Translated material
25 years of MDG: Why did the USSR die?
Vladimir Kara-Murza : History as always persistently reminds of itself. A series of anniversaries continues to be related to the quarter -century anniversary of the first congress of people's deputies of the USSR. Veterans of the interregional deputy group gathered this week.
We will have a co -chair of the interregional deputy group Yuri Afanasyev , there will also be experts of the People’s Deputy of the USSR Yuri Boldyrev , Gennady Burbulis , Sergey Stankevich . My substitute Nikolai Ilyich Travkin will tell us how he was elected to the congress, from which district?
Nikolai Travkin : I do not remember the number of the district, territorially it was the city of Korolev, now the regional Kaliningrad, Fryazino, Shchelkovo. The districts were large - 500 thousand, if not more, voters. Two districts and two cities of regional significance were part of the district. 14 candidates were. Moreover, as mandatory candidates, this, in my opinion, was a party attitude when Gorbachev was driving in a single-mandate election of the secretaries of the regional committees, city committees and district committees. Therefore, among the 14 - two first secretaries of the district committees and the city committee, director of large factories. Since the district included the Air Force Academy, a general of this academy, some colonel. Two rounds. The first round of the winner did not give. I was the first, but not enough. Moreover, not so much was not enough-49 with something percent.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : It's a shame.
Nikolai Travkin : The second round. There was already confident victory. But the most interesting thing is when they complain today that they grind, dishonest elections, etc. The snow melted, spring came, streams flowed and in a rifle in a stream found packs of ballots, thrown out, voted for me. If these packs were not there, then the first round would be enough. After all, the first secretaries or direct proteges of the CPSU failed everywhere. Almost all the first secretaries of the regional committees, with the exception of Central Asia, failed. The turnout is high. The average in Russia, in my opinion, was about 91%, and in these districts, in the capital, the metropolitan region of the turnout reached 95%. People walked. There was no backlash for fraud. 5%! High 5%, throw it out, throw it out. And 95%that came, you can’t get anywhere! Today's turnout, when 30% comes, here you can walk along the buffet - whom to throw for. So, the interest of citizens in the elections is decisive according to the results. This is the first lesson.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : How did you find your like-minded people among deputies? I understand that you personally knew someone. And how was the interregional deputy group formed?
Nikolai Travkin : The first elections. There were no organizations. And these public organizations, political organizations arose around each candidate, primarily the so -called democratic candidate.
How did I get into the campaign? I was in the hospital with radiculitis. They came to me with Fryazino from the Research Institute. By the way, these were the most active people. We arrived and offered to run. Actually, my fame was construction. I was then the hero of social labor, already quite promoted. Maybe one of the first television scrapped by the then. And as the author of the collective contract, I traveled already in Russia. They knew me. And then they offered to run. And then, in addition to you, the team is organized, who nominated you - headquarters. Further, these headquarters begin to contrive each other. Nearby is a man nominated not by the city committee of the party, but, say, a democrat. They begin to contrast with each other. Thus, the structures have grown, and by the end of the elections, Demrossia was formed. Demrossia was not a political organization, but just popular fronts first appeared. And this "Demrossia", when the elections ended, and it became clear who became the deputy, they had this list. Bright, letters came. These headquarters had a multiply technique. They could print. This public organization, which held the deputies to Demrossia, was the progenitor of the inter -regional deputy group.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Sergey Stankevich recalls the beginning of the work of the interregional deputy group.
Sergey Stankevich : Initially, there was a Moscow deputy group. Soon after the first elections, the people's deputies of Moscow began to gather. At first this was done in the eye clinic of Fedorov. Fedorov was such a political activist, a democrat. He provided the room. And all the first fees were there. The Moscow deputy group arose. The moral authority there was Andrey Dmitrievich Sakharov. There we regularly sat up late, preparing for the congress that was supposed to open in May 1989. We discussed all sorts of different tactical options.
In addition, of course, we sent messengers and received guests from other territorial deputy groups. First of all, the connection was established with Leningraders. Then they were still Leningraders, not the St. Petersburg. The Baltic states, and Ukrainians, and people from other regions came to us. But the core remained a Moscow group. Then, by the way, for the first time I heard the political doctrine of Sakharov, which somehow after midnight even a little awarded during our debate. And then he said at the end of the following phrase: “Listen, I, unlike all of you, is a novice politician, you can say, young. But it seems to me that the most correct tactics are the next. No one knows how much this thaw will last - a week, two. Believe my experience, you can turn it in one hour.”
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Nikolai Ilyich, you became famous for your winged expressions, with folk humor performances. How do you remember your very first performance on this forum?
Nikolai Travkin : The very first performance, when the first organizational assembly was not only interregional, but wider - before the congress. He led, in my opinion, Lukyanov. I remember that I acted with issues of benefits. And he seemed to me the most important.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : privileges?
Nikolai Travkin : Yes. This is the abolition of those benefits that were present at the license plate. Why was it called an interregional group? In theory, this is an opposition. Why was the word "opposition" not present? At one of the first meetings, Sakharov spoke and said that the word "opposition" should be present. We must openly say that we are the opposition. This was the entire interregional group met with such fear and in hostility! We are not an opposition. The opposition is there, and we are from different regions, so we are interregional. It is today, turning the head back that the interregional group, they knew how to build a market economy, democratic societies. Nothing of the kind! And we were going to build, and Yeltsin in the first performances in the interregional group told how to build fair socialism. That the socialism that Gorbachev offers with a human face will not decisively build it, and we will be decisively. Even an interregional group with extreme, like, positions did not think about capitalism.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Yuri Boldyrev recalls his very first speech at the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR.
