Are you ashamed of Russia?

Vladimir Kara-Murza: In domestic history, periods often happen when it becomes ashamed of Russia. So it was ashamed of Alexander Herzen, when Nicholas the first introduced troops into Hungary, and Alexander the Second to Poland. So it was a shame for our fathers when the Soviet Union introduced tanks to Prague. We remember the song of Alexander Galich: “Citizens, the Fatherland in danger, our tanks on a foreign land ...” So it was ashamed of my generation when the military from the General Staff lied that they did not hit the South Korean Boeing on September 1, 1983. And so ashamed today, when we hear awkward not even excuses, but clumsy attacks and accusations by the aggressor, whom the whole world condemned.

We will discuss the position of the intelligentsia in the situation today with the writer Vladimir Ilyushenko , in the 90s a member of the Commission on Clear President Yeltsin, and Pavel Kudyukin , the former Deputy Minister of Labor in the Gaidar government, the author of the appeal "to prevent a military conflict between Russia and Ukraine."

How did you react to the events of August 1968, when the countries of the Warsaw bloc entered Prague?

Vladimir Ilyushenko: I remember this time very well. The main feeling that seized me and those who were close to me is just a feeling of burning shame! Although I well remember how people grabbed newspapers in the kiosks and approved this event. That is, they exactly the same believed the official interpretation of what happened, which was presented as a saving mission, which would benefit the fraternal people. I do not know how appropriate it will be, but then I wrote a poem, responding to the invasion of Prague. Called "envy".

Belinsky is exhausted. Russia is blind!

A country of idiots, not people - a crowd!

He is again frenzy, and his voice rings:

Well, yes, atheists, but the sense? They

They don’t see, they don’t hear, they don’t know where.

But I will give him from above the prophetic gift.

His soul is ignited by faith.

Down with half measures! May the wall collapse!

The riots are inevitable! He burns to revenge

With great hope in the future.

Among the uncomfortable, censors, we are languishing,

He envies fiercely his grandchildren.

As soon as Russia will rush for a hundred years,

Like the Messiah they will give dawn

They will lead the world, save, save

Science and they believe them to mate.

And I live and sing songs

In a cold barn, in a state -owned paradise,

In his paradise, in a crystal dream.

Take a look, a visionary - not the same!

Wakes up censorship, and there is nothing to breathe,

And he wants to become a champion of the shrine.

And there is a polytheure in return for the liturgy,

Both the streets of gloomy, and in the souls are not a zgi.

Cities are silent under the general roof,

They don’t see, they don’t hear, I don’t know where.

I strive for the night to seal my eyes

And time threatens that he will go back.

I am also exhausted. Russia is blind.

The country of idiots, not people - a crowd.

Above Prague, overwhelming smoke over the truth.

Do not envy their grandchildren ...

This was then born a poem that answered the spirit of the feelings that I then experienced.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Pavel, you were political prisoners in the 80s, under Andropov, just when the South Korean Boeing was shot down. Do you feel similar feelings today?

Pavel Kudyukin: First of all, I, of course, experience deep sorrow in the dying. For those who died in this shot down plane, for those who die in hostilities in the Donbass. Many people who are completely non -involved and innocent become involuntary victims of this unleashed strange war, a hybrid war. The second feeling, yes, deep awkwardness causes very clumsy and stupid moves both Russian diplomacy and official media. Indeed, excuses are worse than self -enforcement. Yes, we still do not know with confidence how the plane was shot down. It remains a very small chance that he crashed for some reason, although the chances are very small. And it remains to be hoped for the fact that, nevertheless, the international commission will gain access to the place of the aircraft falling, black boxes will be found, the same commission was again taken intact and safety. The intelligence data of the National Security Agency and the CIA of the United States will be disclosed, which monitor the situation in Radioir, on the territory of the conflict, and conduct satellite tracking. That is, it will become clear where the launch was made, and perhaps it will even become clear that it was specifically launched, whether it was “beech”, “S-200” or “S-300”, these are different anti-aircraft complexes. And it is very possible that the circle of those who could launch this unfortunate missile is even more narrowed.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Today we all convey from hand to hand the poem of the poet Andrei Orlov, Orlushi, that it is a shame to be Russian. And once in 1995, Bulat Okudzhava in a similar situation, when the war in Chechnya began, wrote the poem "there are no more Russians." Let's listen to him.

