Translated material
"Perestroika cannot be crossed out"
Researchers will still argue a lot that he did as if, in the eighties, how much his decisions, which allowed the Berlin Wall, dividing Europe and the planet to two ready to destroy each other, were inspired by oil prices and shallowing under the cargo of the Soviet military-industrial complex, or he really believed that only free citizens would be able to withdraw free citizens From the impasse, to which his party, the CPSU, brought it out. But the fact is a fact: he ceased the meaningless Afghan war, who crippled the life of an entire generation, he gave the country of freedom, which she almost never knew in his history, and therefore lost so easily. He refused the post of Secretary General of the CPSU Central Committee, who gave him almost uncontrolled power over one sixth of the planet. He resigned the powers of the first president of the USSR, realizing that another decision would lead the country to the civil war, and he himself would force him to give an order to shoot his own people.
March 2 to Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev - 80 years. On the eve of the anniversary, the first and only president of the USSR came to the New Times: those who survived the euphoria and disappointment of perestroika, and those who still swinging in the cradle, and their mothers stood in endless lines behind milk and children's kefir, and those who were born already in another country and in another president took part in this collective interview.
Mikhail Sergeyevich, how do you live in our current time?
Mikhail Gorbachev: Yes, on the diet ... I dropped 500 grams yesterday, but I have to be a kilogram ... I, when I was president, Secretary General, and earlier, when the secretary of the Central Committee worked, my weight was only 3-4 kilograms more than a student. I held it like that. In general, I am a large person, a pre -conscript, at the age of 17, I had a weight of 72 kg 500 g. Because I worked a lot, bread supply. And until the death of Raisa, control was good - she herself followed herself and tormented me. My mother, when we were visiting, was waiting for Saturday, when there was a borsch with meat, and that, and said: “Thank God, otherwise there are one weeds, salads” ... True, I will smell it all the same if I want.
Have you fled to the refrigerator at night?
No, no, I myself wanted this. For forty years, Raisa and I went every day six kilometers, whatever, wherever they were, we went.
And the guards went with you?
And where are they, yes.
That is, never together, always under supervision. You were listened to, probably everywhere?
Everywhere. When I left the post ... Keep in mind that no one shot me - I myself left. I have the last record in my work book: “He was elected president of the USSR ...” - and that’s it. As I was elected, I remain.
So, when I left, the guys on Kosygin, 10, where they lived in the house, pulled entire chains of wires from there. They told me: "Go look: you all asked what it is." And these are all eavesdropping devices. Here, under each bed ...
Everywhere?
Everywhere.
About sugar
On December 16, 1986, you call Andrei Dmitrievich Sakharov in Gorky, where he was in exile. Why did you decide to call him?
I just remembered this here - I finished the book, everything, put the last point. I already put this point six times, but again I wrote seven pages ... So, you remember what time it was: it was worth one engineer to speak at a congress of trade unions, say: “What is Brezhnev-let him come to our congress, say something, we will say something, we are urgently gathered, the Politburo was urgently gathered, to decide how to deal with this engineer ... Brezhnev, in fact, created an atmosphere of non -stop in the country - in such a situation, we began to restructure.
In general, the question arose of Sakharov in the Politburo. I asked me to bring me a dossier on the basis of which it was decided to send it (in Gorky, now Nizhny Novgorod, January 22, 1980. - The New Times). They answered me: "Yes, there is no, in fact, there is no dossier." There was a note of the KGB that he had some kind of contacts that he expressed his thoughts-and he said that democracy needed, that we must overcome the split that occurred between the two worlds, that in the conditions of the existence of nuclear weapons it was extremely dangerous. Note that all this was said by an academician who created a hydrogen bomb and realized that his conscience was responsible for this. For this, he was sent according to a soft, so to speak, scheme, to live in Gorky.
I am in the Politburo and say: "Well, you know, we must fix it immediately." First, I think who to instruct to talk? Was Marchuk - president of the USSR Academy of Sciences - him? But he decided: “You know,” I say to the Politburo, “we brewed this porridge here, we will get out: let's put a phone with him, I’ll talk to him and say about our opinion so that he will return home to Moscow, to work.” They put the phone, I call him. They greeted, only two words said, and he, afraid that I would turn off now: “Mikhail Sergeyevich, I ask you to release all the prisoners of conscience ...” I: “Andrey Dmitrievich, well, let me tell you why I call you. (Laughs.) I want to tell you that the Politburo made a decision - return to Moscow. You have an apartment, it is yours, you have a place of work - at the Academy, ”he was a member of the presidium. All. And he returned. Then, relations developed with him, we were friends, frankly ... I remember, after that congress ...
On which the “aggressive-auditory majority”, in the words of Yuri Afanasyev, prevented Sakharov?
