Special correspondent of Kommersant Publishing House Anna Narinskaya, who recently took up arms against the Unified State Exam appeal system (see the article “Anti-human factor” in No. 24 of June 20), discussed various factors of the unified state exam with one of its progenitors - the rector of the Higher School of Economics Yaroslav Kuzminov.

In addition to the fact that he is the rector of the Higher School of Economics, the developer of the 2020 strategy and many others, Yaroslav Kuzminov is the chairman of the commission of the Public Chamber of the Russian Federation for the development of education. Recently, the Chamber addressed the President of Russia with proposals for “improving the conduct of the unified state exam.” There, among other things, there is a clause about “objective conduct of the appeal procedure,” where, again, among other things, it is proposed to “introduce a ban on lowering exam results as a result of an appeal.” This recommendation was introduced there following the publication “The Anti-Human Factor”, in which I talked about this absurd and humiliating rule for applicants*.

So I went to the meeting with Yaroslav Kuzminov with a feeling, if not gratitude, then at least of relative reconciliation. But for many, especially those who consider the Unified State Exam to be a vicious system in principle, Yaroslav Kuzminov evokes rather angry feelings. He is called not only the author, but also the eminence grise of the Unified State Exam; they believe that, having practiced a little on his applicants (in the late 90s, HSE switched to a system of exclusively written exams, which became the “prototype of the Unified State Exam”), he decided to apply the successful the experience of your elite university to the entire country, without taking into account the diverse characteristics of this country.

Some features, however, were taken into account, as it turns out. The part of the Unified State Exam under the letter C - complicated or, as they also say, creative - is a unique domestic know-how, this simply does not exist anywhere else. According to Kuzminov, it was introduced in response to downright universal accusations of “selling our national dignity”, that they are trying to replace “our traditional” personal approach to science with standard answers to test questions.

“We believe that in the near future it is necessary to switch to a two-level Unified State Exam”

The “unique” part C currently causes the most criticism: complete subjectivity reigns there (to combat which, we note, the Unified State Exam was partly created), the “scoring” system is not clear to anyone, there are no reviews of the answers, which are essentially small essays (as was done in Soviet times when checking entrance essays), no one writes, and the questions themselves, especially in the humanities, often seem like unknown versions of jokes about Stirlitz. How do you respond to all this?

The problem is that in the Unified State Examination we have moved forward from the traditional single exam - the test. We introduced elements of written work, beloved by Russian education, but our methodology for working with a written exam remained the same as with a simple test. And, I admit, it seems to me that a much bigger problem than the subjectivity of testing the complicated part C is that secondary schools have now begun to focus on the first, objective part (A and B) in all subjects and teach only this. With the current weak staffing in schools, the Unified State Exam has become a universal answer for a weak teacher. This year we were happily reported that most of the schoolchildren had started part C. And what part of the schoolchildren completed it? They didn’t have enough time, energy, or breath - because at school they were trained only for the first part of the exam. We believe that in the near future it is necessary to switch to a two-level Unified State Exam. To enter a good university, you will need to take the Unified State Exam at the “upper” level, which will only have this complicated part. And yes, you risk running into bias, but this is the only way you can get the points you need for the best universities. For schoolchildren, this will be a natural profile, and not a formal one, as the current school reform project suggests. And in other subjects you will have to take “simple” exams. That is, at an elementary level you will have to know physics, even if you are a humanist. And then other items will not be lost.

Wait, what does this mean - that grades in non-core subjects will be important for admission? So you are proposing to return to the GPA that existed in the 80s?

I am not ready to formulate my opinion on this issue as final. But I think that there is a very important matter: to restore the weight of the school. Everyone turned their backs on the school. In the largest cities, the share of 10th and 11th graders who went to external studies already reaches a third. And in this regard, we will propose to our respected authorities a number of measures, including introducing - no, not the average certificate score, but, let's say, the school average score - the sum of the final grades for grades 7-11. Not final grades, because a good certificate can also be bought by finding the “right” school in the 11th grade. But it is still doubtful that people will buy all the estimates in five years. And such a necessary component when entering a university would partly compensate for the Unified State Exam purchased somewhere in the south of Russia.

“The Unified State Exam cannot be done by regional education departments”

Is there any way to directly combat phenomena like the 100-point Unified State Examination anywhere in the regions? Do you think this is impossible?

