Ukraine is part of Europe. But

We publish the final part of the conversation of the writer and journalist Igor Svinarenko with the Croatian diplomat and intellectual Bozho Kovachevich . In a friendly feast conversation, the interlocutors found out what the Serbs and Croats fought for, who spoke, practically in the same language, and compared the then war in Yugoslavia with today's events in the southeast of Ukraine, which are not yet decided to call the war.

See also:

Igor Svinarenko: Please explain to me about the language. So you say that Croatian was banned in Serbia.

BOOO KOVACHEVICH: Teaching in schools could not lead there on the Croatian!

Serbian, Croatian, Serbokhorvatsky was even earlier. But you and I recently have conversations with the Serb friendly - did you understand what he was saying? Was it comfortable for you? Or something cut your ear? Did you feel that it was someone else's language, the one in which he spoke?

Of course, I understood everything. But I also realized that this was not Croatian, not pure Croatian.

Well, let's say, not clean. And where is he, pure tongue? And our Moscow dialect is very different from, for example, Donskoy. It seems to me that there are more differences between these two dialects than between Serbian and Croatian languages. (Which I am not a big expert, but nevertheless).

This is true ... I will say more: between the official languages ​​of Serbia and Croatia, the difference is less than between some dialects of the Croatian language. By ear, you can distinguish the Croatian language from Serbian, but each Croat will understand the Serb - and vice versa. Moreover - by the way a person says, you will not know whether he is a Serb or Croat.

You finished me off. I have not increased understanding. So then they were forbidden in Voivodin? I can't figure it out.

Everything is not easy here. There are three main dialects in the Croatian - Shtokovsky, Kaykovsky and Chakovsky. This is the word "what". In one dialect, it will be “STO”, in the other “kai”, in the third “cha”.

And there are no more differences? Only these?

There are, of course, others. There are subgroups and other dialects inside these three dialects.

This is a population of a third of Moscow ... It’s not easy for you!

Not easy! In the 19th century, intellectuals of Croatia and Serbia decided to create one common South Slavic language.

And what assessment can we give today that venture, was there a meaning in it or not?

Well, they made such a combination ... In fact, the thought was good. They wanted to unite the South Slavic peoples! Who lived in different states-some in Austria-Hungary, others in Serbia and Montenegro. And then intellectuals came up with the establishment of general standards ... They began to do this. Much has succeeded! As a result, today the official Croatian is similar to the official Serbian.

Here! Finally you explained to me. And then everyone walks around the bush and they perform something science-like. We, foreigners, do not distinguish one language from another (sorry, do not be offended), and we can’t understand why you are breaking spears ... Okay, people are ready to kill each other for Russian or Ukrainian languages, which is also not very wise-but there is much more striking and fundamental than yours.

At the linguistic level, we have one language. But at the level of sociolinguistics - the languages ​​are different! They developed in different directions ...

What is it - this sociolinguistics? Somehow it is difficult for me. Of course you are a professor ... What are we talking about?

The basics of grammar are similar. But as for vocabulary and sometimes syntax, there are differences. But, of course, the Croats and Serbs understand each other.

In other words, these conversations about different languages ​​and about their infringement are, in my simple view, pure policy. Not linguistics. I, as you know, I am famous for my objectivity.

So I told you about the direction in which the language was developed in the 19th century. Now I'll tell you what was under the Communists. In 1967, our intellectuals signed a petition - they wanted to protect the Croatian language. Because certain circles in Serbia and the union authorities wanted to work on a single standard of language.

They wanted, I suppose it’s better.

And it seemed to us that the Serbs simply want to impose on us Serbian under the guise of a common Yugoslavsky. But they could not achieve this. There are many reasons. Yes, political power was concentrated in Serbia. But this republic has always been agrarian. Slovenia was the most economically developed. And the level of entrepreneurship was the highest in Croatia. Tourism developed here. Mostly Western Germans paid brands to the Croatian coast. And the whole currency went to Belgrade! The Croats resisted, I myself wanted to control the currency.