Well, yes, the theaters were unhappy then, complained that people did not go, everyone watched the congress ... So, after the congress meeting, I was preparing for tomorrow, I went out at 11 pm, they say to me: “They are waiting for you here, Mikhail Sergeyevich.” And I asked that when I was sitting there, I was getting ready, nobody! I say: “Listen, but you must think! This is Sakharov ... ”In short, I am to him:“ Andrey Dmitrievich, why did you come, why are you waiting, why are you sitting? We would come to me. " “Well, yes, but the comrades told me, and that’s it, I'm sitting.” I ask him: “Well, what about your impressions about the congress? In my opinion, it turns out, the congress is gaining strength, ”I am to him. He: “Yes, yes. But you know ... I’m afraid that work is being done in order to get rid of you ... They say that when you were at the Stavropolce *** ms. Gorbachev was the first secretary of the Stavropol city committee, and then the regional committee of the CPSU in 1966-1978, you were connected with criminal groups, and that you appear there in business, and so on. But you probably already know about it ... "
Did Medunov mean? * * Sergey Medunov - the first secretary of the Krasnodar regional committee of the CPSU since 1972, in 1983 was removed from work for numerous facts of corruption. During the investigation, more than 5 thousand officials were dismissed and excluded from the CPSU, 1,500 people were placed the court
Well, what are you, Medunov - this ... It was high, tall comrades ... Kushchevka was born in the right place. (Laughs.)
Where was the roof?
Well, in general, in the Politburo ... Leonid Ilyich ...
Personally? *
Personally.
In short, I say to Sakharov: “Do not worry, go to bed ...” And the fact that the group wanted to take me off is I knew. Yes, and Andrei Dmitrievich was like this: “I am for Gorbachev, but not unconditionally. If he does this and this, then I will be for Gorbachev. ” I think that if he, Sakharov, remained alive, then such a porridge would not have been brewing in this group (MDG is an interregional deputy group) ... And as soon as they made a bet on Boris Nikolayevich (Yeltsin), well, this is a tractor, taran, they decided to act through it so that they could break through the intellectuals ... well, yes, then this group, and then he is also a group. “Democratic Russia” simply pushed back as unnecessary ...
I have the last record in my work book: “He was elected president of the USSR ...” - and that’s it. As I was elected, I remain
" About the First President of Russia
You do not like Yeltsin.
How can you love it? Why should we talk about love? I loved my wife, and it is still important to me. And what about Boris Nikolaevich? After all, I took it. Nikolai Ivanovich (Ryzhkov) *** N.I. Ryzhkov-Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR from 1985 to December 1990 said: "Do not take it, you will get grief." But I supported him, defended him in Moscow. And he began everywhere to look for those who bother him: and Ligachev especially prevents him from working, and indeed - the old people in the Politburo do not support him. He sent me a letter in Sochi, I was on vacation. I called him, said: "Do not twitch, do not fuss, I will come - we will figure it out." I did not obey.
Is it true that you Boris Nemtsov, after he served 15 days in prison, called and said: “Boris, are you right, no matter how difficult it is for me to utter these words”? * * Gorbachev is attributed to the phrase addressed to Yeltsin “Boris, you are wrong”, which the member of the Politburo Egor Ligachev actually said on June 28, 1988 at the 19th party conference, where Yeltsin criticized the CPSU.
Well, do not exaggerate ... I after I read his interview with Echo of Moscow, told him: "Well done, all that you said, I support."
And when you spoke with Nemtsov, you probably understood that the Chekist "ears" were sitting on the phone?
So what? I know what they listen to. Well this is good - everything goes immediately, without delay. (Laughs.) 
About the roots
On the Internet they write that your grandfather’s arrest in the 37th and his story about how he was tortured, I quote: “They bowed you to rejection of the Soviet regime.” Is that so?
Oh, Lord: I am a product of the system. I am from the 10th grade in the party. After the university, I stayed in the regional prosecutor’s office for seven days on the internship, and I was taken to the Komsomol, for ideological work. He grown up to the first secretary of the regional committee of the Komsomol, then, under Khrushchev, was a rural party organizer. And then he became the secretary of the city party committee.