I am Russian sweet from long prose

And in Pushkin’s verses.

I am lazy to my heart, and laughter, and tears,

And bitterness on the lips.

When they sit in the kitchen of the old

In the power of strange thoughts,

Their bitter rock, called by the guitar,

Mocking and gloomy.

When the crowd shouts below and groans,

What is a proud mind and honor?

There are few of them that nothing costs

Count on the fingers.

My heart is faith and patience.

Belief and rage ...

Who knew that he would be a terrible awakening

And outside the window is a landscape?

Well, another century. All myths are dispelled.

The minds are defeated.

Wherever you look - all "Scythians, Scythians, Scythians ...

Their darkness, and darkness, and darkness. "

And with sadness I go through this land,

Where is anger and finger,

And it seems that there are no more Russians,

And instead of them - a crowd.

Vladimir, has a split disappeared among the Russian intelligentsia today?

Vladimir Ilyushenko: She has long been split, and what happened in recent months, all these events in Ukraine split her even more. And it so happened that those people who had very similar views suddenly moved away from each other in the basis of the attitude to the events in Ukraine. Here is the latest story - this is what happened to the "Civil Platform". After all, people, its components, mainly intellectuals, turned out that most of these people took an official point of view, supported the "Crimean" and aggression against Ukraine. And it was on this basis that Irina Prokhorova, who headed the “civilian platform” in many ways, decided to leave her. Precisely because she does not agree with the opinion of the majority.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Listen to a member of the Commission on pardon to President Yeltsin, the artistic director of the theater at the Nikitsky Gate of Mark Rozovsky , who believes that this war is a battle between the past and the future.

Mark Rozovsky: It is obvious that this is not just a conflict, it is a combat meeting of the past and future, it is a serious battle that will have enormous historical consequences for both Russia and Ukraine. War is a trouble, it is grief, it is a frank, undisguised violence. I, as a man of Russian culture, feel shame, because I am an opponent of war and violence. All wars are unfair! Infinite people are dying in these wars, war is an aggravated game of politicians.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: What explains the ideological split between intellectuals?

Pavel Kudyukin: Such a division is not the first time in our history. Herzen wrote about the reaction of Russian society to the Polish uprising of 1863-64, when people of liberal, seemingly mood, were infected by what Herzen called patriotic syphilis. This incomprehensible war was beneficial to the regime, and he somehow successfully beat the struggle against fascism, although the word "fascism" is used incorrectly in a historical sense, just as a kind of curse. The Nazis are called politicians in a neighboring country, then those in their country who protest against war and support for separatists in the Donbass. The feeling of "ours beat" disables the diet and makes you be guided by emotions. The tragic events in Odessa on May 2 met a very different response in Ukrainian society. Some part of the Ukrainians screamed: this is what they need, burn colorades - and this could not but cause the appropriate reaction. The tendency of exhausting the opposite side is a terrible trend. Blood brothers - in language, in history - suddenly begin to be called completely ugly terminology: dill, Maidan ... But on the other hand - coloras, quilted jackets and so on. This causes disgust, bewilderment and pain. It is even strange that events were not so ruined in our country.

Vladimir Ilyushenko: I think that the patriotic position is that a person wants good to his homeland, wants its development and prosperity. And what we call patriotism is not involved in love for our homeland, but on hatred of strangers. And in general, recently, a drift has been going on towards non -ootototilitarism, the search for enemies, the "fifth column" and so on. The intelligentsia is a very blurry category. For a long time, this understood the part of a society that is busy with mental work. Dahl said that the intelligentsia is a developed and educated part of society. But is there enough education? I have no doubt that Dmitry Kiselev or Sergey Markov received a good education, these are educated people, but are they intellectuals? I think not. For the intelligentsia, the main moral and spiritual component is. Dmitry Sergeyevich Likhachev wrote a whole article about this in due time and published in the "New World" - "On the Russian Intelligentsia". He said that the basic principle of intelligence is intellectual freedom as a moral category, an intelligent person is not free only from his conscience and his thoughts.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Mark Rozovsky is sure that only negotiations will stop this war.

