Translated material
Why Lukashenko is a dictator, but Putin is not?
And you, dear listeners, we ask the question: why is Lukashenko in the view of the West - a dictator, but Putin is not? He will certainly be allowed to the Olympics in London! What is the difference between them?
Eugene, how do you feel about this event? What was not allowed - right?
Evgeny Dobrenko : What was not allowed is absolutely correct. Yes, in the Olympic Games you need to forgive everyone, come to terms, this is the basis of the Olympic Charter, in general, the basis of the Olympic movement. But do not forget that the leaders of the states arriving at the Olympic Games represent, first of all, their states. Being there and participating in some presentations, etc., they gain some political glasses. Of course, politics does not go anywhere. By the way, do not forget that the Olympic Games are a competition of national teams.
The games have not yet opened, and the scandal has already occurred. Just around the team of North Korea, which was completely removed against the background of the South Korean flag. Scandal. The team left, sorted out. In the end, they appeared. They were removed there as a background of the North Korean flag. Politics is present. She is in place. The whole history of the Olympic Games testifies to this.
Elena Rykovtseva : Let me remind you that the head of the Belarusian state visited the 2008 Summer Olympic Games in Beijing and the 1998 Winter Olympics in Nagano in Japan. Raf, do you think, did not let London correctly?
Raf Shakirov : This is the right of the British.
Elena Rykovtseva : But you can express your attitude towards this?
Raf Shakirov: I would like to pay attention to two aspects. Let us recall that the Olympic Games that originate in ancient Greece, this principle itself has never been respected. This is time. Secondly, already in recent times, we perfectly remember the 1933 Olympics in fascist Germany. Politics has always been present there, and politics will be present.
Another thing is that the British in these specific conditions do not risk anything when they do not invite Comrade Lukashenko. Oil supplies from Comrade Lukashenko do not depend, gas too. Glory to God, he does not pose a military threat, etc. This is a kind of gesture. Another thing is that this gesture must be considered in a political context. Consideration of the Law on Magnitsky’s List and the restriction on the departure of a number of officials from the Russian Federation is a certain targeted policy. If you follow small economic news, you will see that Mr. Timchenko suddenly decided to change his place of residence from Geneva and transfer his company headquarters to Moscow, because it will be convenient there. This is undoubtedly already the result of promotion, and enough, let’s say, serious prospects for the adoption of the Magnitsky law, which, apparently, will replace the Jackson-Venik law, and if it does not change, it will complement it. It is quite obvious that the British are in the fairway of American politicians and will certainly also use these measures. This is a new weapon, let's say that representatives of the Western powers in dialogue with us and with satellite countries will use in the near future.
Elena Rykovtseva : But Lukashenko still has her own story. He was the first target of this new weapon.
Raf Shakirov : He can be proud of.
Evgeny Dobrenko : But I would not call this weapon new. There is nothing new in this. Let's not forget that the amendment itself, which is canceled, was weapons at one time.
Elena Rykovtseva : We are talking about a new round of use of this weapon.
Evgeny Dobrenko : Historically, this is the pressure from the West, if you look at the whole history of the "cold" war, then you will see that these actions from the West forced the Soviet Union to soften the position and make concessions. This pressure led to the discharge.
Elena Rykovtseva : What do we get with Lukashenko and, in general, with the concept of "dictator" in the view of the West. If you have oil, gas, and atomic weapons are even better - you are not a dictator. And if you have nothing of this, you are a dictator, and at the same time it is much easier to manage. What is the difference between Putin’s policy in Russia from Lukashenko’s policy in Belarus?
Evgeny Dobrenko : Firstly, I do not agree with you in fact. For example, North Korean dictators are already just dangerous in three generations. They are called dictators, and they have an atomic bomb. Firstly, not everyone who has an atomic bomb, dictators.
Elena Rykovtseva : I only transfer this scheme to the situation of Russia and Belarus. How do they differ, Putin and Lukashenko, in his position in terms of democracy, freedoms, etc.?
