Chaplin VS Bondarenko

Repentance in exchange for freedom. The Tagan court extended until July 24 the term of detention to the Pussy Riot group to the Pussy Riot group. Why are the hierarchs of the Church so solidarity with the power of secular, who sets and where the line passes between blasphemy and art, what role the Russian Orthodox Church claims to be - this New Times, Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, the founder of the social movement “Russia for all” Viktor Bondarenko and Roman Baghdasarov argued about this.

Irina Yasina: Father Vsevolod, how does the Russian Orthodox Church relate to the fact that the security forces and the judicial system do with these young girls? The first time they performed in the Epiphany Cathedral. And the church did not pay attention to them. But in the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, one minute was enough for their action to be rigidly suppressed. Then a video clip appeared on the network with the song "The Virgin, Putin drive away." And now they are judged by the clip, and not for what they did in the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Moreover, I am deeply sure that if they sang “the Virgin, Putin, Putin,” they would have no problems at all.
Father Vsevolod Chaplin: The problem is not what and when they did. The problem is in their position. They opposed Putin before, but there was no such negative reaction. In the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, the name of God was compared with a swearing word. Unacceptable actions in the temple have been committed. You see, because they talked a lot of things against the Patriarch, and they themselves said against Putin, you know how much. It was the blasphemous action that was committed here. Actions that insult religious feelings are very, very dangerous, because of them blood is pouring in the world now. We know that this is what happens after such incidents as, for example, the burning of the Qur'an. That is why they need to be reacted with all the stiffness. The state of the state, how it reacts, the church is not a consequence and not a court. But everything needs to be done so that such actions are absolutely excluded. There are a number of statements that are completely impossible in certain countries. It is impossible in Germany to glorify Hitler, for example.
Landmarks
Roman Bagdasarov: Notice, the longer Pussy Riot members sit under custody, the more people understand them and support them. Father Vsevolod mentioned some states in which such actions are impossible by definition. And I would even call one such state where attempts on religious feelings are very strictly punished. I am not sure that our state should take in this regard Iran for a landmark. Due to at least our multi -confessionality.
Chaplin: Iran is also a multi -confessional country and a very successful country, more successful than the modern West.
Baghdasarov: In Iran, these tough actions are supported by a certain spiritual authority and a certain continuity of traditions. For example, the Shiite tradition that exists there. If we talk about our country, those people who are strictly opposed to Pussy Riot, in church affairs for the most part are neophytes, and often radicals.
Chaplin: There are a variety of people in the church, but this is part of the church. This is the same part of the church as all others, they have the right to their voice. This is mainly the older generation. And at the same time, these are those people who have already learned to not be afraid to speak. After all, now the church is trying to train. For each bold statement, they arrange public flogging. But we can no longer intimidate us. You can complain to the patriarch, you can scream all sorts of nasty things on the Internet. But people in the church are used to talking on their own. And they build society as they see fit.