Yuri Boldyrev : I recently sent me the video of my first performance at the congress. It was short, simple about the fact that not everyone would be able to speak, and the voter has the right to know what we were doing here. Therefore, let's enter a fixed vote. And, in general, there was nothing special in my proposal, but the reaction of the Secretary General Gorbachev was indicative that this was an attempt to take our congress the wrong way. And then he begins to consider those who for the option proposed by the Presidium, who are against and abstained. Imagine a hall of 2250 people, and the head of state on his head believes who is against it! Can you imagine the scale of insanity?! And so he counted, I don’t remember, a 50 or 70 person who is against or abstained. These are those who are against the transformation of this 2250 people into Khural, who will simply shout "approval!" Because all very different people gathered at the congress, with very different views on everything that happened later, with a very different role. For many of them, the Congress of People's Deputies was not the only peak of life, a peak. These are all very different people, but who did not want to be a dancer, did not want to be a corps de ballet.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : When did you feel like an opposition?
Nikolai Travkin : Of course, in the center of the interregional group and around whom it was going Yeltsin. It is clear that the opposition of Yeltsin was the capture of power, a personal attitude to Gorbachev, resentment and anything. What to do next - no one thought. It seems to me that in the interregional group there was no person who could say so step -by -step - how to move from today, and you can’t live like that, how to live? How to make this transition? No one knew. Further - the concentration of the interregional group was around Yeltsin. Crazy popularity! Who could see a sane against Yeltsin? And tomorrow Yeltsin in your district will say that you are a retrograde. Voters tend you there. When we reproach with a lack of democracy of opponents, we somehow forget that any structure created by us or opponents of these autocrats is built on the same autocracy rules. It existed. This was present in the interregional group.
The gloss of the opposition came from two people-from Afanasyev, who directly said that the overthrow of the Communist Party, the renunciation of Gorbachev’s power, the 6th article and about the same Sakharov. Two people who called a spade their names. At first it caused a fright. Then it sounded within the walls of the Congress of People's Deputies. They did not take anyone and did not abandon in the cold, there were no arrests. The next day, this word began to firmly enter into use.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : It was in those days that the legal opposition of communist power arose, recalls Sergey Stankevich.
Sergey Stankevich : Sakharov tactics worked. For 13 days of the first congress of people's deputies, we had another country, and we had the first legal democratic opposition in the conditions of the Soviet Union. Before that, the dissidents were forced to work in a semi -underground or just underground, and this was a legal political opposition. And it was called the interregional deputy group. The core was the Moscow group of deputies. The Leningrad group joined her, the Balts joined. The result was such an MDG.
The moment of creating this very interregional deputy group was associated with the following. Almost all of the democrats lit up at that time were not elected to the Supreme Council, including Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin. And as if the question arose, since we are not allowed to work on real laws, then nothing needs to be abandoned, we proclaim the immediate creation of the opposition, and we will oppose what is happening, the majority that has developed during the elections to the Supreme Council. Then the famous phrase was Yuri Afanasyev about the aggressively obedient majority. But what is opposed to this aggressively obedient majority is the newly formed opposition.
Nikolai Travkin : I am forced to oppose the people I am respected, if not friends. No one forbade the deputy, if he is not a member of the Supreme Council, to engage in legislative activities. Moreover, I was not a member of the Supreme Council, but I can work and receive a salary there, as well as a member of the Supreme Council, in the local government committee. Yes, I can’t vote at the Supreme Council, but all the work on bills - for God's sake! The doors were not closed to lawmaking.
The main failure of the interregional deputy group is that it has encouraged all of Russia, that you can change everything, make a wonderful life without your participation. Your task is that we would be chosen, and we will do everything for you. The people sat at the TVs and said-they sent to remove the CPSU, the 6th article, and then to remove the state plan, etc. Make us happiness. And the interregional group drove into the head of voters that she would make them happy without their participation. Then it went. This is probably the main fault of the first democrats, deputies. And once in expectations, voters were deceived, and a negative attitude towards democracy itself began. The interregional group, first of all, was supposed to inject the brains of citizens that your efforts are needed. She was supposed to work not on bills, how to quickly remove Gorbachev and not to fight him, but on the creation of such structures that would help to develop local government. The interregional group firmly believed that the main thing is to remove Gorbachev. We will come to power and do everything! The Democrats had no thoughts in the brains-but how to remove this infantilism below?! What mechanisms need to be turned on so that people turn into citizens! This is where the miss.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Gennady Burbulis believes that 25 years ago Russia was capable of spiritual production.
Gennady Burbulis : Social reality, injured society is not a doomed, not fatal history of Russia. There are no more or less it. She is always there. 25 years ago we were capable of spiritual production. Today it has changed a little in form and content. After all, the ideal of MDG was never to lose heart, never lowering his hands, never losing our fraternity, allies.