No, of course we need to fight, but I’m not convinced that we will win right away. Although, of course, we would have won sooner if the Unified State Exam had been organized at the federal level first. The Unified State Exam cannot be done by regional education departments, as it is now. This is a federal task. And part C cannot be allowed to be checked in the same subject of the federation where it is written.

This last proposal of yours: to send work for verification to another region raises some doubts. Somehow you don’t believe in the domestic level of computerization and, most importantly, logistics.

It’s not difficult to scan works, send them to any address and check them there in scanned form. It's not worth the time or money. This is a matter of organization.

With which we are just bad.

You know, for it to be good, you just have to pay money. From the very beginning, when the old Ministry of Education, headed by Vladimir Filippov, began to organize a unified exam, I said that it was impossible to build a new public institution for a billion rubles a year - it would collapse. In the end, everything was blamed on the regions. The fact that it did not collapse speaks of its relevance and the conscientiousness of the mass of Russian teachers involved in this process. Because this is completely insufficient money. The consolidated education budget is one and a half trillion. Compared to this, 1.5 billion rubles for the Unified State Exam is one thousandth. It is promiscuity on the part of the state to treat independent testing of knowledge this way. In other countries, the knowledge control system is 2-5% of the budget.

Moreover, just as they once began to save on the Unified State Exam, they save not only money, but also organizational efforts. Do you know, for example, that all our Unified State Exams are regulated by methodological letters of Rosobrnadzor? Do you know what these methodological letters are? These are recommendations. In principle, they can be ignored. And now the Public Chamber’s Unified State Exam hotline receives a lot of calls: “Why does teacher Petya help solve the Unified State Exam?”

Which teacher? Why is the teacher there? There cannot be a teacher of the class who is taking the exams! We checked the regulatory framework - we do not have a law prohibiting this. For some reason, the educational authorities believe that they have banned it. But in reality there is no prohibition, and people cannot be prosecuted for such a violation - there is no reason.

After all, how could short-term problems be solved? Take it and connect the FSB! Let them have these bags of tasks! There’s no way anyone will snatch or smuggle anything there. Why can't this be done in the regions? If you are afraid of cheating, install cameras at collection points! It costs pennies now. And let all these records hang on the website of the Department of Education. And here you just need to tear something away from the chair! Nobody is stopping you! It is very unpleasant that an absolutely correct and necessary tool will simply be destroyed due to the ills of our educational and administrative system.

“Many political forces are trying to engage those segments of the population for whom the Unified State Exam is a sore point”

And in your opinion, is the Unified State Exam in its current “ruined” form a good thing or not?

You know, as one of those who put forward the idea of a unified exam, I treat it with reverence and believe that even in its current form, which is not entirely effective, this is a great benefit. He is restoring social elevators that were almost completely destroyed.

Some of them, it turns out, are crooked social elevators.

Probably, there cannot be completely direct social elevators in our country given our mentality. There will always be someone else's interested intervention. But it’s a fact - to leading universities Moscow and St. Petersburg began to accept 1.5-2 times more nonresident students. And this is correct, because these universities were once built by the entire country. Because the share of talented people per capita in Bryansk is approximately the same as in the capital.

And then let the Bryansk ped die? After all, everyone will begin to enroll in Moscow, especially with the current opportunity to apply to several universities at once.

Why does he have to die? There are 120 state universities in Moscow. And if we talk about those that are in the middle of their imaginary ranking, then, I assure you, similar universities in the provinces will be better. Because in both cases, an associate professor at such a university receives 18 thousand rubles from the state. But in the provinces you can at least live on that kind of money. There are approximately 25 top universities in Moscow. And these should be universities for the entire country. And they have been occupied by Moscow families for the last 20 years. It was these families that suffered from the Unified State Exam—families belonging to the Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Yekaterinburg middle class. Moreover, these are not the richest people, these are people for whom the choice - a good university or a worse one, to pay for education or not - is very difficult. Before the Unified State Exam, they enjoyed obvious advantages when applying for admission. It's hard to give up the advantage you're used to. And note, it is these people that public opinion relies on. Muscovites and St. Petersburg residents have an order of magnitude louder voice than the rest of the country. But we must understand that preserving the country - and in this case we are talking specifically about measures aimed at preserving the country as something whole - requires social sacrifices not only from the richest.

For some reason, this “louder voice” is being heard especially loudly this year.