Evgeny Dobrenko : They are different. I suggest us to operate with these concepts "dictator" terminologically. Firstly, let's not forget that the announcer is not some terrible villain who was born yesterday. The dictator and dictatorship is an absolutely legal form of government in ancient Rome. We will find answers only if we approach these things from some positions more or less terminologically clear.
Elena Rykovtseva : Who in the modern world is considered dictators and why? Lukashenko is considered to be?
Evgeny Dobrenko : Yes. There is a well -known list of modern dictators. It begins the North Korean dictator. In this list, in my opinion, 23 names are listed. Lukashenko there is almost the 22nd. So, there are guys more abruptly. Another thing is that in Europe there is no more bitter. But there are a lot of the former Soviet republics - Karimov, Rahmon, the Turkmen president. There are a lot of people there.
Elena Rykovtseva : What unites these modes? Why are they considered dictators today?
Raf Shakirov : In my opinion, this list is conditional. The concept of dictatorship is very diverse.
Elena Rykovtseva : Why is one leader considered a dictator, and the other is not considered in the representation of the civilized Western world?
Raf Shakirov : With all due respect to the queen and to all, Great Britain cannot claim to express the opinion of the entire civilized world.
Elena Rykovtseva : Let there be an EU.
Raf Shakirov : There is no country or even association of countries that would give a mandate like this - you are a dictator, and you are not a dictator.
Evgeny Dobrenko : For this there is "Human Rights Watch" that express these things.
Elena Rykovtseva : Making a rating of dictatorship.
Evgeny Dobrenko : Nobody canceled some fundamental things. We all know from school that there is a transition of quantity to quality. The fact is, no matter how we say that there is a death of democratic institutions and procedures - it occurs to varying degrees.
Raf Shakirov : In certain countries, I would say.
Evgeny Dobrenko : Of course. When they say, arrests after Bolotnaya are 1937. I have been doing Stalinism all my life. This is not 1937.
Raf Shakirov : This is a rhetoric.
Evgeny Dobrenko : This is a matter of degree. In Belarus - she is alone, in Russia she, thank God, is the other.
Raf Shakirov : That's for sure.
Evgeny Dobrenko : In Minsk, we would not sit and did not speak.
Raf Shakirov : In Belarus, there would be no microphones, and the room would be completely different.
Elena Rykovtseva : Why, interestingly, Brezhnev was not considered a dictator, although by all signs the then regime was much more repressive than the current Russian one, there is nothing to compare here. However, in the West he was not called that.
Evgeny Dobrenko : And because the dictator and dictatorship are not the same thing. I will give you an even brighter example. Communist China. Mao Zedong was a dictator. There was a dictatorship in China. The dictatorship exists there today, but there is no dictator. The dictatorship can quite exist without a dictator. By the way, in the entire Soviet history in the Soviet Union there was one dictator - this is Stalin. Khrushchev was not a dictator. Speaking seriously, having discarded such a primitive anti -Soviet, we will be honest: Lenin, who began to build a Soviet dictatorship, was not a dictator. Stalin was. These are very different things in different countries. One size is not suitable for everything. Many things depend on political culture, which itself is the result of the historical development of each nation, etc., etc. This is a whole set of things.
Raf Shakirov : And from the role of personality too. Lenin built the dictatorship of the working class and party.
Elena Rykovtseva : And with Brezhnev?
Raf Shakirov : Brezhnev managed for so long that he experienced a variety of stages. Do not forget that it was during his period of government that the discharge arose. The Helsinki process has gone. Another thing is that the late period was already distinguished by completely different things.
Elena Rykovtseva : But Lukashenko also concludes international treaties in his country, in some way they cooperate there. It cannot be said that there is an iron curtain.
Raf Shakirov : You can’t. There is one of the misconceptions that is widespread in our democratic public, that the leaders of Western countries only sleep and see how to establish a democratic regime everywhere. But they are the same simple pragmatic politicians. And the planting of democratic values is seen only in the context of their own national interests. So they say in England - we do not have permanent allies, we have constant interests. That is why the United States is ready to interact with some dictator of Nariga and not call it a dictator. And the British will act in the same way. They pursue their own interests.