Revelation
Zoya Svetova: Does the Church approve that the court extends the arrest of the girls from Pussy Riot? Does the church intend to intercede and call for mercy?
Chaplin: They insist on the correctness of their position, to a position that excludes their repentance. The court and the investigation should work as they work. I do not think that someone should interfere in the course of their work, including the church structure. Now this is what it is important to say. I am convinced that, like other members of my church, the revelation of God was given, and is convinced that the Lord condemns what they did. I am convinced that this sin in this life and in a future life will be punished.
Therefore, forgiveness from the church may take place when forgiveness from God will be. And it involves repentance.
Svetova: How do you know whether the Lord God forgives them or not?
Chaplin: I know. I believe that God revealed it to me.
Bagdasarov: And I, as a believer, can doubt what you know.
Bondarenko: And I, as a believer in God, can doubt that I see in the Pussy Riot action signs of serving Satanism.
Chaplin: I believe that God revealed this to me, like the whole church opened the gospel. He promises an extremely stringent retribution for any sin. Read the naked sermon. There is only one way out - repentance.
Svetova: Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Maria Alekhina wrote letters where they asked for forgiveness from believers. Is this not enough?
Chaplin: There were no words of repentance. The only step, half a step in the right direction was made by Mrs. Alekhina, who quoted Mandelstam, while the quote was selected very well * * “Well, I apologize, but I can’t change at all” .. But even apologizing, she continues to insist on the rightness of her position. This position, it seems to me, should be changed. Mrs. Tolokonnikova wrote an even more interesting text in which the following was said: “If someone feels offended, you need to forgive” * * From a letter to Tolokonnikova Chaplin (April 2012): “I would only be sorry if people and my friends considered the enemies of Orthodoxy” .. In this case, it is very, very important, as it seems to me, the rethinking of what was done. And then the road will open for both dialogue and forgiveness, I hope. Because what is done is, of course, a sin that needs repentance.
Svetova: What will be repented to you?
Chaplin: The action was public, therefore, a change in position should be public.
Yasina: These young women have small children. They themselves are in prison, which rather leads people to bitterly than to repentance. And do not you think that a person does not have to do internal work on himself in prison?
Chaplin: The Lord can encourage them to repentance with different methods. Read ascetic Orthodox literature. For repentance, the Lord sends a person and sorrow, and illness, and war, and hunger, and much more. The Lord acts in different ways.
Svetova: The Lord is really so cruel?
Bondarenko: Firstly, I think that the Lord himself will figure it out, that would be the right position of the church. If the Lord is offended, I think he has the opportunity to punish - here Father Vsevolod said - and in other ways. I am surprised by the discrepancy and a different understanding of the naked sermon. I read it more than once. It says: “Love your enemies, bless the cursing you. Hal up the hated to you. And pray for those who drive you and offend you. ” Where did you see that the Lord calls for punishment? I did not see this.
Vote
Svetova: Father Vsevolod, you said that the Church is "training all the time." Who and for what?
Chaplin: Each statement that concerns the economy, life of society, culture, encounters shouting on the Internet. For example, the World Russian People’s Cathedral spoke about wealth and poverty in Russia and that society should be more fair. In particular, it was proposed to introduce a luxury tax and over -consumption. It was 2007. Immediately many shouted: why is the church climbing into the economy? I believe that the church should talk about everything - both at the level of the Cathedral Church Reason, and at the level of individuals, who, by the way, can differ in positions. On politics, about economics, state of public morality, about culture.
Bagdasarov: Is there a danger of profanity - a church talking about secular problems?
Chaplin: The idea of ​​a silent church is a false idea. This is an idea that was invented by part of the Soviet intelligentsia in order to be able to create a convenient church for itself. Such that would not dispute the mission of the nation teachers unreasonably taken by the intelligentsia, which she tried to try on herself in 1970-1990. Here is such a silent church, invisible, somewhere there hidden under the waters of the lake, like a hail of Kitezh, it was just one of the anti-church ideas born in that system.
Bagdasarov: So the church was always silent.
Chaplin: No, she has never been like that. This quiet and inconspicuous church is anti -church. This is the ghetto to which these people tried to send us.
Baghdasarov: Then you must admit that the history of the Russian Church is the history of anti -church.
Bondarenko: I insist that our church has become part of the punitive system. We have neither law enforcement agencies nor court, but there is a single punitive system used by the rulers of this country. I leafed through the basic law of the state - the Constitution of the Russian Federation. And I want to ask: why does the leader of the Public Organization of the Orthodox Church have more rights in our country than the leader of the Russian Association of homosexuals and lesbians?
Chaplin: Oh, I didn’t say that.
Bondarenko: Or here is the story of Pussy Riot. Thinking people outrages that we, in the sense of our state, go beyond the law and again live on concepts. Today we will judge someone because someone seems to be offended by the Orthodox. Tomorrow they will begin to judge me because I eat beef, since the cow is a sacred animal for the Indians, and suddenly they will have a religious association here, and they will begin to judge me for insulting their beliefs. I think that first of all, you need to appeal to the Constitution. The church violates the principle of freedom of conscience. Article 14 of the Constitution says that we have a secular state * * Art. 14 says: “The Russian Federation is a secular state. No religion can be established as state or mandatory. Religious associations are separated from the state and are equal before the law "..
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Vsevolod Chaplin: I am convinced that I, like other members of my church, gives me the revelation of God, and is convinced that the Lord condemns that Pussy Riot has committed

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Vladimir Bondarenko: The Russian Orthodox Church again begins to intervene in the construction of the state. Remember, you built it for a thousand years, and it fell apart in 1917 in a couple of months

