Psychosis is together and the third force

Odessa psychiatrist and poet Boris Kherson about the neurosis of the city, riddles on May 2, Anti -Maidan and the "right sector"

How will Odessites behave if Russian troops entered the city? Is there any reason to talk about the participation of the "third force" in the clashes of May 2? Why did the Ukrainian nationalist and Odessa rabbi painted anti -Semitic inscriptions together? Boris Grigoryevich Kherson, one of the most famous Russian -speaking poets of Ukraine, the head of the department of clinical psychology of Odessa University, the author of six monographs in psychology, answers these questions.

Odessa psychiatrist and poet Boris Kherson about the neurosis of the city, riddles on May 2, Anti -Maidan and the "right sector"

- Boris Grigoryevich, you have just finished taking patients. I have that I have now increased work. Non -oral disorders are always exacerbated in the spring, but now, of course, the reasons are political .

- Probably, the work of those who work directly in the service of psychological assistance was added: a helpline, volunteers who are advanced to the place where the clashes occurred. We now have such a trust in Odessa specially organized, and there are volunteer services. Of course, they have hard. Among those people I observe, are all different. There are those that more or less persistently tolerate what is happening, and even mobilize. By the way, you probably know, walking information: during the Great Patriotic War, the total number of such neurotic disorders was less. And it was less simply because people were not up to that, real problems obscured internal problems.

- There are fewer neurotic disorders, but mass psychoses occur. And now we can observe the same scheme according to which mass psychoses arose in 1914, during the Civil War in Russia, in the 1930s in Germany and in the Soviet Union. After all, not only a person, but also a whole country can go crazy: hundreds of thousands, even millions of people. To ABS, now is just such a situation.

- The walking term is the official psychiatric - "psychosis together." This is when there is a sick person, and next to him is healthy, but falling under the influence of the patient. And after some time he begins to "carry the same nonsense" as a sick person. Only one nonsense has painful, and the second is inspired. There may be psychosis with the whole people, everyone goes crazy together. It depends on the power of the inspiring factor and the authority of the person who inspires.

- With an indifferent factor , this is television.

- Of course. The main enemy of the human mind is , of course, a TV. In the 1970s, we all called the TV a debilizer, a box. Today it is rather a schizophrenisator or, more precisely, a paranoizer. That is, this is something that inspires people with fear, delirium and a simplified scheme of perception of the world.

-Hurray -patriotism is also a form of mental disorder?

- No. You can glue the label of a mental disorder. Any supervision that makes a person not see reality, of course, can be called that. But this is a normal phenomenon of human society, this is a typical manifestation of mass psychology that we have encountered and will still encounter. Unfortunately, this is not a pathology. I would like it only to concern sick people, but these epidemics cover healthy.

- events of May 2 - a blow to the nervous system of Odessa . If we consider the city as a single organism, how has its psychology changed in recent days?

The psychiatric term is "psychosis of the two." This is when there is a sick person, and next to him is healthy, but falling under the influence of the patient. There may be psychosis with the whole people, everyone goes crazy together

- metaphorically - yes, we can say that the city is a single organism. In fact, of course, the city is completely not one. He will always be split into classes, ethnic groups, clans. And Odessa is no exception, Odessa was like that. But in Odessa there was such a force uniting the city as an Odessa myth. And this myth claimed that Odessa is one, that gypsies, Jews, Ukrainians, Russians, Poles would live nearby in the courtyard, and all of them will treat each other with a fried fish prepared on a primus in the center of the courtyard. This, of course, is a myth. And what was before the war, after the war, during the war, it shows. Jews were calmly destroyed, only 21 people in Odessa were covered with Jews and were recognized as the righteous of the world. Little, yes, to a millionth city. The Germans were evicted. Father Svyatoslav Richter, Theophilus, organist, shot. The Greeks were evicted, sent, or rather. The rest of Odessa looked at this calmly. But in recent decades, the city again lived with this myth - everything is fine with us, even if it is bad, but Odessa is something fundamentally different. Now we see: Odessa is the same, it is split from the inside. We are ready to bring down each other a number of reproaches and accusations, we can now talk to each other with foam at the mouth. So it happens, alas.

- When you started talking about the Jews, I recall a recent plot : the main rabbi of Odessa Abraham Wolf and the radical Ukrainian nationalist together paint anti -Semitic inscriptions. How to explain this?