Nikolai Travkin : The amazing ability of Gennady Eduardovich, when he says, you hear. I finished talking, you think - what did he talk about? Boris Nikolaevich listened to him as well. As he begins to explain to Boris Nikolaevich, how to do what to do, he sits and cannot break away. Then Gennady Eduardovich closes his mouth, nothing besieges in his head. What is the spiritual brotherhood? One country, only people. The only thing the MDG members were different was still personalities. The gray man could not break through. Having gathered together, this gave a special glow to the interregional group itself. But there was no uniform kinship of the spiritual, worldview, and it could not be.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Yuri Boldyrev recalls that the interregional group tried to build relations with all political forces.
Yuri Boldyrev : MDG has never been an anti -communist group. These were not anti -community, they were very different people with a very different worldview. They were united by only one thing that were strong, independent, real people who are aware of their responsibility to those who sent them, and did not want to dance in the corps de ballet. That's all! And among them there were people of left-handed, right, and Russian-shovinistic, any views. But this is a worthy team. These are different strong independent people, which remained, what is their value.
Unfortunately, history moves in cycles, waves. The periods are being replaced by the heroes, when independent bright personalities are needed, unfortunately, periods come from periodically when not just servants, but courteous flatterers are needed, we need silent, often gray mice, etc. But the story does not end. We will hope that some new stages will demand new heroes, and these heroes will be your children and grandchildren who can be realized in some kind of public-state activity, and not necessarily die immediately, like cannon fodder.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Why are there no equal to your generation of politicians?
Nikolai Travkin : This is a tragedy, this is a disaster. We say - new heroes, new bright personalities must appear. God forbid! As soon as a new hero appears, a new bright person, people again forget that they should somehow move and wait for him to do beautifully. Putin down! Navalny will come and make you happiness, but nothing depends on you. So we will shy away from the hero to the hero. The fewer heroes on the political scene, the faster ordinary people will take up the brains.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : The Interregional Group managed to develop an alternative to the Communist Party of the platform, recalls Sergey Stankevich.
Sergey Stankevich : In the summer of 1990, the MDG has actually developed an alternative to the CPSU platform. Then they gathered in the House of Cinema. There was a full hall. Having distributed in sections, they wrote and approved the platform, in fact for the first time in a compressed form, representing the CPSU alternative and socialism, which then still existed and was not going to leave the stage. The most interesting, I recently watched this document again, the main disputes were not on the economy (it was clear to us that the market economy was needed) and not on the construction of the parliament (everything was also clear there), and just the fate of the Soviet Union caused the main disputes. There were discussions here. There were different projects, but the two main projects - the Sakharovsky Constitution (Sakharov was sure that the USSR would remain), and Galina Vasilievna Starovoyova had the most radical proposal. She was a specialist just in interethnic relations. Her project sounded as follows that there will be a federal core of several republics. Surely, she believed, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, perhaps Kazakhstan, will be, someone else is a federal core, and then the joining republics will be on a confederate basis. This agreement was the most radical. He was criticized precisely because not only federal relations were allowed.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Nikolai Ilyich, when did you start thinking about the creation of a democratic party that later arose?
Николай Травкин : В принципе, съезд, Межрегиональная группа уже подталкивало, что нужна организация общесоюзная, организация с нормальной общественно-политической дисциплиной. Иначе как можно с таким монстром как КПСС соревноваться?! How?! Люди организованные есть, партийная вертикаль. Они могут мобилизовать в любом месте эти партийные батальоны и т. д. Как это можно сделать в виде движения? Поэтому я и доказывал, что как движение мы ничего не добьемся. Надо создавать партию. Это сразу было принято в штыки всеми, в т. ч. Сергеем Борисовичем – партии свое отжили, движение более широкое, люди могут быть разные, 2-3 целевые установки общие, а дальше 100 цветов расцветают, сколько угодно мнений. Этим движением мы добьемся благоденствия. Я начал создавать партию. Она создавалась как Демократическая партия СССР. Пока она создавалась, рухнул Союз. Поэтому регистрировалась она уже и начала действовать как ДПР – Демократическая партия России.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Один из сопредседателей Межрегиональной группы Юрий Афанасьев вспоминает, что многие жители страны возлагали серьезные надежды на эту группу.
Юрий Афанасьев : Собственно говоря, все мы жили надеждой. На нас смотрели все, что мы, в конце концов, выразим каким-то образом эти чаяния или откликнемся как-то. Но вот в какой мере нам это удалось? Получилось ли это? This is a very big question. Собственно говоря, для меня теперь уже это не вопрос. Нам не удалось это сделать. Поэтому мы посеяли иллюзии. Люди на нас смотрели с надеждой, а мы не удовлетворили этот запрос.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : А вы как считаете, Николай Ильич?
Николай Травкин : В чем главный промах Межрегиональной группы? Юрий Николаевич говорит, что главный промах – мы не смогли удовлетворить надежд. А я говорю, что главный промах, что мы подпитывали эти надежды, а они изначально были бессмысленны. Сверху изменится власть, а дальше, не меняя страну, не меняя отношение граждан ни к чему, вдруг наступит это счастье?! То, что мы подпитывали эти надежды, это было вредно.
А с другой стороны, что значит – не смогли оправдать. Межрегиональная группа пришла к власти. Только она пришла к власти уже в России. Была победа демократов. Если бы демократы не победили, не избрали бы Ельцина председателем Президиума.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Но спецслужбы не сразу пришли к власти.
Николай Травкин : После Ельцина пришел Путин.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Как они вообще проникли? В МДГ не было работников спецслужб.