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Excellent constitution
Chaplin: We have no principle of separation of the church from the state. Do you know about this? Let's deal with some myths that have long been refuted, but who are still trying to voice in the public space. Of course, religious organizations, religious communities, believers, including belonging to our church, have exactly the same right to express themselves as LGBT activists. We, the church, have no, sorry, the state repressive apparatus, we cannot force anyone to agree with us. But we can speak out, we must and will do it. The same, of course, will do the LGBT community and anyone else. True, thank God, now laws appear that exclude the propaganda of LGBT among minors, I think this is very correct.
Religious associations are separated from the state. These are managerial structures of religious organizations. What does this principle mean? It is interpreted in the 5th article on the freedom of conscience of religious associations and means that religious associations are not authorities, thank God. And the state does not carry religious functions. Here, this principle, by and large, does not mean anything else. The church as a worldview, religion as a phenomenon cannot be separated from the state in the same way as the people cannot be separated from the state.
Bagdasarov: This is already sophistry. Then Buddhism is not separated from the state.
Chaplin: No. Of course not. Our society is not secular. Part of its secular, and part is religious.
Bagdasarov: You said that the church is not separated from the state. You probably did not mean the state, but society?
Chaplin: The church as a significant part of the people from the state is not separated and cannot be separated.
Bagdasarov: For me, the news is generally that our church is not separated from the state. I always believed that the church cannot be separated from society, because there are different public organizations, including church, religious, and the church is part of our society, it is absolutely sure. Just as part of our society - gays and lesbians. But you claim that our state is no longer secular, right?
Chaplin: It cannot be separated from the worldview, from religion.
Ideals and ideals
Svetova: If the Church and the state are one, then the church cannot criticize power? "

Roman Baghdasarov: Unfortunately, the Russian Orthodox Church mediocre the colossal credit of the trust that she had and could be

“ Chaplin: For Orthodoxy, the symphony of the church, the state and the people is the norm. We are not ashamed of this, we consider it right.
Bondarenko: When Patriarch Alexy *** Alexy I (Simansky) headed the Russian Orthodox Church from 1945 to 1970. He served a prayer service for health, and then for Stalin’s repose, was this unity with the people? I believe that in its essence the Russian Orthodox Church is an anti -people church, it is always on the side of the authorities - always, at all times ... Metropolitan Philip was under Ivan the Terrible, he was not on the side of the authorities, and his Malyuta Skuratov strangled. Everyone else was on the side of the authorities, that's why it is essentially anti -people.
Chaplin: I do not believe that the people and power should always be in contradiction with each other. Here we are faced with the difference in ideals, if you want: you, Victor, represent a western social ideal, which implies an eternal conflict between the branches of power, between the people and the authorities.
Bondarenko: Separation, not a conflict. Independent court, independent investigation. Separation!
Chaplin: multi -party, constant political competition, economic competition. Orthodox public ideal is different: it is the ideal of the unity of the people and power, different folk layers, religious communities.
Svetova: When the people go on the streets, expressing their protest against the authorities on whose side the institute of the church is?
Chaplin: This is a question - how really in this case the national movement takes place, and not the struggle for power by one or more elite groups. The authorities must meet the course by changing the course, as our patriarch Kirill said. But I am for the symphony, I am for the ideal of unity that is characteristic of our historical tradition, our mentality, we would be reflected in all political processes. And in future reforms, which sooner or later, of course, will occur, including in the political sphere. I do not think that the church should become part of state power. There is always a discussion between the church and the authorities. First of all, these discussions relate to the concern of people, not the Moscow party, but the majority of the people, who, by the way, now crave justice, longs for the corrections of many processes that were injured in the 1990s. It longs for more harmoniously arranged interethnic relations, we know - this is a big trouble.
Bondarenko: Do ​​you think that a church is a good doctor for treating such problems?
Chaplin: For the authorities, including ... It is very important that the church speaks on all these topics.
Yasina: You say that people are unhappy. This is true. All hundreds ofires show that the requirements of those whom you call the Moscow party, and the requirements of people in the regions are closed. There are four of them: healthcare, education, normal housing and communal services and justice system. Justice is interpreted very specifically, as a fair court and normal law enforcement agencies. That is, everything is one. Can the Russian Orthodox Church turn to the state and say: “Listen to what people tell you! Because justice, it should be for everyone, for the first persons, and for their deputy prime ministers, and for ordinary people, because justice should be for everyone, and not for the elect, ”and this is absolutely so, and this is a church ideal, as you say. So, the church can appeal to the state with a call to hear fair requirements?
Chaplin: So she constantly talks about it ...
Petra Creation
Yasina: Why don't they listen to you?
Chaplin: They don’t listen yet. Here in order to listen, and the church needs to occupy the most active social position. What is the difference between the church and the political opposition? We put all these topics, we really put for many years, much longer than well -known rallies. But at the same time, the church, although sometimes it is accused of pursuit of power, does not offer itself instead of power. We do not strive to seize political power ... Why do people not believe the leaders of opposition movements? Because they understand that they do all this in order to take power.
Bondarenko: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church believe that she has the right to judge? Why? For many centuries, until Peter I *** Peter I canceled the patriarchal in 1721. It was restored in 1917. The church institution was not separated from the state. The church was power.
Chaplin: And the country lived well, better than Western countries ...
Bondarenko: I haven’t been there, I don’t know this, I only read Peter’s decrees and see how the country lived, that he needed to make decrees that he had to wash once a week, not to wipe his hands on the beard. If we began to have something, then only thanks to Western vaccination, which Peter brought from Holland. We have a subframe, canvas, paints, a telescope, a microscope. None of this was and could not be if Peter did not understand that with the Russian Orthodox Church he could never pull our country out of the Byzantine, pre -Christian, slave -owning system.
And now the Russian Orthodox Church again begins to intervene in the construction of the state. Remember, you built it for a thousand years, and in 1917 it fell apart in a couple of months. Why do you think that now you will succeed in that which has not been then? Excuse me, the project has changed? Have your area changed? Once you already had an “anointed of God on earth” at the head of state, and it collapsed! And now you are again trying to rebuild the same building - according to the same tracing paper, the same methods, in the same place.
Chaplin: The state collapsed in 1917 precisely because the church was torn from the people.
Bondarenko: Why were they torn off?
Chaplin: Because of your Peter. Before him, people were happy, then they became unhappy.
Bondarenko: Have you watched "Flying over the cuckoo nest"? There in a psychiatric hospital, especially after an electric shock, everyone was also happy ... „