Evgeny Dobrenko : They did this for centuries.
Raf Shakirov : Yes. Therefore, you do not need to think that - ah! - The English teacher came out to the board and called Lukashenko a dictator.
Elena Rykovtseva : The opinion of the English teacher will coincide with a huge number of opinions.
Raf Shakirov : It is necessary to share what purpose public organizations pursue, and what goal the establishment, politicians pursue.
Elena Rykovtseva : But here we were here in the fact that he was still a dictator?
Raf Shakirov : It is completely different. We do not need to put Lukashenko on the shelf, where a volume with dictators. And we need to understand what is happening. In my opinion, the most important part is that Magnitsky’s work turns into politics. And I can’t completely agree that such things were used before. We know that many members of the Politburo have a safely settled in Austria and in many other countries, retained their capital.
Elena Rykovtseva : I don’t remember this tactics - not to let it go to the west.
Evgeny Dobrenko : There was a pressure.
Raf Shakirov : It is important not to let it go to the West, but that the hunt for their funds in the accounts began. And this will apply to their children. This is a very important fundamental moment, which has not yet been used as a means of influence on such a scale. This, by the way, means a new stage of relations. At first, the arms race began, which no one hides. And we are promoted to the same rake that the Soviet Union has come. We joined the arms race. The second is this very stage that we are talking about - a blow to personal matters, personal accounts. This is a very painful blow. I must say that this tactic can lead to very serious consequences. Thus, the modern establishment may not be at all interested in the screwing of the nuts. That is, this tactic, on the one hand, is extremely influential. And on the other hand, it is extremely dangerous for me and me. Because when there are no these accounts, etc., all desire to weaken something there disappears. On the contrary, there is a tendency to tighten the nuts in full! To hell with the West! And to the iron curtain literally one step.
Elena Rykovtseva : So far, everyone has not yet been outweighed. There are those who can still be west. They will try to somehow soften this policy.
Evgeny Dobrenko : I think, just the calculation and is done to split modern elites in Russia. The position of the West proceeds from the fact that Putin's reign is based on the elite agreement. As soon as he cannot ensure that the elites are needed, he will lose the confidence of the elites, the split of the elites will begin, and his rule will end there. Actually, this is a very simple calculation.
Raf Shakirov : I would not say that Putin’s reign is an elite agreement. Of course, there are clans.
Evgeny Dobrenko : And when these clans, in whose hands there are huge money, will understand that as a result of his politics they cannot send their children there, they will say that we do not need such a ruler. This is the calculation.
Raf Shakirov : There will be only an external impact in the form of a serious wave of the crisis and the inability to cope with the challenges of budgetary obligations due to falling oil prices.
Elena Rykovtseva : Whose external impact?
Raf Shakirov : Crisis.
Elena Rykovtseva : To whom?
Evgeny Dobrenko : To Russia.
Raf Shakirov : We repeat the approach of the USSR. We joined the arms race. We spend frantic money on this instead of engaging in the restructuring of the economy and creating new industries.
Elena Rykovtseva : And in Europe a crisis, and oil falls.
Raf Shakirov : Yes. Also personal pressure, and the lack of a desire to go to at least some reforms. This means that the boiler is closed. There is an accumulation of steam. We practically follow the traces of the Soviet Union.
Elena Rykovtseva : In many SMSs of our listeners, such a topic sounds, Putin has oil, gas, which means Putin - his own, and this alien.
Evgeny Dobrenko : There is a good English proverb. If you can defeat this stranger, buy it. The British did this. They built their empire for centuries in this empire. What is the problem?! But for some reason they don’t want to buy it. It is more profitable for them, probably, to keep it as a dictator.
By the way, to say about all this logic that this is gas, because Russia has energy resources, etc., so double standards ... if so, and why then do this list of Magnitsky need this list?
Elena Rykovtseva : She did not catch the logic of the question.
