Anti -Soviet Russophile Adam Mikhnik

Former dissident, editor -in -chief of the "SETSERY newspapers" - about the Polish path, love for Russia and dislike for Putin

Radio Liberty continues a series of publications dedicated to the 25th anniversary of the fall of the communist regime in Poland. Our interlocutors were ex-presidents of Poland Lech Valens and Alexander Kvasnevski and architect of radical economic reforms Leshk Balcerovich . Today, visiting the RS is one of the leaders of the anti-communist movement in the 1980s, the historian and journalist, founder and editor-in-chief of the “newspaper Vypers” Adam Mikhnik .

- Mr. Mikhnik, are you satisfied with how Poland looks after 25 years of reform? Did you fight for such Poland?

- Well, this is the most stupid question that they constantly ask now! You know, no one can be fully pleased with the world in which he lives. But, of course, how Poland has developed over the past 25 years is a huge success. We can say that our country was not so successful and had no such chances of 400 years! This is the achievement of my generation, because we began to create an opposition to the Communists from almost scratch. There were few of us at the University of Warsaw - no more than 20 people. And today Poland is a free country. When asked if I am satisfied with her, I will answer this way: the fact that she is good is satisfied, but bad - unhappy.

-When you and colleagues in the dissident movement were in prisons in the 70s, did you think that the changes would come so soon, in 1989?

- No no...

- Now some say that all this could be foreseen ...

- Yes, nothing could be foreseen. This is all nonsense! I personally believed that some changes are inevitable. But the fact that I will live to the fall of the communist regime, that the Soviet Union will fall apart, and Poland will become a democratic, open country with a multi -party political system, where they respect the rights and freedoms of a person where there is no censorship, that we will be a member of NATO and the European Union - neither I, no one believed in it at all! If someone tells you that it was clear, then this person is a storyteller.

- You say that you are satisfied with what succeeded, and dissatisfied with what did not work out. But in Poland, they often say that democracy in the country is an unripe, political system imperfect ...

We were forced to take accelerated democracy courses - to master what other countries studied 150 years in two decades

- No, I do not think that the political system is bad. I would say this: we were forced to take accelerated courses of democracy, that is, in two decades to master what other countries studied 150 years. Therefore, of course, we still have a post -Soviet mentality with many features that have been formed during the time of lack of freedom. We thought in categories that did not allow compromises, and democracy is just the art of compromise, the ability to live together. Then everything was clear: we are good, and our enemies were bad. Now the black and white scheme is no longer working, because you need to talk with a variety of people, take into account various interests, personal characteristics and an image of thinking.

- Some criticize the Polish "round table" of 1989 , saying that the Communists could then press more ...

- And what would happen?

- I don’t know, maybe Poland would have developed faster ...

-Sorry, but now Poland is slowly developing due to the fact that we did not hang Yaruzelsky on the lantern? This is nonsense and complete idiocy! Democratic Poland is for everyone. For those who were in the Communist Party, too. At a certain moment, we had 2.5 million people in the Communist Party. What then, it was necessary for them to arrange an apartheid? To deprive civil rights? This is absurd! This would mean to expel the devil with the devil, treat the plague with the help of cholera. You can’t do this.

Adam Mikhnik

-Ex-president Alexander Kvasnevsky said in an interview with Radio Liberty recently that the deceased Wojciech Yaruzelsky would have to give the Nobel Prize of the world. Do you agree?

- As for Nobel, this is rather an exaggeration ... Kvasinevsky loves to use such metaphors. However, the merits of General Yaruzelsky are undeniable. If not for his political will and sequence, then we would be so calm - without broken windows, barricades, gallows or executions - would not have left the dictatorship. His role was unambiguously positive in this. And in the early 80s he was a guarantor for Moscow-there is Yaruzelsky in Poland, which means that you can not worry. On the other hand, he kept in the depth of our law enforcement ministries - the army and security services. They could go to provocations in relation to the opposition, but they were still afraid of him, and therefore behaved restrainedly.

- How do you now evaluate martial law introduced in 1981 by Yaruzelsky?

-After so many years ... You know, disputes about whether the introduction of martial law was a mistake will continue in Poland as long as the dispute about the Warsaw uprising or other national liberation movements. My assessment of martial law is ambiguous. I was arrested then, so it’s hard for me to evaluate it positively. On the other hand, I am aware that Poland undoubtedly threatened Soviet intervention. I talked about this with the Soviet leaders - Yakovlev, Shevardnadze and with Gorbachev himself. They were convinced that if in Poland events continued to develop in this way, then the intervention would be inevitable, because through Poland there was a path from Russia to Europe, then the Kremlin would not give control over it.

- In Poland, especially among the right -wing politicians and publicists, the conviction is widespread that you and your newspaper have a huge impact on what is happening in the country. Is that so?

- Hope. We would like it to be like that.

- They also say that you are Russophile. This is true?

I am a real anti -Soviet Russophile, yes, this is true

- I myself say about myself: I am a real anti -Soviet Russophile (this is the name of the book of Adam Mikhnik, published in 2007 in Russia. - RS ) , yes, this is true.

- How is it?

- I just really love Russian culture, literature. I have many friends in Moscow and St. Petersburg. I know by heart a lot of Russian verses - Mandelstam, Pasternak, Pushkin, Tsvetaeva, Akhmatova, Brodsky. This is a genius, and there is nothing strange that I am a Russophile. But I am Ukrainophile too.

- Nothing has changed lately, if we talk about your feelings in relation to Russia and Russians?