Irina Yasina: People want to live in a civilized society. And you, father Vsevolod, drag us back, during the time of Ivan the Terrible

“ Chaplin: The happiness of people is not determined by either money, nor subframes, nor canvases ...
Yasina: There is the concept of “civilization”, and people want to live in a civilized society, and they want to change. By the way, the leaders of our country are calling for what they call modernization. That is, moving forward, to innovation and so on. It turns out that you drag us back, during the time of Ivan the Terrible ...
Chaplin: Whether a modernization that would not agree with the will of the people is needed, this is a huge question. Technical modernization should not be accompanied by a breakdown of popular consciousness. That is why the modernization, which are inorganic for the country, always end in tragedies ... And the tragedies that were under Peter, and soon after it, only confirm this.
Yasina: Father Vsevolod, I have a very simple question. The Russian man does not fasten behind the wheel, he drinks everything that burns, and by drunk jumps into the water in unidentified places. Tens, hundreds, thousands of people die from this. We know the statistics of mortality in Russia. And if you do not change consciousness, do not instill a sense of responsibility - because when you do not fasten behind the wheel, you risk, a fool, not only yourself, you risk your old parents, you risk your young children. After all, this is modernization, this is the breakdown of consciousness.
Chaplin: This is not very good when people do not fasten up and behave irresponsibly, but much worse, when a person shakes all his life only about his own health, about the trouble -free well -fed life and material interests. This is worse than not to fasten.