Николай Травкин : Этого никто не знает. Власть была с двумя лицами. Борис Николаевич и его ближний круг. Это тот круг, который вокруг него был как первого секретаря обкома, как кандидата в члены Политбюро, начиная от помощников и кончая руководителями администраций. Это одно лицо власти. Second. А что делать-то? Ну, мы много написали деклараций, а дальше власть взяли. Что-то надо делать теперь в России. Единственная команда, которая внятно могла что-то объяснить, даже не команда, а человек – это был Гайдар, который не только объяснял, куда мы идем, а еще и как он будет идти. С самого начала Гайдар говорил, что ему нужна сильнейшая политическая поддержка.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Успех Межрегиональной группы базировался на громких именах, полагает Сергей Станкевич.
Сергей Станкевич : В МДГ было очень много, как сейчас бы сказали, статусной интеллигенции. Там было десятка два одних академиков. Там были видные писатели, художники, поэты и прозаики. Это Красная книга нашей культуры. Кроме того, конечно, там были профессионалы юристы, профессионалы экономисты. Максимум того, что хотела Межрегиональная депутатская группа как альтернативы – это построения варианта рыночного, социально-ориентированного государства и очень поэтапной эволюции от коммунистического режима к этому государству. Настаивали на поэтапности, на постепенности, критиковали радикалов, в т. ч. встречаясь с ними на митингах.
Большая надежда была на Горбачева. С Горбачевым был короткий роман. Поначалу мы считали, что он как коммунист-реформатор должен сделать главную работу по трансформации социализма в какую-то рыночную структуру, демократическую структуру. А дальше можно уже развивать что-то. Но первоначально основная работа должна быть на Горбачеве и группе коммунистов-реформаторов. Поэтому им надо помогать, в т. ч. и оппонированием, не давая им скатиться назад, не давая их в обиду реакционерам. Продолжался этот роман с Горбачевым, в основном, до января 1991 года, до событий в Литве и Латвии.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Вы быстро разочаровались в Михаиле Сергеевиче?
Николай Травкин : Я в нем не разочаровался до сегодняшнего дня. Я считаю, что как фигура реформаторская, конечно, Горбачев выше Ельцина. Мы Ельцину приписываем свободы, все это горбачевские. Вспомните, когда "Взгляд" появился, "Московские новости", "Огонек" и т. д. Мало того, это была свобода 100-процентная. Журналист может выражать свое мнение, издание и телепрограмма – свое мнение. И им зарплату платило государство. Потом появился собственник, и уже собственник заменил цензора. Мы стали говорить – рынок, конкуренция, Березовский и Гусинский, а в середине будет истина. А при Горбачева даже государственные СМИ получали свободу.
Я убежден, что главная ошибка тогдашней оппозиции, в лице Межрегиональной группы, и особенно сегодняшней – это революционизм в ожидании быстрых перемен, желание сделать быстрые перемены и зубодробительная критика оппонента. Нельзя в России сделать ничего без власти снизу. Хочется, не хочется, но если ты думаешь не только о своем месте в политике, а думаешь о том, чтобы что-то сделать хорошее и нормальное в стране, ты обязан, стиснув зубы, найти тот кусок работы, который согласна делать и власть, и ты как оппозиционер. Пусть это 10% от всей работы – делайте ее. Без сотрудничества с властью – только революция. Одну революцию мы сегодня наблюдаем – это когда общество и страна откидывается на несколько витков назад. Никакая революция не улучшает.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Сергей Станкевич не разделяет сегодняшнего пессимизма своих коллег по МДГ.
Сергей Станкевич : Разочарований частных много, конечно. Разочарование в том, что не случилось много нужных для нас реформ, что Россия осталась недореформированной. Демократическое государство осталось недостроенным. Конкурентной, электоральной демократии не возникло и т. д. Вот такого рода частных разочарований по отдельным направлениям и институтам немало. Но я убежден, что мы вышли из исторического тупика, в котором находились в начале 90-х годов, и получили шанс все-таки построить нормальную страну. А то, что это займет гораздо больше времени, чем хочется отдельным демократам и либералам, ну, значит, займет. В России историческое время течет медленно.
Поскольку все-таки этот демократический, рыночный строй не мог вызреть в недрах старого, он фактически строился с чистого листа, да еще в столь драматических обстоятельствах, я думаю, что 25 лет это не так уж много. Как герой из фильма "Москва слезам не верит" говорил: "А вот встретимся с вами через 20 лет!". Вот я готов произнести эту фразу. Еще лет 20-25, я думаю, что, наконец, можно будет говорить о том, что у нас вполне современное, демократическое, социально-ответственное государство. Осталось только дожить.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Я считаю, что исторически проделан важнейший опыт вашим поколением политиков. What do you think?
Николай Травкин : То, что опыт – несомненно. Это опыт не только первой оппозиции во власти, появление узаконенного другого мнения, это опыт взаимодействия власти и оппозиции. Кстати, Горбачев терпел оппозицию. Он терпел. Он понимал, что за этой оппозицией есть очень серьезная поддержка людей, может быть, даже большинство. Когда демократы пришли к власти, этого терпения не было. Что такое 1993 год? Это тоже конфликт между властью и оппозицией. Why? Когда у власти был Горбачев, значит, не дошло до таких физических столкновений, а когда демократы пришли к власти, появился 1993 год. Because…
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Люди разные.