The currency was stronger than communism! Eche-he ... But the point is not only in the language and not how to share money. And in some deeper things. In general, we can say that the Serbs and Croats are fraternal peoples? What were they like that? And then they stopped? Or have they never been like that?

Uh ... Until 1991, Serbs and Croats never fought directly against each other. But I must say that in the First World War on the side of Austria -Hungary, both the Croats and the Serbs against the Serbs from Serbia fought. In the Second World War, there was already independent Croatia, which the Nazis ruled. The Serbian government was influenced by Germany. They also had racial laws, they killed Jews and gypsies.

Like Croats?

Yes, yes.

That is, we can say that these were fraternal peoples and they killed Jews together ...

They felt fraternal peoples before they began to live in one state. But after the First World War, a single state was created! In several tricks. When Austria-Hungary fell apart, the Slovenes, Croats and Bosnians created a common state-in today's Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia. And then it got involved in the kingdom of Serbia. All these peoples together decided that the state would be federal.

Federalization! Fashionable right now the word ...

But the Serbs, as the winners in the First World War, believed that they should be the main in this federation, that they should command all this united territory.

How strange everything is in this world! Russia lost the First World War, and Serbia-because of which Russia got involved in that war-won. Some kind of nonsense ...

Well, Austria-Hungary accused Serbia that she was to blame for the murder of Archduke. And Russia decided to protect its Orthodox friends.

I wanted to correct God - not friends but brothers, well, how to clarify. But what is now to clarify. Retroactively. Moreover, the term fraternal peoples reminds of the unpleasant, for wars, for example ... So I did not correct and said only:

... there was a decision.

Serbia is not the main thing. The relations of Russia and Germany were more important then. And, on the other hand, Germany and England. Both England and Russia were afraid that Germany would become too strong. I don't quite understand what Nikolai wanted ...

This is not very important now. The thing is the past. And the minds of Russia cannot understand - neither then nor now.

England wanted to stop the development of Germany ... And when at the end of the 19th century the Ottoman Empire fell apart, Austria-Hungary decided to annex Bosnia, which was previously under the Turks and then remained unattended. And in Bosnia there was the Mladobosniya movement (Gavrila Principle and others), which wanted to join Bosnia to Serbia.

As they are already ... Ali all. These people, who cover everything and redraw something, and kill.

Well, yes.

More about the parallels between our countries. If we talk about what is happening now ... I think the West made a mistake in Kyiv, supporting the forces that organized a coup and removed Yanukovych from power.

What does it mean - removed? Yes, he just escaped! And he could fight like Milosevich.

He did not control this rain.

Well, roughly speaking, I am glad - an independent branch of power, according to the Constitution. You, formalists, should not forget about it! But I'm talking about something else: if you are the president, so go fight like Castro. Or die with weapons in your hands, like Allende. And he ran away - everything, the topic is closed!

What is happening in Ukraine is very similar to what was in Croatia in the early 90s.

What am I talking about!

As for Ukraine, there is a big strategic game. Russia, as I understand it, cannot agree that NATO expand further east. The current government of Russia will never agree with this. And the second question is that the authorities of the Russian Federation are afraid that if democracy in Ukraine wins, then the color revolution will occur in Moscow.

Do you think this is likely?

I don’t know whether it is likely or not, but Putin is afraid of this.

And what do you think, Russian politicians did not study the experience of Yugoslavia?

Studied. But - nothing was removed from this. Miloshevich lost everything that he could lose ...

And the Russians, you think, did not draw conclusions from this ... I generally have the feeling that the Russian state bosses consider Milosevich a normal guy who simply did not succeed, well, he almost yanked. And they will do everything right - it seems to them.

Yes, yes! They probably still think that Miloshevich opposed America. And Russian politicians also resist her.

Are you generally a pro -American politician or what?

He laughs.

Well, not Promoskovsky.

No, I just try to understand what is happening.

Ah, that is, you are like me! But this is unlikely. Since, unlike me, you are a politician. And a European politician - he is today either for America with Israel, or for Hamas.

I'm not for Hamas. But I do not support America in everything. For Iraq - I do not support. That war was madness, in my opinion. It is clear with Afghanistan - there is Al Kaida.

