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War in Chechnya and in the Donbass - what time is worse, which

Vladimir Putin told Barrosa that he could take Kyiv in two weeks. Pavel Grachev promised Yeltsin to take Grozny in two hours.

Military journalist, former soldier Arkady Babchenko and member of the Presidential Council of Human Rights Sergey Krivenko about the war in Chechnya and in the Donbass - similarities and differences. Nameless soldiers and an unnamed war. What time is worse, and which praise?

The program "A person has the right." Leading Christina Gorelik .

Kristina Gorelik: There were worse times, but there were no sample. Was we always live in vile time, and so has always been? The reason for the conversation was the events in Ukraine and the very recent war in Chechnya, only 15 years passed, there were still armed conflicts in the interval, we can remember Georgia. So, I have a journalist Arkady Babchenko and Sergey Krivenko, a member of the Presidential Council for Human Rights, a member of the board of the Memorial Society, next to me. So, today we will say pores of similarities and differences most likely Chechnya and Donbass. Putin promised Barrosa to take Kyiv in two weeks, Grachev also promised Yeltsin to take Grozny in two hours - this is an analogy. Putin seemed to joke, but Grachev did not joke.

Arkady Babchenko: He joked, but as far as I understand the information that comes, apparently, such plans were really developed. The SBU, at least, says that some sabotage or landing in Kyiv was developed. That is, in principle, the fact that Kyiv can be taken not like in two weeks, but in two days a sabotage landing, I fully admit it, Russia has enough strength for this, of course. The problem is not that, the problem is what will happen later. Then there will be the next 10-15 years of the partisan war, and Russia will still lose in this case, if such a scenario is implemented, this is definitely.

Kristina Gorelik: But this is if they enter Kiev. And if such sorties are in the Donbass, then there is already a completely different situation?

Arkady Babchenko: This, of course, is the difference from the Chechen war, this was not in Chechnya.

Sergey Krivenko: At the very beginning, in November, even before the introduction of troops.

Arkady Babchenko: The fifth column tried to go, Alpha tried to go back to a full -fledged introduction of troops back in 1992. Special detachments worked there. This was called "tactics of oil spots."

Christina Gorelik: What is this tactics?

Arkady Babchenko: This is when sabotage detachments are sent, they conquer a small piece, a small bridgehead, then more and more strength is sent there, this spot grows. There are several such spots, they grow, merge, so the territory is taken under control. This innovation of this particular war, before this war, Russia has not applied such tactics. Now, I must say, at the beginning of the war in Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Gorlovka, this tactic was applied quite successfully.

Kristina Gorelik: And the new term has a "hybrid war". Sergey, what is it?

Sergey Krivenko: I'm not the author of this term.

Kristina Gorelik: I understand that I am not as an author, but as an expert I ask.

Sergey Krivenko: We see that there is a lot of information on the Internet that the supply of equipment is underway, the military weapons are being supplied. There is nothing to ask where the militias of the PNC from which Ukrainian helicopters, aviation and so on are shot down from the militias. This cannot be. There was a calculation of how many ammunition is needed for fighting, even if the militias, we will call them so, captured the Ukrainian unit, took a certain number of cartridges, this is still not enough for fighting, active military operations for some long. That is, there is a huge number of deliveries, deliveries from Russia are clearly going, because no longer from where. Our state is clearly involved in this.

Kristina Gorelik: In my opinion, it participates not only in technology. There are many investigations of journalists now. Journalists of the rain made their investigation, the famous story, how the paratroopers were buried under Pskov. Arkady, explain to me why they take part, possibly in many armed conflicts? What is it connected with-are these some special units?

Arkady Babchenko: The Pskov Division is the most fighting, as the war begins somewhere, there the first Pskov division.

Christina Gorelik: Why exactly she, why exactly from there?

Arkady Babchenko: I don’t know, maybe the most combat -ready, most prepared, maybe they have experience.

Sergey Krivenko: Now there is information that young people, guys, military personnel are dying from different parts. 18 motorized rifle brigade, which is stationed in Chechnya, Kostroma paratroopers, Ivanovo, other units, the same Pskov. Mostly paratroopers, scouts.

Kristina Gorelik: Which is currently undergoing a contract service?

Sergey Krivenko: It must be clearly said that we, as a human rights organization, as partners, receive information from the parents of the dead, they are sent statements: such and such a certificate of death, it is written that the cause of death is explosive injury, multiple fragmentation wounds. The circumstances of the death, the family of death - are not established. The place of death is the point of temporary deployment of the military unit. And this is very strange.

Kristina Gorelik: That is, do you have specific documents?