Николай Травкин : Люди разные. Нет внутри страны и не было человека или группы людей с готовыми решениями. Причем, эти решения базировались бы на каком-то цивилизованном демократическом опыте. Не было!
We will have a co -chair of the interregional deputy group Yuri Afanasyev , there will also be experts of the People’s Deputy of the USSR Yuri Boldyrev , Gennady Burbulis , Sergey Stankevich . My substitute Nikolai Ilyich Travkin will tell us how he was elected to the congress, from which district?
Nikolai Travkin : I do not remember the number of the district, territorially it was the city of Korolev, now the regional Kaliningrad, Fryazino, Shchelkovo. The districts were large - 500 thousand, if not more, voters. Two districts and two cities of regional significance were part of the district. 14 candidates were. Moreover, as mandatory candidates, this, in my opinion, was a party attitude when Gorbachev was driving in a single-mandate election of the secretaries of the regional committees, city committees and district committees. Therefore, among the 14 - two first secretaries of the district committees and the city committee, director of large factories. Since the district included the Air Force Academy, a general of this academy, some colonel. Two rounds. The first round of the winner did not give. I was the first, but not enough. Moreover, not so much was not enough-49 with something percent.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : It's a shame.
Nikolai Travkin : The second round. There was already confident victory. But the most interesting thing is when they complain today that they grind, dishonest elections, etc. The snow melted, spring came, streams flowed and in a rifle in a stream found packs of ballots, thrown out, voted for me. If these packs were not there, then the first round would be enough. After all, the first secretaries or direct proteges of the CPSU failed everywhere. Almost all the first secretaries of the regional committees, with the exception of Central Asia, failed. The turnout is high. The average in Russia, in my opinion, was about 91%, and in these districts, in the capital, the metropolitan region of the turnout reached 95%. People walked. There was no backlash for fraud. 5%! High 5%, throw it out, throw it out. And 95%that came, you can’t get anywhere! Today's turnout, when 30% comes, here you can walk along the buffet - whom to throw for. So, the interest of citizens in the elections is decisive according to the results. This is the first lesson.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : How did you find your like-minded people among deputies? I understand that you personally knew someone. And how was the interregional deputy group formed?
Nikolai Travkin : The first elections. There were no organizations. And these public organizations, political organizations arose around each candidate, primarily the so -called democratic candidate.
How did I get into the campaign? I was in the hospital with radiculitis. They came to me with Fryazino from the Research Institute. By the way, these were the most active people. We arrived and offered to run. Actually, my fame was construction. I was then the hero of social labor, already quite promoted. Maybe one of the first television scrapped by the then. And as the author of the collective contract, I traveled already in Russia. They knew me. And then they offered to run. And then, in addition to you, the team is organized, who nominated you - headquarters. Further, these headquarters begin to contrive each other. Nearby is a man nominated not by the city committee of the party, but, say, a democrat. They begin to contrast with each other. Thus, the structures have grown, and by the end of the elections, Demrossia was formed. Demrossia was not a political organization, but just popular fronts first appeared. And this "Demrossia", when the elections ended, and it became clear who became the deputy, they had this list. Bright, letters came. These headquarters had a multiply technique. They could print. This public organization, which held the deputies to Demrossia, was the progenitor of the inter -regional deputy group.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Sergey Stankevich recalls the beginning of the work of the interregional deputy group.
Sergey Stankevich : Initially, there was a Moscow deputy group. Soon after the first elections, the people's deputies of Moscow began to gather. At first this was done in the eye clinic of Fedorov. Fedorov was such a political activist, a democrat. He provided the room. And all the first fees were there. The Moscow deputy group arose. The moral authority there was Andrey Dmitrievich Sakharov. There we regularly sat up late, preparing for the congress that was supposed to open in May 1989. We discussed all sorts of different tactical options.
In addition, of course, we sent messengers and received guests from other territorial deputy groups. First of all, the connection was established with Leningraders. Then they were still Leningraders, not the St. Petersburg. The Baltic states, and Ukrainians, and people from other regions came to us. But the core remained a Moscow group. Then, by the way, for the first time I heard the political doctrine of Sakharov, which somehow after midnight even a little awarded during our debate. And then he said at the end of the following phrase: “Listen, I, unlike all of you, is a novice politician, you can say, young. But it seems to me that the most correct tactics are the next. No one knows how much this thaw will last - a week, two. Believe my experience, you can turn it in one hour.”
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Nikolai Ilyich, you became famous for your winged expressions, with folk humor performances. How do you remember your very first performance on this forum?
Nikolai Travkin : The very first performance, when the first organizational assembly was not only interregional, but wider - before the congress. He led, in my opinion, Lukyanov. I remember that I acted with issues of benefits. And he seemed to me the most important.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : privileges?
Nikolai Travkin : Yes. This is the abolition of those benefits that were present at the license plate. Why was it called an interregional group? In theory, this is an opposition. Why was the word "opposition" not present? At one of the first meetings, Sakharov spoke and said that the word "opposition" should be present. We must openly say that we are the opposition. This was the entire interregional group met with such fear and in hostility! We are not an opposition. The opposition is there, and we are from different regions, so we are interregional. It is today, turning the head back that the interregional group, they knew how to build a market economy, democratic societies. Nothing of the kind! And we were going to build, and Yeltsin in the first performances in the interregional group told how to build fair socialism. That the socialism that Gorbachev offers with a human face will not decisively build it, and we will be decisively. Even an interregional group with extreme, like, positions did not think about capitalism.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Yuri Boldyrev recalls his very first speech at the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR.