- This is part of the new view of Ukrainian nationalists on interethnic relations. You probably know that there is a “freedom” association in Ukraine, which admits very rude anti -Russian, anti -Jewish (at least) statements, it was published that there was no Holocaust, but on the contrary, there was a global Jewish conspiracy. That is a complete set. And there is a “right sector” that appeared on the Maidan - these are really right -wing nationalists, very tough. Moreover, these are all fighting guys, they may have a bottle with Molotov’s cocktail, and Kalashnikov’s machine, they are fighting. But during the formation, it became clear to them that they could not afford what “freedom” allowed themselves, and they must declare a single strong Ukraine, in which ethnic groups should hold together. Yes, the center, of course, Ukrainians, as a nation that forms, “glory of the nation”, “death to the enemies” - all these slogans with them. But they will never talk about the Jews, nor about Lyahs, nor Muscovites, they will talk about friends of Ukraine and its enemies. It can be a tactical move, yes, but today it is. And this cannot but cause some respect even to these extremely right -handed people. Honestly, I still do not support them, I do not believe that this movement at one moment has become really good, but I would like it to be a deep transformation. That is, I hope that maybe something really has moved.

-I now watched the “ reality ” of the scenes shot on May 2, -the assault on the police station, which contained detained separatists , and then the rally of the “Right Sector” in Odessa-and drew attention to the fact that Ukrainian-speaking people in the minority , the “right-wing sector” also mainly says in Russian. E , you, as a poet , you know the best, - first of all , in the language ...

There can be no war on the child with the boxer of the first category. Ukraine cannot be compared by capacity with Russian troops

- I agree with you. Odessa is a Russian -speaking city. Odessa residents have always reproached that they speak poor Russian. And I myself will not say “STO”, as normal people say, and I will say “what”, as we say. I can say the words “five” and “meat” as if there is a soft sign. I can say that I “missed someone”, and not “for someone”, because everyone around said so. Naturally, I'm trying to control it. Odessa spoke Russian, saturated with idyshisms, Ukrainisms, but the form -forming language of Odessa is Russian. And to this day, of course, in Odessa, most people speak Russian. But the population of Odessa is changing. For 50 years and quite Ukrainian -speaking people who support the Ukrainian language in their families came here for 50 years. For example, my closest colleague at the University of Olya Donets, Associate Professor, she is from a Ukrainian-speaking family, they have everyone in the family in Ukrainian and never spoke Russian, despite the fact that Olga, of course, in Russian, is the desire of students - this is the desire of students. Now it turns out that there is no more unity in the language. It turns out that in one language you can speak things that are incompatible. You can argue with each other in one language, you can hate each other in one language. I can speak Russian, and my interlocutor is in Ukrainian, I usually speak Ukrainian when they talk to me in Ukrainian, but this is insignificant. I perfectly understand that we have an inner unity that went beyond the limits of the tongue. Moreover, I am observing this not as a phenomenon of this month, but as a phenomenon of the last five years, when the movement of, at least, the cultural layer of Russian -speaking people and the cultural layer of Ukrainian -speaking. But in a literary environment, for example, we translate each other. We are interested in what we are doing together, and we are increasingly aware that Ukrainian culture can have several languages, and not only Russian and Ukrainian.

- We talked about the “right sector”, but there is the opposite of the spectrum - anti -Maidan, people who want to return to the Soviet Union, who say at rallies that the CIA is zombie and abducts people. Is it an interest in the past for a psychiatrist?

I am a supporter of the theory of the third force. But the third force intervened when, in general, the first two simplest were ready

- For me, the generational stratification of people is of interest. And if we talked about stratification by type of language and we understand that this division is slightly decreasing, then the stratification by generations increases. People who do not know such words - the Soviet Union grew up. They are now 22, 23, up to 30 years old. Because those who have lived under Gorbachev for the first five years also do not really know what the Soviet Union is. By the way, it is among these people that we sometimes see the romanticization of the Soviet Union simply because they never knew him. But most of them, of course, are completely integrated, I would say, in the modern Ukrainian lifestyle. They do not want either the Soviet Union or to Russia, in whatever language they speak. And those who have lived in the USSR, who are used to, who are used to, that the world is divided into ours and Germans, because they played in our and Germans in the yard, and all the cinema of Russia, 90% of the literature of Russia were about the Germans and ours, the enemies who take us to the ring, and our heroes who break this ring and carry happiness, whether these other happiness want or not. Here they somehow osterize in this life, in this worldview. And the more the surrounding life is different from their stereotypes, the stronger they hold on to these stereotypes. This, by the way, is psychologically completely clear: they perceive the environment as something aggressive, replacing them from life. And this is true, because sooner or later they, and my life will replace me, but it is felt very painful. Only I am not upset, but on the contrary, I am more likely to rejoice that young people growing, who will live differently and will not see only their or enemies in each other. So, Anti -Maidan, like any force that arose as “anti -”, it largely duplicates the radicalism of the organization that it confronts. And maybe not everyone will agree with this. But you probably understand that the supporters of the Maidan at the beginning of the movement were seized by administrative buildings, today Anti -Maidan does it. At first, people's veche and folk governors began to be chosen in Western Ukraine, and now they are chosen in the east. Once I said that, in the end, while I am an anti-communist, communism matters to me. We are healed when ideology loses all meaning and this confrontation is no longer interested in us. I see young people now, fortunately, who is not interesting.