Sergey Krivenko: Documents from the parents themselves and more than one, and a half, 15 of these statements we and partners have. This is very strange, because for each fact of the death of a soldier, an investigation should be carried out, a criminal case should be opened, and to find out all the circumstances. Here no one knows what happened, where in the territory of the unit.

Kristina Gorelik: Have you contacted law enforcement agencies?

Sergey Krivenko: As soon as we receive such data, we turn to the military-investigation department of the Investigative Committee, the main military prosecutor’s office with a demand, if there is no clear information about death, we received a list of 9 contractors who seemed to be killed, we have information that on August 9-11 we died, it is also incomprehensible how, we immediately turned to the Military Pillarial Department to confirm or refute the fact of their deaths, if we have been killed, if we have been killed, if we have been died. death is confirmed - conduct an investigation. In the same cases, when it is clearly known that the guys died, there is an appeal to check, find out all the circumstances of the death, initiate a criminal case and punish the perpetrators. So far there are no answers. Yesterday, a meeting of the standing commission on military-civil relations was held in the Council, in which the Deputy Minister of Pankov took part, who said that our military did not fight in Ukraine, let's understand each occasion. He did not confirm. He expressed indignation at the secret funeral of the Pskov paratroopers, said that this, of course, was intolerable.

Kristina Gorelik: there are then signs with names and surnames disappeared.

Sergey Krivenko: He said that they were removed due to the fact that they were erected by monuments in order to erect monuments. According to him, they must literally erect monuments today. He expressed indignation in such a fact, by the fact that this is all hidden. He said that two paratroopers, another special forces, of course, is not worthless to bury it secretly. He said that they are also very unhappy like in Kostroma, when their parents went out onto the streets and in front of a military unit demanded information where their sons are located. Nobody went out for a long time, then the deputy commander for work with personnel came out. As he said: it would be better if he did not go out, because instead of explanation, reassurance, he embittered people even more. Such facts are unacceptable, we must work with people. He said that now they started a whole campaign, they are asking all military personnel to call their relatives, to say that they are alive, that they are in Russia, they are not sending them anywhere. Now such a campaign is going on in the troops. That's what he said. He did not confirm and did not even talk about it as such a reasonable fact that military personnel of the Russian army participate in the conflict in Ukraine, and for each occasion, let's work, check what happened there.

Christina Gorelik: Would you believe him?

Arkady Babchenko: Of course not. I don't understand this tactic at all. Tell me: we consider Ukraine to be a fascist state, we believe that Russians are offended there, we will protect the Russians, we introduce troops to protect the Russians. What is a fool to fall? You think so, please do.

Kristina Gorelik: This is the difference between the war in the Donbass from the war in Chechnya.

Arkady Babchenko: And even from the war in Georgia.

Kristina Gorelik: Although at the very beginning, I remember, Sergey Adamovich Kovalev, he was an authorized person at that time, he said that at the very beginning in Chechnya the soldiers were inquiries that they were either in dismissal or vacation, sickness there .. That is, at first it was all like “polite people” in the Crimea, and then it became open.

Sergei Krivenko: Such tactics are intolerant, she hits the military himself.

Kristina Gorelik: Beats in prestige.

Sergey Krivenko: By the prestige. There for a very long time they could not include fighting in Chechnya in the laws. Fighting is horror. It is no coincidence that the law on hostilities has a war veteran, not even a disabled person, just a participant, and a disabled person is a special social package. It doesn’t matter what size it is and so on. That is, just for participating in hostilities.

Christina Gorelik: Why doesn’t it matter? A man risked his life. I wonder how much the soldier's life is evaluated.

Arkady Babchenko: 850 rubles a day was in Chechnya. 800 private, 850 sergeant composition.

Kristina Gorelik: The New Gazeta published an interview with the parents of one of the dead allegedly in the Donbass of Russian military personnel. There was talk about what they promised 50 or 40, he received 30 and, apparently, deceived.

Sergey Krivenko: This is a regular contract, this is not about combat. This is Andrei Tumanov, about whom in the Novaya Gazeta published, the deceased soldier. Now the contractor 25-30 at the very beginning of the service receives, and then the amount may increase after some time to 50, there at the expense of the service life, some other things.

I have testimonies, the colleagues of Andrei Tumanov, why in Novaya Gazeta all this is published, there are recorded testimonies of the colleague who called and told his mother the circumstances of the death of her son. That really 18 the brigade was relocated to the Rostov region, deployed in temporary camps and built on August 12, a column of 1,200 people were formed. Basically, these were ammunition trucks, there was still heavy equipment. This column went to the territory of Ukraine at night.

Christina Gorelik: They told them about this?

Sergey Krivenko: No, they were told to carry out a combat mission. Moreover, the commander spoke, who said that those who refuse would be subjected to criminal prosecution, because you are obliged to carry out a combat mission.