A loan of mistrust
Baghdasarov: Unfortunately, the Russian Orthodox Church mediocre the colossal credit of the trust that she had and could be. This is the cooperation of the Church and the state, which is insisted by Father Vsevolod, it began with Metropolitan Sergius *** After Metropolitan Tikhon refused to swear allegiance to the Bolsheviks, he was arrested, and Metropolitan Starodorodsky stood at the head of the church. - Remember what it was bought, which stood behind the famous declaration of Metropolitan Sergius of 1927. This declaration stood: those priests who do not agree with Metropolitan Sergius were automatically declared unlimited to the current state power. And state power had every right to repress them.
Svetova: Unfortunately, the Russian Orthodox Church and after the end of the USSR did not repent of cooperation with the authorities, which repressed believers.
Baghdasarov: I agree, there was no repentance, that is, on the scale of the repressions that the Metropolitan Sergius declared, our church did not give an adequate answer. Why didn't she give these answers? Why can't the Russian Orthodox Church repent? Here is the most important question, or rather, the most important answer to the question of why we came to the current situation when the Russian Orthodox Church is more and more losing a credit of trust. Say, the Catholic Church periodically repents in something: either in the Inquisition, then in cooperation with the Nazis. Why can Catholics afford it? Because, I will allow myself this metaphor, the Catholic Church is an adult, with a complex fate, maybe even with a warped fate, maybe even a disabled person, but this is an adult. If we talk about the Russian Church, then this is a teenager, in principle, a teenager who never developed to an adult ... He does not even understand what and why did he happen. And the fault of this is the same symphony of the Church and the authorities that the father Vsevolod Chaplin spoke about here.
Chaplin: The church must maintain certain relations with any power, even with persecutors. The whole history of the Church just testifies to this. With persecutors (early Christians) under the Romans and persecutors, who at one time captured Byzantium and, being Gentiles, exterminated Christians. Relations were maintained with them.
The face of the permitted
Svetova: The conflict of the church with artists began after the exhibition "Caution, religion!" In the Sakharov Museum *** The New Times No. 22 of June 28, 2010. Then the believers considered some exhibits by blasphemy. The organizers of the exhibition were sentenced to fines. Then there was an exhibition “Forbidden Art” - and again the trial of the organizers of the exhibition. Now the case of the Pussy Riot punk band. But where is that line in the relationship between the Church and the artists, for which the Church should not intercede?
Bondarenko: In the late 1990s, I collected icons and very soon came to the conclusion that the church needed a new visual language. Then I had an idea to make an iconostasis in a number, that is, use the possibilities of computer graphics. I called this project "Iconostasis XXI". And the Russian museum, and the historical, and the Tretyakovka were ready to arrange an exhibition of our project. We stopped at the Tretyakov Gallery. They called me and said that it was necessary to settle it with the church. Then it was still, do not forget, soft mode. It was then that we met Father Vsevolod.
The church supported my project on the condition that we will not call it the “iconostasis XXI”. And it was Father Vsevolod that gave him the name: "Deisis/present." We then talked very well with officials from the church. Then, when the anthem of the Soviet Union has already returned, I began doubts. I began to re-read Gogol, Chekhov, Saltykova-Shchedrin and suddenly saw that this millennial hydra, who was holding my country, my people, she had not changed at all ...
Chaplin: So who is to blame for everything ...
Bondarenko: Not you are not Christianity, not Orthodoxy is a metaphysical hydra that constantly mimifies. Then she is pagan, then, if she needs, puts on the crosses, then he puts on sickles and hammers, then gabash shields and a sword. And now the Chekists are standing with candles on the requirements of this hydra. I believe that a divine insight can come to the killer, he can repent, and he needs to be in paradise. But I do not believe that a whole layer of former communists, KGB workers, who pursued yesterday, or even killed Popov, now suddenly became sincerely believers. And now they already pursue those who come to the temple and sings that “Black limousines, gold shoulder straps ...” (Quote from the song Pussy Riot. - The New Times). And so I have now started a new art project.
We do not want to offend anyone, we want to present a certain artistic statement. It will be icons on the board. With halo. The artist who writes these works is a believer girl from the Old Believers, I told her to go into communion with the priest. We write a new trinity. And the artist has already told me several times: "I'm afraid, mother is afraid."
Svetova: Why write a new trinity?
Bagdasarov: precisely because the problem of the relationship of art with religious images that require a new, modern expression arose again. And it is very important that the topic of these relationships is freely discussed. The goal is to say that artists have the right to turn to sacred images.
Svetova: Is the church ready for updating?
Chaplin: In the church, a lot is changing and will change, the same level of social activity, I think that it will change further towards its expansion, and to the side, by the way, a larger multi -voice, you can’t do anything about it. Here I am like a church bureaucrat, in theory, I have to try to build the entire church, public and information flow towards some greater unity, but it is precisely as a bureaucrat with almost 27 years of experience that this is no longer possible. Therefore, a variety of views will be present in the church - from the extreme right to the extreme left. From extremely conservative to extremely liberal.
Svetova: Shortly before Easter, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova asked you to come to her in a pre -trial detention center. Why did you refuse?
Chaplin: A priest who visits the prisoners of this prison came to her, but she refused to talk to him. I am afraid that her request for a visit was not addressed to me as a priest - it was an attempt by a kind of political game.
Svetova: In the Gospel of Matthew, Christ says: “I was in prison and you visited me ...” If the prisoners called Christ, he would have come to their prison. Why didn't you come?
Chaplin: The prison is not an area of ​​my pastoral responsibility.
Yasina: How did the Patriarch react to the letter of the Orthodox believers in which they ask him to pardon the girls from Pussy Riot?
Chaplin: His Holiness Patriarch, who very subtly feels the pulse of the church, heard this pulse ...
Svetova: That is, the Russian Orthodox Church remains in the position of hard punishment?
Chaplin: The Patriarch does not talk about punishment, he says that this is a sin, both God and the Church are expecting repentance ...
The discussion was led by Zoya Svetova and Irina Yasina