Yuri Boldyrev : I recently sent me the video of my first performance at the congress. It was short, simple about the fact that not everyone would be able to speak, and the voter has the right to know what we were doing here. Therefore, let's enter a fixed vote. And, in general, there was nothing special in my proposal, but the reaction of the Secretary General Gorbachev was indicative that this was an attempt to take our congress the wrong way. And then he begins to consider those who for the option proposed by the Presidium, who are against and abstained. Imagine a hall of 2250 people, and the head of state on his head believes who is against it! Can you imagine the scale of insanity?! And so he counted, I don’t remember, a 50 or 70 person who is against or abstained. These are those who are against the transformation of this 2250 people into Khural, who will simply shout "approval!" Because all very different people gathered at the congress, with very different views on everything that happened later, with a very different role. For many of them, the Congress of People's Deputies was not the only peak of life, a peak. These are all very different people, but who did not want to be a dancer, did not want to be a corps de ballet.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : When did you feel like an opposition?
Nikolai Travkin : Of course, in the center of the interregional group and around whom it was going Yeltsin. It is clear that the opposition of Yeltsin was the capture of power, a personal attitude to Gorbachev, resentment and anything. What to do next - no one thought. It seems to me that in the interregional group there was no person who could say so step -by -step - how to move from today, and you can’t live like that, how to live? How to make this transition? No one knew. Further - the concentration of the interregional group was around Yeltsin. Crazy popularity! Who could see a sane against Yeltsin? And tomorrow Yeltsin in your district will say that you are a retrograde. Voters tend you there. When we reproach with a lack of democracy of opponents, we somehow forget that any structure created by us or opponents of these autocrats is built on the same autocracy rules. It existed. This was present in the interregional group.
The gloss of the opposition came from two people-from Afanasyev, who directly said that the overthrow of the Communist Party, the renunciation of Gorbachev’s power, the 6th article and about the same Sakharov. Two people who called a spade their names. At first it caused a fright. Then it sounded within the walls of the Congress of People's Deputies. They did not take anyone and did not abandon in the cold, there were no arrests. The next day, this word began to firmly enter into use.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : It was in those days that the legal opposition of communist power arose, recalls Sergey Stankevich.
Sergey Stankevich : Sakharov tactics worked. For 13 days of the first congress of people's deputies, we had another country, and we had the first legal democratic opposition in the conditions of the Soviet Union. Before that, the dissidents were forced to work in a semi -underground or just underground, and this was a legal political opposition. And it was called the interregional deputy group. The core was the Moscow group of deputies. The Leningrad group joined her, the Balts joined. The result was such an MDG.
The moment of creating this very interregional deputy group was associated with the following. Almost all of the democrats lit up at that time were not elected to the Supreme Council, including Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin. And as if the question arose, since we are not allowed to work on real laws, then nothing needs to be abandoned, we proclaim the immediate creation of the opposition, and we will oppose what is happening, the majority that has developed during the elections to the Supreme Council. Then the famous phrase was Yuri Afanasyev about the aggressively obedient majority. But what is opposed to this aggressively obedient majority is the newly formed opposition.
Nikolai Travkin : I am forced to oppose the people I am respected, if not friends. No one forbade the deputy, if he is not a member of the Supreme Council, to engage in legislative activities. Moreover, I was not a member of the Supreme Council, but I can work and receive a salary there, as well as a member of the Supreme Council, in the local government committee. Yes, I can’t vote at the Supreme Council, but all the work on bills - for God's sake! The doors were not closed to lawmaking.
The main failure of the interregional deputy group is that it has encouraged all of Russia, that you can change everything, make a wonderful life without your participation. Your task is that we would be chosen, and we will do everything for you. The people sat at the TVs and said-they sent to remove the CPSU, the 6th article, and then to remove the state plan, etc. Make us happiness. And the interregional group drove into the head of voters that she would make them happy without their participation. Then it went. This is probably the main fault of the first democrats, deputies. And once in expectations, voters were deceived, and a negative attitude towards democracy itself began. The interregional group, first of all, was supposed to inject the brains of citizens that your efforts are needed. She was supposed to work not on bills, how to quickly remove Gorbachev and not to fight him, but on the creation of such structures that would help to develop local government. The interregional group firmly believed that the main thing is to remove Gorbachev. We will come to power and do everything! The Democrats had no thoughts in the brains-but how to remove this infantilism below?! What mechanisms need to be turned on so that people turn into citizens! This is where the miss.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Gennady Burbulis believes that 25 years ago Russia was capable of spiritual production.
Gennady Burbulis : Social reality, injured society is not a doomed, not fatal history of Russia. There are no more or less it. She is always there. 25 years ago we were capable of spiritual production. Today it has changed a little in form and content. After all, the ideal of MDG was never to lose heart, never lowering his hands, never losing our fraternity, allies.
Nikolai Travkin : The amazing ability of Gennady Eduardovich, when he says, you hear. I finished talking, you think - what did he talk about? Boris Nikolaevich listened to him as well. As he begins to explain to Boris Nikolaevich, how to do what to do, he sits and cannot break away. Then Gennady Eduardovich closes his mouth, nothing besieges in his head. What is the spiritual brotherhood? One country, only people. The only thing the MDG members were different was still personalities. The gray man could not break through. Having gathered together, this gave a special glow to the interregional group itself. But there was no uniform kinship of the spiritual, worldview, and it could not be.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Yuri Boldyrev recalls that the interregional group tried to build relations with all political forces.