Grandfather was actually the main brake that I objectively understood what was really. I understand this now that my grandfather was mistaken, but then? The grandfather of the peasants, from the poor, returned from the First World War and was charged with this - heresy. That communes created under his leadership, and they, of course, fell apart, then the toes **** of the partnership of land cultivation., This was already successful. He created the first collective farm and headed it, the chairman was the collective farm "Khlebobor". Doros - headed by Raiso, district land department. This is the largest mechanism in the control system then. And in the 37th year he was arrested for no reason ... Our house is quarantine, well, in the sense that no one went to us during the day. At night, only the neighbors somehow helped. The enemy, the house of the enemy of the people ... 14 months he was in prison not convicted. Tortured - to admit that he is one of the creators, the head of the Trotskyist organization. Grandfather did not admit anything. Now I have a document of the house - a copy of the whole thing, and there is all interrogations ... He behaved amazingly: they blinded it with light, and his hands broke the doors, and a lot of things ... his grandfather returned after 14 months. At our great table, all relatives gathered, he told how everything was. Roared - as it should be in the village ... He once told - and that’s it: he never returned to this. He always said: "Soviet power is our power, it gave us land." And he said about Stalin that Stalin did not know anything that it was our locals tortured him, they almost drove him into the grave. But I realized that my grandfather was mistaken. "
I am a product of the system. I am from the 10th grade in the party. After the university I was taken to ideological work
" And when did you understand?
Then not. When I entered the party in the 52nd year, my father and everyone tried to find out what happened to my grandfather. So my father wrote to me: "I entered (into the party) at the front, and we did not deal with such trifles." In the sense that it was not up to grandfather’s torture - it was necessary to go on the attack.
And even Khrushchev’s speech at the XX Congress of the Party “On the Cult of the Personality of Stalin” did not convince you?
After the XX Congress, I went on behalf of the regional party committee, I’ve been engaged in an ideology for a year, to clarify. He returned home, and Raisa and I agreed that she would give birth.
In honor of the XX Party Congress?
Well, yes, in honor of the fact that some freedom begins ... Irina was born 9 months after my return. So the result of the defeat of the personality cult was obvious ...
That is, you seriously with Raisa Maksimovna discussed what became safer to have children?
No, of course! It was still not enough for us to lose time for these discussions. (Laughs.)
About errors
You are a lot of both then and now scolding for the company to combat alcoholism, they remember how they stood in lines for vodka for hours, how they cut down the vine in Georgia, how the coupons were given ...
There are so many lies on this subject. In fact, it still began under Brezhnev. I am Gromyko * * A.A. Gromyko, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR from 1957 to 1985, member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU, until September 1988, said: once they were traveling from Zavidov, from the Brezhnev residence, and Gromyko said: “Listen, Leonid, and Leonid behind the wheel, it’s hard with us. Society literally dies in this booze. Something needs to be done ... ”Brezhnev was silent for about 10 minutes, then he said:“ Well, so what? I’ll tell you, Andrey, a Russian man cannot without vodka. ” Such was a “wise” answer. Which meant - to agree that let the people die. You know that, according to WHO, if the country produces 17-18 liters of alcohol per soul, then it destroys itself? We just approached this line now. So the solutions were right then. The trouble is that at the stage of execution, everything falls through with us, and then and now. You will remember what was happening in stores then ... The queues are our heroic heritage ... This is not a joke, but in fact a commission was created in the Politburo to solve such a problem as tights for women. And she was headed by Ivan Vasilievich Kapitonov, secretary for organizational affairs. "
It is easier to admit if he gave the team, he was mistaken and so on. But when you are the president, and behind your back your environment does this - this is the most serious
“ We now recall the last year of the USSR and, of course, the bloody events in Vilnius and Riga * * * see. The New Times No. 1 of January 17, 2011 , after which many democrats turned away from you, and“ Moscow News ”came out with the editorial of a“ crime of a regime that did not want to leave the stage. Baltic states, a union from spreading?
Then, generally speaking, I proceeded only from this position that we must preserve the union. But - within the framework of the Constitution. I was offered to introduce a presidential rule in Lithuania. I did not go to it. And I took the issue of Lithuania for a meeting of the Federation Council, and we agreed that people should be sent there. Three members of the State Council flew, spent the night in Minsk on the way - to drink and relax, take his soul. While they drank there, at night everything happened * * * On the night of January 12 to January 13, 1991, 14 civilians were killed in clashes with the military, 144 were injured. An automatic bullet was also killed by a special forces from Pskov.
* Kryuchkov at that time-the chairman of the KGB of the USSR, in August 1991-a member of the State Emergency Committee .. I found out the next morning. I call Kryuchkov * : "What happened, what kind of shooting, where?" “This is all the head of the garrison.” - "What the head of the garrison, what kind of colonel is there?" - "Well, this is how it happened ..."
I alpha (KGB special forces “A”, which went down in history as the Alpha group. - The New Times) presented a book that describes how all this was prepared. There is a notebook, everything is written by hand, forces how to arrange. This was all prepared behind. Do you understand when they say: "Do you have no courage to admit that you gave the team?" I will tell you: it’s easier to admit if I gave the team, I made a mistake and so on. But when you are the president, and behind your back your environment does this-this is really difficult, it is the most dramatic and the most serious.
When did this confrontation between you and your immediate environment began?