- Anti -Maidan has a leader, inspirer, hero - Vladimir Putin. Many are now diagnosed with him in absentia after the angel Merkel, who said that Putin had lost touch with reality. What do you say about the mental health of the patient Putin, whom you observe on the television screen?

Russia received the leader with those psychological characteristics and those unconscious claims that the leader has

- You know, I have one rule: I never make anyone diagnoses if they don’t ask me about it - either the client or his relatives. I have a standard answer: I will not say whether he is healthy or sick, but I would not take him into therapy for a number of considerations. And outside the mental diagnosis, outside of psychiatry, I can afford to say this. Russia after Stalin had general secretaries, the chairmen of the Presidium of the Supreme Council, was even President Gorbachev and then President Yeltsin. But Russia did not have a leader. Here Stalin died, and there is no leader. We were even sure that the era of the leaders was over, that it was somewhere there the remnants of the eastern type - Kim Il Su and his descendants. It turned out not. And Russia received the leader with those psychological characteristics and the unconscious claims that the leader has. For example: the president is not obliged to jump on a horse, shoot at a tiger, catch a pike or dive behind amphoras. The leader is a different matter, it is desirable that he does all this, because he shows that he is a versatile person and he can take on anything, he is almost omnipresent. He is at the bottom of Lake Baikal, he is in the Russian world, he is in the Far Eastern forest, he is in car races, he is on a powerful motorcycle. He is a fighter, he has a black belt. That is, this is a powerful strong person who wants to be everywhere and wants to win everyone. This is a very difficult thing when such an idea of yourself ripens inside you and you want to match it. This is what I can say without labels.

- Boris Grigoryevich, you are not an investigator and not a political expert, but, probably, now every Odessa citizen has his own idea of what happened on May 2. I read many explanations of witnesses, participants, observers. Of course, conspiracy theories prevail, as always, that everything was adjusted by agents from outside - Putin, CIA, some kind of third force. After all, people are not at all ready to look for simple explanations. What do you think?

- There cannot be a simple explanation. I am a supporter of the theory of the third force. But the third force intervened when, in general, the first two simplest were ready. For example, ultras, football fans pro -Ukrainian are ready -made power, no one has inspired it, it just exists. They go their route for football matches, they shout “Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes! Glory to the nation! Death to the enemies!”. In the same way, anti -Maidan exists. And in general, there is always a danger of the fact that these two forces will converge in one place. While the Maidan has, say, with Duke, and Anti -Maidan was on the Kulikovo field, everything is okay, the main thing is that they would not meet. But here they met. And here's the question: who organized this meeting for them? It was a spontaneous reaction to go to beat the ultras that go to football, or were they prompted the guys? This is the first moment. Then even more strange things begin. The position of the police, which, sharing the ultras and anti -Maidan, conditionally call them so, generally protects them for the time being, anti -Maidan. Moreover, the police appear behind the backs of the police, and this is documented, people who resemble police officers, but they have red bandages on their sleeves, and these people shoot from the spin of police officers. And do not always miss, note. And there are those who run forward, shoot, and then hide again. And there are such photos too. Here's the question: what are these people who shot from behind the police? Further: the second and main series of tragedy, of course, is a fire in the house of trade unions. This, by the way, is the former regional party committee. The May Day demonstrations of my youth all walked past the stands precisely in this square on which this bloody terrible story unfolded. It seems to be also clear: the angry ultras went to deal with the anti -Maidan camp. Requested, burned. What happened next? Why did the people who were in this square not run up? Ultras went there in general good half an hour, because so much we need to go from Greek square to Kulikovo field. I do not believe that no one had a phone and no one told the guys on the Kulikovo field that it was better to leave. Nevertheless, they stayed. Why did they go into the building? Why did the fire started as it began? Why are the corpses in such provisions in which they were? For example, why did they suddenly burn their faces, but the lower half of the body was not affected? Why are the charred corpses lie in the rooms where wooden furniture, tables, chairs did not light up? How did this happen? Again, there are just riddles, by the way, your employee Elena Rykovtseva noted this. The entire network went around the photos of a pregnant woman who lies on the table, suffocating from the flame. At a careful consideration, first we see a tourniquet on her neck. That is, it is clear that it was not poisoned by carbon monoxide, but simply strangled . With an even more careful consideration, we see that this is an elderly person. What is the pregnancy? And finally, our doctors who are engaged in the examination deny that the pregnant woman was generally killed. Что это за снимок, кто на нем изображен? Почему вместо того, чтобы работала экспертиза, работает пропаганда? Почему бесконечно монтируются одни и те же кадры? Причем частично фальсифицируются при монтаже. Here are questions. То есть я понимаю, что эти вещи стали материалом для пропаганды. Были ли они с самого начала задуманы как материалы для пропаганды? Слишком, я думаю, жесткий вариант, но, к сожалению, все вокруг нас сейчас слишком жестко.