Yuri Boldyrev : MDG has never been an anti -communist group. These were not anti -community, they were very different people with a very different worldview. They were united by only one thing that were strong, independent, real people who are aware of their responsibility to those who sent them, and did not want to dance in the corps de ballet. That's all! And among them there were people of left-handed, right, and Russian-shovinistic, any views. But this is a worthy team. These are different strong independent people, which remained, what is their value.
Unfortunately, history moves in cycles, waves. The periods are being replaced by the heroes, when independent bright personalities are needed, unfortunately, periods come from periodically when not just servants, but courteous flatterers are needed, we need silent, often gray mice, etc. But the story does not end. We will hope that some new stages will demand new heroes, and these heroes will be your children and grandchildren who can be realized in some kind of public-state activity, and not necessarily die immediately, like cannon fodder.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Why are there no equal to your generation of politicians?
Nikolai Travkin : This is a tragedy, this is a disaster. We say - new heroes, new bright personalities must appear. God forbid! As soon as a new hero appears, a new bright person, people again forget that they should somehow move and wait for him to do beautifully. Putin down! Navalny will come and make you happiness, but nothing depends on you. So we will shy away from the hero to the hero. The fewer heroes on the political scene, the faster ordinary people will take up the brains.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : The Interregional Group managed to develop an alternative to the Communist Party of the platform, recalls Sergey Stankevich.
Sergey Stankevich : In the summer of 1990, the MDG has actually developed an alternative to the CPSU platform. Then they gathered in the House of Cinema. There was a full hall. Having distributed in sections, they wrote and approved the platform, in fact for the first time in a compressed form, representing the CPSU alternative and socialism, which then still existed and was not going to leave the stage. The most interesting, I recently watched this document again, the main disputes were not on the economy (it was clear to us that the market economy was needed) and not on the construction of the parliament (everything was also clear there), and just the fate of the Soviet Union caused the main disputes. There were discussions here. There were different projects, but the two main projects - the Sakharovsky Constitution (Sakharov was sure that the USSR would remain), and Galina Vasilievna Starovoyova had the most radical proposal. She was a specialist just in interethnic relations. Her project sounded as follows that there will be a federal core of several republics. Surely, she believed, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, perhaps Kazakhstan, will be, someone else is a federal core, and then the joining republics will be on a confederate basis. This agreement was the most radical. He was criticized precisely because not only federal relations were allowed.
Vladimir Kara-Murza : Nikolai Ilyich, when did you start thinking about the creation of a democratic party that later arose?
Николай Травкин : В принципе, съезд, Межрегиональная группа уже подталкивало, что нужна организация общесоюзная, организация с нормальной общественно-политической дисциплиной. Иначе как можно с таким монстром как КПСС соревноваться?! How?! Люди организованные есть, партийная вертикаль. Они могут мобилизовать в любом месте эти партийные батальоны и т. д. Как это можно сделать в виде движения? Поэтому я и доказывал, что как движение мы ничего не добьемся. Надо создавать партию. Это сразу было принято в штыки всеми, в т. ч. Сергеем Борисовичем – партии свое отжили, движение более широкое, люди могут быть разные, 2-3 целевые установки общие, а дальше 100 цветов расцветают, сколько угодно мнений. Этим движением мы добьемся благоденствия. Я начал создавать партию. Она создавалась как Демократическая партия СССР. Пока она создавалась, рухнул Союз. Поэтому регистрировалась она уже и начала действовать как ДПР – Демократическая партия России.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Один из сопредседателей Межрегиональной группы Юрий Афанасьев вспоминает, что многие жители страны возлагали серьезные надежды на эту группу.
Юрий Афанасьев : Собственно говоря, все мы жили надеждой. На нас смотрели все, что мы, в конце концов, выразим каким-то образом эти чаяния или откликнемся как-то. Но вот в какой мере нам это удалось? Получилось ли это? This is a very big question. Собственно говоря, для меня теперь уже это не вопрос. Нам не удалось это сделать. Поэтому мы посеяли иллюзии. Люди на нас смотрели с надеждой, а мы не удовлетворили этот запрос.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : А вы как считаете, Николай Ильич?
Николай Травкин : В чем главный промах Межрегиональной группы? Юрий Николаевич говорит, что главный промах – мы не смогли удовлетворить надежд. А я говорю, что главный промах, что мы подпитывали эти надежды, а они изначально были бессмысленны. Сверху изменится власть, а дальше, не меняя страну, не меняя отношение граждан ни к чему, вдруг наступит это счастье?! То, что мы подпитывали эти надежды, это было вредно.
А с другой стороны, что значит – не смогли оправдать. Межрегиональная группа пришла к власти. Только она пришла к власти уже в России. Была победа демократов. Если бы демократы не победили, не избрали бы Ельцина председателем Президиума.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Но спецслужбы не сразу пришли к власти.
Николай Травкин : После Ельцина пришел Путин.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Как они вообще проникли? В МДГ не было работников спецслужб.