Well, firstly, judging by sociological surveys, this year the opinion about the Unified State Exam has not changed compared to last year. Here we are more likely dealing with a media campaign related to the elections. Many political forces are trying to engage those segments of the population for whom the Unified State Exam is a sore spot. And besides, I think people have lost some romanticism: they no longer think that the Unified State Exam will automatically work well. They have already taken a closer look and realized that cheating and bribes are possible there too. But information hysteria, I think, is generated by a much more political factor.

“If the state made a mistake in your favor, it still made a decision.”

But still, look at the paradox: the Unified State Examination is, in any case, much easier physically for children and parents than graduation and then entrance exams. But no one feels any gratitude. The Unified State Examination is still perceived as something imposed, as almost a punishment.

Can you name any public institution regarding which there would be positive sentiment in society? For example, a flat tax scale: it was an innovation that seemed to be beneficial to people like you and me. Do we really feel gratitude? In general, people are terribly ungrateful characters. But still, on the forums I see joyful reviews from people who would never have received them under the old system. But you and I have different feelings, because we belong to the category of victims.

Yes, among the reviews to my article there were also those where they wrote that it was I who longed for the time when it was possible to place children in institutions through connections.

When I spoke about advantages, I did not mean anything illegal, only circumstances that were determined by where I lived. But yes, there is also that point that you just mentioned. We feel more comfortable in a situation where we can disobey the law. Even if we ourselves don’t get anything from this opportunity, it’s still nice to have such an option. And the cold iron wall - it’s not clear how to negotiate with it.

But many agree quite well. It is practiced, for example, to sell university olympiads that provide the opportunity for admission.

The Olympics are not the Unified State Exam. The Olympics are an analogue of the old system.

Really? But in your proposals for improving the Unified State Exam there is a clause on expanding the Olympiad system. Despite the fact that the expression “purchase Olympics” has already become completely commonplace.

I can be proud that this is not yet said in relation to our HSE Olympiads, but in general you are right. Discussions are ongoing about the Olympiads of very large and worthy universities. This is sad, because the Olympiad is a necessary addition to the unified exam, simply in terms of methodology. And we propose to lower the Olympiad movement: starting it from the fourth or fifth grade. A diploma that allows you to enter without exams can be obtained if you have shown good results at Olympiads for at least three years. This will still cut off not only the purchased options, but also the situation where the Olympiad is not the self-realization of a student’s talent, but simply a way to enter.

What we are talking about now: the possibility of fraud and, in general, all kinds of dishonesty or corruption - this is just one complaint about the Unified State Exam. But an equally pressing problem is its quality. Here at the editorial office we examined the questions in Part C on literature and history, and many of them leave us in a state of complete bewilderment. Or, for example, the appeal procedure that I wrote about. There you come across amazing, simply human material. We received a letter from Vlast in which a graduate said that during her appeal she was told that “the look of a black-browed savage” was not from Nekrasov (and, accordingly, there was a mistake in her work), “since Nikolai Alekseevich had all the girls truly Russian, but there were no black-browed people in Rus'."

And this can only be dealt with using the old Jew’s method: more tea leaves. You have to pay money. To begin with, those who make CMMs (testing and measuring materials - A.N. ). Then they will be compiled by more qualified specialists.

Another measure is that at least half of the appeal commissions should be university teachers. Now this is not the case in many regions.

And one more thing that we proposed was to create open banks of Unified State Exam tasks. There are 10 thousand questions for each level, it’s impossible to memorize so many. But it will be in the public domain, it will be in the public domain, it will be discussed, and nonsense will disappear from there. And if you keep the information secret by ordering it from your comrades in advance, then real jokes happen.

As for the appeal, we have proposed several solution tools. Firstly, the punitive rule about the possibility of lowering points on appeal must be abolished. Even if the state made a mistake in your favor, it still made a decision. It's like a broken rope on a gallows: you can't execute again.

In addition, we believe it is necessary to create a federal appeals commission. It’s not difficult, essentially you just need to pay normal money to people - let those who know their business sit there.

*On July 20, this proposal, among others, was discussed at a meeting of the presidential commission on improving the conduct of the Unified State Exam. As the meeting participants say, most of what the HSE Rector and his colleagues proposed was approved.

"Take it and involve the FSB! Let them have these bags of tasks lying around"