– Многие думают, что все это пролог к оккупации – если не всей Украины, то, по крайней мере, ее части. Представим, что Путин сейчас вводит войска и российские танки появляются на улицах Одессы, как в Праге в 1968 году. Как их появление воспримет город, можете предсказать?

Почему вместо того, чтобы работала экспертиза, работает пропаганда? Почему бесконечно монтируются одни и те же кадры?

– Я думаю, что значительная часть города не огорчится такому варианту, будет кому вынести хлеб с солью и отнестись к русским войскам как к освободителям. И это может быть связано опять-таки с инерцией мышления, которая есть у людей, даже в каком-то смысле и у меня она есть. Я не могу себе представить русского солдата, в которого я буду стрелять, даже если он в меня будет стрелять. Не могу и все. Может быть, это стереотип "наши и немцы", и он во мне тоже живет. А может быть потому, что я понимаю, что этот человек не виноват, он идет по приказу сверху, виноваты те, кто приказал ему идти. А может быть потому, что я человек не военный. Но вы хотите знать, будут ли люди с цветами, с хлебом-солью? Will be. Будут ли те, которые будут недовольны? Конечно, полгорода будет недовольно. Но сколько из этой половины будет все-таки готово стрелять, вредить и так далее? Вы знаете, что даже в Праге в общем-то и целом попыток вооруженного сопротивления не было. Сжег себя студент на площади – это была такая страшная форма протеста. Столкнули какой-то танк, но настоящей войны не было. Потому что не может быть войны ребенка с боксером первого разряда или мастером спорта по боксу, или по борьбе. Просто потому, что Украина не может сравниться по мощности с русскими войсками. Так вот, те, кто будут недовольны, в основном будут, конечно, сидеть дома и обсуждать это на кухне. А те, кто будут пытаться как-то воевать, я думаю, их быстро выловят.

Но вопрос в том, что тут уж точно есть третья сила. Да, Украина, да, Россия, но есть Европейский союз, есть Соединенные Штаты Америки, и от позиции этой реальной в отличие от Украины силы сегодня многое зависит. На сегодняшний день российская пропаганда говорит: это все сделал Обама, это все сделал Европейский союз, это заговор НАТО. Или кто это высказался – или Жириновский, или Зюганов, – что это свора натовской сволочи во главе с бандеровскими генералами. Скажем, такой впечатляющий образ врага – свора натовской сволочи. На самом деле Запад ничего пока не сделал, кроме заявлений и косметических санкций. Крым спокойно сдан, корабли натовские в Черное море не вошли, никакого военного конфликта здесь не было. Но встает вопрос, и это самая опасная вещь, что на каком-то уровне противостояния Украины и России может возникнуть глобальный конфликт, и это – по-настоящему опасно. Я надеюсь, что это понимают как в Кремле, так и в Вашингтоне, так и в Брюсселе. То есть это опасность глобального противостояния, когда уже, кто прав, кто виноват, значения не имеет.

– Борис Григорьевич, мы говорили о политике и психиатрии, но вы поэт. Э тот огромный общественный всплеск, разлом последних месяцев вдохновляет вас?

– Да, скорее вдохновляет. Я много за это время написал. Это очень горькие в основном стихи. Сложилась даже небольшая книга за последние полгода, она называется "Missa in tempore belli" (“Месса времен войны”). Такая месса действительно существует. Она написана была Гайдном . И главное в ней – это то, что литавры в последней ее части Agnus Dei имитируют гром пушек. А сам по себе текст Agnus Dei – это призыв к Господу дать людям мир: dona nobis pacem. И вот это противоречие между громом пушек и призывом к миру меня "завело". Вот такая книжка написана, я не знаю, кто и когда ее напечатает: в России, наверное, не напечатает никто, в Украине, наверное, да. Я прочитаю последнее стихотворение.

В театре военных бездействий – долгий антракт.
Актеры в гримерных. Музыканты – в ближайших борделях.
Двое в партере обсуждают теракт.
Бомбы тикают нетерпеливо в черных портфелях.

На опущенном занавесе – гербы воюющих стран.
Взад-вперед ездит танк из папье-маше в проходах.
У каждого кресла – мощный пожарный кран.
Вспышка быстро погаснет в холодных летейских водах.