Николай Травкин : Этого никто не знает. Власть была с двумя лицами. Борис Николаевич и его ближний круг. Это тот круг, который вокруг него был как первого секретаря обкома, как кандидата в члены Политбюро, начиная от помощников и кончая руководителями администраций. Это одно лицо власти. Second. А что делать-то? Ну, мы много написали деклараций, а дальше власть взяли. Что-то надо делать теперь в России. Единственная команда, которая внятно могла что-то объяснить, даже не команда, а человек – это был Гайдар, который не только объяснял, куда мы идем, а еще и как он будет идти. С самого начала Гайдар говорил, что ему нужна сильнейшая политическая поддержка.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Успех Межрегиональной группы базировался на громких именах, полагает Сергей Станкевич.
Сергей Станкевич : В МДГ было очень много, как сейчас бы сказали, статусной интеллигенции. Там было десятка два одних академиков. Там были видные писатели, художники, поэты и прозаики. Это Красная книга нашей культуры. Кроме того, конечно, там были профессионалы юристы, профессионалы экономисты. Максимум того, что хотела Межрегиональная депутатская группа как альтернативы – это построения варианта рыночного, социально-ориентированного государства и очень поэтапной эволюции от коммунистического режима к этому государству. Настаивали на поэтапности, на постепенности, критиковали радикалов, в т. ч. встречаясь с ними на митингах.
Большая надежда была на Горбачева. С Горбачевым был короткий роман. Поначалу мы считали, что он как коммунист-реформатор должен сделать главную работу по трансформации социализма в какую-то рыночную структуру, демократическую структуру. А дальше можно уже развивать что-то. Но первоначально основная работа должна быть на Горбачеве и группе коммунистов-реформаторов. Поэтому им надо помогать, в т. ч. и оппонированием, не давая им скатиться назад, не давая их в обиду реакционерам. Продолжался этот роман с Горбачевым, в основном, до января 1991 года, до событий в Литве и Латвии.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Вы быстро разочаровались в Михаиле Сергеевиче?
Николай Травкин : Я в нем не разочаровался до сегодняшнего дня. Я считаю, что как фигура реформаторская, конечно, Горбачев выше Ельцина. Мы Ельцину приписываем свободы, все это горбачевские. Вспомните, когда "Взгляд" появился, "Московские новости", "Огонек" и т. д. Мало того, это была свобода 100-процентная. Журналист может выражать свое мнение, издание и телепрограмма – свое мнение. И им зарплату платило государство. Потом появился собственник, и уже собственник заменил цензора. Мы стали говорить – рынок, конкуренция, Березовский и Гусинский, а в середине будет истина. А при Горбачева даже государственные СМИ получали свободу.
Я убежден, что главная ошибка тогдашней оппозиции, в лице Межрегиональной группы, и особенно сегодняшней – это революционизм в ожидании быстрых перемен, желание сделать быстрые перемены и зубодробительная критика оппонента. Нельзя в России сделать ничего без власти снизу. Хочется, не хочется, но если ты думаешь не только о своем месте в политике, а думаешь о том, чтобы что-то сделать хорошее и нормальное в стране, ты обязан, стиснув зубы, найти тот кусок работы, который согласна делать и власть, и ты как оппозиционер. Пусть это 10% от всей работы – делайте ее. Без сотрудничества с властью – только революция. Одну революцию мы сегодня наблюдаем – это когда общество и страна откидывается на несколько витков назад. Никакая революция не улучшает.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Сергей Станкевич не разделяет сегодняшнего пессимизма своих коллег по МДГ.
Сергей Станкевич : Разочарований частных много, конечно. Разочарование в том, что не случилось много нужных для нас реформ, что Россия осталась недореформированной. Демократическое государство осталось недостроенным. Конкурентной, электоральной демократии не возникло и т. д. Вот такого рода частных разочарований по отдельным направлениям и институтам немало. Но я убежден, что мы вышли из исторического тупика, в котором находились в начале 90-х годов, и получили шанс все-таки построить нормальную страну. А то, что это займет гораздо больше времени, чем хочется отдельным демократам и либералам, ну, значит, займет. В России историческое время течет медленно.
Поскольку все-таки этот демократический, рыночный строй не мог вызреть в недрах старого, он фактически строился с чистого листа, да еще в столь драматических обстоятельствах, я думаю, что 25 лет это не так уж много. Как герой из фильма "Москва слезам не верит" говорил: "А вот встретимся с вами через 20 лет!". Вот я готов произнести эту фразу. Еще лет 20-25, я думаю, что, наконец, можно будет говорить о том, что у нас вполне современное, демократическое, социально-ответственное государство. Осталось только дожить.
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Я считаю, что исторически проделан важнейший опыт вашим поколением политиков. What do you think?
Николай Травкин : То, что опыт – несомненно. Это опыт не только первой оппозиции во власти, появление узаконенного другого мнения, это опыт взаимодействия власти и оппозиции. Кстати, Горбачев терпел оппозицию. Он терпел. Он понимал, что за этой оппозицией есть очень серьезная поддержка людей, может быть, даже большинство. Когда демократы пришли к власти, этого терпения не было. Что такое 1993 год? Это тоже конфликт между властью и оппозицией. Why? Когда у власти был Горбачев, значит, не дошло до таких физических столкновений, а когда демократы пришли к власти, появился 1993 год. Because…
Владимир Кара-Мурза : Люди разные.
Николай Травкин : Люди разные. Нет внутри страны и не было человека или группы людей с готовыми решениями. Причем, эти решения базировались бы на каком-то цивилизованном демократическом опыте. Не было!