In the 89th year, the entire right wing was defeated-everywhere, starting from the Politburo. I remember that after the elections (to the congress of People's Deputies of the USSR in March 1989. - The New Times) I could hardly hold a meeting of the Politburo. Usually how? The general secretary said: they sit quickly - but I could not reassure them. I say: “What are you worried about? You see what support for perestroika. 84 percent of the selected were the Communists. This was not the case, even when we planned and imposed. ” 84 percent! The exclamation was, I don’t remember who said: “Well, what are the communists ...” after that, the nomenclature began to organize. 35 secretaries were defeated, and they did not agree with this. Who was born in the 90th year? In the 90th year, at the XXVIII Congress, the party wanted to get rid of Gorbachev, it did not work, so they came to August 91st.
It turns out that the Minister of Defense did not obey you, the KGB chairman worked against you, the chairman of the Supreme Council of Lukyanov, too. Have you had your own people at the top of the KGB? Have you been informed that a coup, a military coup are being prepared against you?
No, from the KGB - no. And none of them.
Where were your supporters then?
Everywhere. And I still received information from party circles. They went to assistants and told everything. But I must honestly admit: I was arrogant. It was necessary to say goodbye to people with a number of people. Before leaving for Foros, on vacation, in the month of August, I, I, Yeltsin and Nazarbayev - agreed that it would be necessary to discuss the issue of personnel - to get rid of Kryuchkov, from Jazov and several people were called personally. But we were connected, they listened to us. And there is a film with a record. I'm late.
Самая большая ваша ошибка? О чем вы сейчас себе говорите: «Вот этого никак нельзя было делать…» „
Тяжело я переживал, и до сих пор тяжело переживаю... Столько было сделано, и все осталось вот так, не доведенным до конца…
” Я думаю, что вот когда весной 90-го года разразилась схватка на Политбюро по поводу финансов, мне надо было твердую занять позицию. Можно было 10–15 миллиардов взять с военных статей, можно было… Короче, это была моя ошибка.
О времени
И все-таки вы не ответили на вопрос: как вам живется в сегодняшнем времени? У вас нет ощущения, что сегодня дело вашей жизни — перестройка — во многом перечеркнуто. Те, кто устраивал тогда переворот, или, точнее, их младшие товарищи сегодня у руля и при собственности.
Нет, перестройку нельзя перечеркнуть. Потому что перестройка — это не программа, не идея какая-то, которая родилась на печи. Перестройка родилась, потому что дальше жить было нельзя — как мы жили. «Требуем перемен» — это Цой гремел своим голосом, но и с ним — вся страна. 
В первый срок президентства Путина вы заявляли, что поддерживаете его политику. Что для вас стало переломным моментом, когда вы поняли, что не то что-то происходит — разгром НТВ? «Дело ЮКОСа»? Отмена выборов?
Нет, это не было так, что я вдруг осознал — я и до этого ему (Путину) свои замечания высказывал. Например, когда приняли решение не назначать, а избирать губернаторов. Я говорил: что вам мешает, можно прописать, дать такие права президенту — в Конституции или в специальном положении о выборах, которые позволяют президенту избавляться от прохвостов. Но нельзя, говорил я, отбирать у людей то, что им только что дали, — право выбирать.
И что Путин вам отвечал?
«Да нет, прохвосты вот пробираются, они там скупают голоса, подкупают и так далее. И поэтому нам надо избавиться…» Его беспокойство можно понять, но он ошибался, и я думаю, до сих пор… И Дмитрий Анатольевич такого же мнения теперь.
А вы когда последний раз с нынешним президентом встречались?
А я вообще встречался с ним всего один раз.
И он вам не звонил с тех пор?
No. И я ему не звоню. Но я пишу статьи, даю интервью, ему мое мнение известно.
А с Путиным?
С Путиным в первый период его работы мы встречались, разговаривали много. Я его поддерживал всячески, закрывая глаза на то, что стабилизация достигалась странными вещами, и она, конечно, не гармонировала с перестроечными взглядами. Вместо привлечения людей — вертикаль, ставка на то, что надо твердой рукой все поставить на место. Но я считал, что государство было на грани распада, что, может быть, в этот момент надо было пойти даже на некоторые авторитарные методы. Но то, что сейчас происходит… Это уже никуда. Коррупция и беспредел — это самые главные беды.
Ваша позиция по делу Ходорковского?
Если он не убивал людей, то я бы пересмотрел это дело. 
Последний аккорд
25 декабря 1991 года — вы поставили свою подпись на вашем знаменитом заявлении об отставке. О чем вы думали тогда — о том, что вас ждет? О том, что может повернуться по-разному, в том числе арест, тюрьма, эмиграция?
Нет, об этом я не думал. Тяжело я переживал, и до сих пор тяжело переживаю… Столько было сделано, и все осталось вот так, не доведенным до конца…