- Of course, this needs to be separated. Stalin is not Russia, Brezhnev is not Russia, but Putin is also not Russia!

- What do you think about what is happening now in Russia? Does it go further towards dictatorship and totalitarianism?

- Totalitarianism may not, but, undoubtedly, the totalitarian Stalinist rhetoric returned. There is no doubt that the domestic policy of the Russian regime will be tightened, but, in my opinion, the return to the totalitarianism of the Stalinist type is impossible. Indeed, in order to introduce such a regime, mass terror is necessary, and in today's world this is most likely impossible. Of course, in Russia there is this infection of Great Russian chauvinism, but using it for Putin would mean, as Russians say, to step on a rake. After receiving in the forehead, he himself will not know what to do.

Round Table meeting in Warsaw, 1989

- But most Russians support him ...

- This is today. But how long can you rejoice that Putin won Crimea, which no one defended? Six months? Year? Not to mention the fact that for the inhabitants of Crimea, all misfortunes are just beginning. After all, Moscow officials and KGBISTS now come there as captured land. The Crimeans still curse this moment of capture, because in Ukraine it was a hundred times calmer.

- The opposition in Russia is quite weak ...

- Very weak, yes ...

-But once you were weak, you were not enough ...

- Yes.

- What should happen for the situation in Russia to change? Is it possible at all?

- Do not make me a prophet, I'm only a historian! I am sure that the situation will change. There are no ways into the past, to totalitarianism, but for Russia there is another danger - collapse, chaos. Akhmatova said that in Russia, after the kannibals kings, vegetarians come to power. At the moment, Vladimir Vladimirovich has become a little cannibal. I saw this in Moscow during the Khodorkovsky process . It was scary. The only plus is that the process was open, and Khodorkovsky said what he wanted. But keeping a person in prison for 10 years due to personal revenge is scary.

- Or maybe the fact is that the West is just afraid of the collapse of Russia, so it does not press too much on it?

- Well, think for yourself: how can you not be afraid of the decay of the country, which is full of atomic weapons? Not surprising.

- A few words about Ukraine. Do you think Europe will no longer be the same after what is happening there now?

What Putin did in relation to Ukraine resembles Hitler’s actions in 1938 in relation to Czechoslovakia

- I don't know. Of course, Europe today is a well -fed and lazy consumption society. Everyone would like to live as an ordinary Frenchman, Italian or Spaniard lives. They protest there that things, they say, are bad and so on, but everything is not so scary. Our duty, and I do this, as far as I can, remind: what Putin did in relation to Ukraine resembles Hitler’s actions in 1938 in relation to Czechoslovakia . You cannot underestimate this. It is necessary to find mechanisms that will stop Putin. Of course, this will have its own economic and financial price, but what to do. A full -scale war, if, God forbid, it will begin, will be a much higher price.

-Poland was very active, at least at the beginning, was interested in the Ukrainian-Russian conflict. But the West-are you ready to pay at least some price there?

- Our duty is to remind you that we need to pay a certain price for this. But they will listen to us or not, I don’t know.

- To what extent, in your opinion, will events in Ukraine affect European policy?

-Europe and all of us should learn from our own mistakes, and not only old ones, but, for example, remember how Europe could not cope with the war in the Balkans in the 90s.

- Is it not surprising that, having access to the Internet, satellite television channels, such a large number of Russians believe in propaganda?

- Unfortunately, it is also difficult for me to understand this. This is called "chauvinistic fever." There are also such traditions in Poland. I always recall in this regard how the Poles in 1938 tore off part of Czechoslovakia , when Hitler entered there from the other side. There was euphoria, everyone was terribly rejoiced! Shovinism is a terrible infection. I spoke about this and wrote back in 1989: ethnic chauvinism is the last stage of communism, if you rephrase Lenin.

The first strip of one of the numbers of the "newspapers of the Vypers" with an appeal to release Yulia Tymoshenko (2012)

- In the West, they say from time to time that the Poles are mostly Russophobes, so you should not listen to them in terms of Russia. Is that so?

- If I said that there is not a single Russophobe in Poland, then it would be not true. But in general, the Polish foreign policy is rational. It is not Russophobic, but this does not mean that there are no Russophobes in Poland itself. And how can they not be if you take into account the last 250 years of our history! We are very carefully approaching situations in which the language of Great Russian chauvinism is heard. No one in Poland loves this. But do you think that I love Great Polish chauvinism? I can't stand it!

- I hope that this Polish chauvinism is less and less?

-In my opinion, it is still enough.

- How do you see the future of Ukraine?

- This is not quite a question for me. But I wish Ukraine to go in a Polish way. It will be a very difficult road with a huge number of obstacles. Much depends on the political elites, and they are weak in Ukraine, and they have no place to be strong there. But democracy is a system for everyone, for smart and demagogues. I hope that the mind will win, and Ukraine will take the path to democracy, market and Europe.

I hope that the mind will win, and Ukraine will take the path to democracy, market and Europe

-A few years ago, some events took place, or rather, gestures that could be interpreted as signs of Polish-Russian reconciliation-a visit to Poland Patriarch, then Putin. But nothing seems to have happened out of this. Is this reconciliation possible in general?

- Not only possible, but also necessary. But this will not be reconciliation with Putin. As for me, I personally do not need reconciliation, because I have as many friends in Moscow as in Warsaw. In Moscow, I feel at home. Moscow Democrats are my friends, and there are many of them.

- Well, finally - what would you wish the Russians?

- I would wish the Russians that their distinctive sign would be people like Herzen or Sakharov, and not such as Brezhnev and Putin.