But I do not understand. If you need to deal with Al Kaedy, so bomb Saudi Arabia, which finances terrorists. But the Americans did not do this, because the Saudis keep their money in the States.

They are allies. Yes, oil ...

They began to fight with Afghanistan because they were not fighting with Saudi Arabia. And something had to be done. The lost wallet began to look not where it was dropped, but under the lantern, because it is not so dark ... What is your forecast? Will the situation develop there further according to the Yugoslav scenario?

I think that before the crash of the aircraft was a chance that Russia would achieve some negotiations on the neutral status of Ukraine, that it would not enter NATO. It was real, such guarantees could be given. But after this attack, everything changed. I don’t know who shot down, probably mercenaries - but the responsibility lies in Russia. And she has exhausted the reserve of patience of the West. However, the West is not one, it is not monolithic, its different parts have their own interests, sometimes mutually exclusive. Europe began to develop quite independently. When there are no threats from Russia, Europe can develop. And the interest of the states is different: he is that Europe feels a threat from Russia. I believe that the United States provokes "Russia and Ukraine> to this conflict, incites it. But this does not mean that Russia is allowed to do everything that it wants! A mistake with this aircraft is simply unforgivable. This, as I said, Russia has exhausted the patience of the West.

In brackets, I note that your United Europe is not quite one. You created (well, the Croats came in later, you, strictly, did not create) a legal body that is not viable.

I partially agree with this. It is necessary to carry out the reform of the EU and agree on the interests of countries.

It seems to me that nothing will come of it, and everyone will scatter. By the way, I asked you many here: why are you going to the EU, ask the Germans or send donations to the poor - Greeks, Italians, Spaniards? As a rule, they answered me that this question did not occur to people ... My mental bracket closes. Let's go on. So you talked a lot about the war. And why didn’t you go to fight for a single and indivisible Croatia and all that?

I was the Secretary General of the first opposition party. I then offered the authorities to be appointed somewhere, sent to war, but they said: you need you in Zagreb.

Yes, yes. Such people, like, are needed in the rear. Von Zhirinovsky also wanted to war, but no one sends him, to her.

I think they simply did not trust me. Still, I was a representative of the opposition. Yes, I did not fight. But, nevertheless, the first president of Croatia decided to give me a medal for the war. Of course, I refused. He said "thank you", but explained that since I did not participate in the war, I can not accept the medal.

What a pure person you are. We would have such politicians! Have you been to or in Ukraine? I emphasize, not in Krai, but in Ukraine.

There was in Kyiv. At some conference. And there Kuchma awarded all the invited Kuchma! This is 2002 or 2003.

And you accepted!

Yes. But this is not for the war.

You ended with you. After lasting seven years. So, Russian with Ukrainians can come across a seven years, like you, that is, by 2021? It remains to bumble, to fight ... The world will come, will friendship return?

Don't know. It depends on how decisively the power in Russia will defend its interests. And how much the West is ready to invest in the continuation of this conflict. As far as I understand, Ukraine itself is not important for anyone - except, of course, Ukrainians.

But between the situation in the Donbass and in Gaza - do you see parallels? Shooting from residential quarters ... So that they bombed the hospital with return fire and killed the children. This is well sold in the information war.

I believe that it is not entirely easy to compare here. Russia supports militias, pays for these mercenaries, within the framework of its strategic game. In my opinion, now the militias were equal to the army. And the forces of Israel and the gas sector are not comparable at all. Yes, there is a Hamas terrorist organization, and it must be appropriately treated. But the problem of terrorism is not solved by military force, it can only be solved by police operations.

But how can the police fight rackets?

I don't know. You can use special forces. But the defeat of houses, schools and hospitals The problem of terrorists is not solved.

Here you go! It's nice to talk to a smart person who, too, like me, does not understand anything. This, at least, raises self -esteem!

The drink is over, it was not enough to cut 20 km to the night store, it was not enough enthusiasm for this - and it became clear: it was time to say goodbye.

Until new meetings!