Evgeny Dobrenko : The logic is very simple. From what we come from when this dictator, but he is not a dictator. Russia has gas. Therefore, Putin is not recognized as a dictator in the West. This is the position that the majority shares.
Elena Rykovtseva : Why do they recognize Putin, and they make a list of Magnitsky? Because all the same, the Magnitsky list is a very small part of officials and not the highest damage.
Raf Shakirov : Duster trouble began.
Evgeny Dobrenko : We all know very well how these lists begin. They all start with such a Magnitsky list. Then it grows, grows. After all, the Belarusian list also began with something there.
Elena Rykovtseva : How do you explain it then? The right hand does one thing, and the left - the other? That is, some spit on gas and oil and quarrel with Russia, covering officials with access to themselves, while others greet some political forces with open arms?
Evgeny Dobrenko : I think this is the same political forces. No one there with open arms accepts anyone. With open arms, only the Chancellor of Germany accept the president of France.
Raf Shakirov : We talked about Brezhnev that he had different periods. By the way, these actions of the English government that Lukashenko is not allowed, they probably have been promoted, Lukashenko, to some hesitation. We have already seen them. As soon as negotiations on the price of oil and gas with Russia or a transit to the pipe are not aligned, where he sits and receives a significant part of the income from this pipe through his structures ... Of course, he had fluctuations. There were periods of exacerbation in the negotiations. Then he rushed into the arms of the West. Similarly, all the rachmon and so on are acting. They play two fronts. As soon as relations with the Americans do not develop, they rushed to Russia. They play on this and extract from this quite mercantile benefits.
Evgeny Dobrenko : But the game needs a couple. They played with Lukashenko for many years. I'm afraid after what happened to the elections, arrests, I think that the West finally realized that he was simply driven by his nose. I think that in fact, they want to drive him into a dead end.
Raf Shakirov : I agree absolutely. All their politics is aimed at shifting this regime. I do not think that they understood something, but did not understand before.
Evgeny Dobrenko : There were illusions.
Raf Shakirov : Here is the Middle Eastern theme. Everyone forgot Iraq. But they did not find weapons and will never find. Game with Syria. Game with Iran. This is a game in a very long perspective.
Elena Rykovtseva : Leonid Nikolaevich Zhura calls us. .
Student : Your interlocutors left the question of comparing Putin and Lukashenko.
Elena Rykovtseva : Yes, they do not want to answer him, I have long understood.
Student: They do not want to answer. Because if you compare Lukashenko’s presidential elections, when absolutely all candidates for the presidency were registered, everyone was provided with television broadcast, and Putin Limonov, Yavlinsky were removed from the elections. Putin himself refused the debate, referring, they say, the law allows. A normal person who was 12 years old in power, long ago, would abolish the idiotic law!
Elena Rykovtseva : In your view, Putin is a much larger dictator than Democrat Lukashenko, who put all his opponents on the air.
Raf Shakirov : And then he put him in jail.
Елена Рыковцева : Кстати, Леонид Николаевич, они посидели все.
Евгений Добренко : Некоторые до сих пор сидят.
Елена Рыковцева : Тогда почему, с вашей точки зрения, Лукашенко официально признан диктатором, а Путин не признан?
Слушатель : Так это же лицемерие Запада. Вы только что упоминали и Назарбаева, и Рахомна и т. д. Они же рукопожатные! А Лукашенко – нет. Более того, вчера буквально Медведев говорил о необходимости продажи земли в стране. А у Лукашенко все поля засеяны. Никакой неухоженный земли нет.
Елена Рыковцева : Федор из Санкт-Петербурга завершит нашу программу.
Слушатель : Меня поразил цинизм ваших экспертов. Конечно, они крутились, как ужи на сковороде. Я поддерживаю, что Лукашенко не пустили. Он диктатор. Не надо разводить демагогию. Диктатор и тиран – это страшное порождение. Нужно и в отношении Путина это сделать, и отменять Олимпиаду в Сочи.