Mark Rozovsky: I'm waiting for these negotiations! With this idea, we can interfere in the affairs of Ukraine and influence! We, America, the European Union. Everything else is visibility. So far, as Fedor Mikhailovich said, someone will build the happiness of mankind on the tears of the child, and now we are talking about blood, while this doctrine will triumph, Russian culture, people who speak the great Russian language, people of Ukrainian culture, speaking the great Ukrainian language, we must all unite against this war and inhumanity. Curses to the war! Fold the weapon immediately! This is our requirement in the name of children and in the name of our conscience!

Pavel Kudyukin: Now everyone is trying to take responsibility. The level of responsibility is really very different. No one expected that heavy anti -aircraft complexes could be used from the separatists that can shoot down aircraft at an altitude of 10 thousand meters. Could the separatists use these complexes, from where they got them - it seems to be more reason to suspect that this unfortunate shot was made on their part. Everything needs to be understood. The problem is that the leaders of these self -proclaimed republics have nowhere to retreat, they would declare an amnesty unjustified humanism. Leaders must go on trial, possibly international. In Ukraine, they will be awaited at best for life imprisonment, and in Russia, such a feeling, they are not very waiting for them. There is no one hand in the Donbass with which it would be possible to negotiate, here you need to start very painstaking work on negotiating literally with each individual field commander. For peace, you can even find your Kadyrov in the Donbass, which will be ready to cooperate with the central authority.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Why does our power write with such persistence to opponents of the regime of those who indicate her mistakes?

Vladimir Ilyushenko: This is a long -term and even centuries -old tradition. The authorities do not want to listen to criticism. Our power is cunning and owns various tactical techniques, but as for the strategy, it is no good. Strategy is a calculation of several moves in advance, and here the instant reaction to the situation that has arisen is to recapture. And here all the means are good. But this hits the power itself, and the reality is such that you can’t change the situation with tactical techniques. And I believe that the case of the intelligentsia is an enlightenment. Enlightenment means to introduce light to where darkness is. And the intelligentsia should do this. It is she who is able to formulate and protect not only her own, but also nationwide interests, and she can do it. She should not be shy, she should dare and not think about what will happen tomorrow in response to one or another position, but simply act in the right direction.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Maybe it would be more appropriate to gather not a security advice, but a council for culture, the Human Rights Council and listen to the voice of the intelligentsia?

Pavel Kudyukin: Yes, you can collect the Security Council, but with another agenda of the day - not about mythical threats, but how Russia is constructively interfering in the situation in Ukraine, using its pressure levers, to force the side with which Russia is associated with negotiations. This issue should be discussed at the Security Council - how to block the border, stop supplying "polite green men" and weapons to the territory of Ukraine.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: During the time of Yeltsin, the authorities did not go as far as today as today?

Vladimir Ilyushenko: She didn’t go so far, but she created the prerequisites for what happened in our time, after the completion of the “dashing 90s”. The rejection of the decisive condemnation of the imperial communist, great -power ideology, the rejection of lustration, from the publication of documents denouncing inhuman power - without this it was impossible to move on to real constructive things. Reforms were partly declared and even begun, but they did not end. And especially the Chechen war and what followed it, laid the foundations of that cynicism and permissiveness, the incredible arrogance that our society is now facing.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: And not so fantastic probably seem in the West a version about explosions of houses in the fall of 1999, when they were attributed to the current government.

Pavel Kudyukin: Indeed, after what is happening in Ukraine, you somehow begin to believe even in the most implausible versions at first glance. And the authorities do not look further a step forward. I do not want to believe in such things, but life forces.