the internal organization, structure, this must be discussed with experts, veterans, with society.

Gennady Vladimirovich, if the "fair Russia" had a majority in the State Duma, would you resign the head of the FSB General Bortnikov? We would resign, maybe even the entire government.

Vladimir Semenovich, and you would have fired? You see, I generally see that the level of mess and irresponsibility leads to a serious dictatorship, which can be much more rigid than Stalin.

What is the dictatorship with such corruption? They will sell everything! They cannot even establish a dictatorship. There are people who can. But if you return to your question, are there any uncorompted people to the post of Minister of the Interior, Minister of Security? There are such people. Can they choose a team? Maybe I'm sure of that.

And they will not be bought in six months? They will not give any oil industry? No. They have a moral rod. There are always such people.

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