Kristina Gorelik: Then my question will be whether to obey the commander’s criminal order.

Sergey Krivenko: It would be logical to assume, as in the films of the Great Patriotic War, who wants - a step forward. But here they were deceived. Information of such an incident sounded on the Internet, the guy says: we were told that this is the teachings, we are going when they began to explode, I began to lightly burn, it became clear that this is not a teaching, but that it was hostilities. This column went, reached the city of Snezhnoye, Donetsk region, around 20 kilometers, stood at some factory. This is all according to the testimony of the contractor, they are recorded. He does not want to glow now, because he is an acting contractor. He said that he was ready in the prosecutor's office, the court to speak and so on. They were shelling from Grad, one salvo, 40 missiles. Due to the fact that there were ammunition in trucks, something detonated, out of 1200, according to him, more than a hundred died, more than three hundred wounded.

Kristina Gorelik: Do you know that the Russian Ministry of Defense called it nonsense?

Sergey Krivenko: Yes, they called it nonsense. As soon as we received this information, we immediately sent to the Investigative Committee with a request to confirm or refute, give us a conclusion.

Kristina Gorelik: So they answered you.

Sergei Krivenko: This Ministry of Defense answered, and by the way, an anonymous source is not considered. There is a young man, a soldier, a contractor, there are those who died on August 13, here there are testimonies of the second contractor about the place of death, because they are not indicated here. In the evening, this remaining column with the wounded, with corpses returned to the territory of Russia, where the wounded were transported by helicopters in military hospitals. There is also information that in Rostov the hospital is scored by wounded, and other hospitals. The dead were divorced mothers. That is, there is the first testimony that the young man says-this is not that someone heard something: I participated in this, fogs died in my eyes, I am his colleague, I am ready to speak. Now this information is checked. I hope they give an answer.

Kristina Gorelik: Have you had to comply with the illegal orders of the commanders?

Arkady Babchenko: We had before the assault on Grozny into the second Chechen, we were built before the assault. Nobody ever set specific tasks, nobody ever set us in the first Chechnya, nor in the second specific tasks. We were sent to Chechnya, I went to Chechnya from the training, buyers came, said: guys who wants to go to the Caucasus? You will live in Vladikavkaz, in Beslan, in chocolate, swim, eat Kishmish. Naturally, everyone wanted. And until the last, until they brought us to Mozdok, we were not told to the last that we were being taken to Chechnya, the whole echelon was brought straight to Chechnya. Everyone understood everyone by and large. Neither in the first war, nor in the second I remember the specific order. That is, as a rule, you are being planted, going somewhere, your commander knows where you are going, until the last moment you don’t understand where you are going, what is your task there. You come, land the perimeter in some swamp, either for the assault, or to strip-it is not clear. Before the assault on Grozny, the battalion commander built us and said that the assault on the formidable begins, we are going to storm the Terrible. Orally said the order, the directive, there was such an order that the entire population in Grozny from 15 to 60 years is militants and is subject to destruction. I even literally remember: even in a child, even in an old man, even in an elephant. There was such an order. It is clear that no one was going to fulfill it, no one listened to all this nonsense. Because in principle, in any war, any army is fighting for good and justice, against evil, fascism and so on. Therefore, everyone wants to be good, for good, white and fluffy. Naturally, no one was going to execute this order. As for the execution of illegal orders, the soldier in principle cannot but follow orders. In any case, the soldier will violate human rights, not a single war has so far without it. I had no cases that someone ordered me to shoot someone behind the bush. But if there was such an order, I would not personally fulfill it, I think that most of my colleagues would not have fulfilled him either.

Kristina Gorelik: And not for what reasons: for moral and ethical or because it will be a war crime?

Arkady Babchenko: The fact that a war crime, about what will be responsible, no one thinks about it. You have no idea, you will return home or not return. There all the prohibitions are removed, there you can do anything. But with all this, I remember, there was a case when the prisoner was shot. It was believed that sending to Chechnya is only voluntary, it was necessary to write a report. Those who did not write a report were sent anyway, no one asked them, these reports were needed only for excuses. Then in the year 2005-2007, maybe a little later, the Criminal Code was adopted by the correction of desertion. Contractors under the article on desertion are unambiguously. But the fact is that the order to nominate the column is absolutely legal, you must fulfill it. If they tell you: we sit in a column and go to Rostov, you must sit down and certainly go.

Sergey Krivenko: Because they don't tell them. This contractor says that the combat task was given to "form a column and go." And where - it is no longer their business.

Kristina Gorelik: So this is the problem: they give information in small portions and the one that the soldier cannot help but fulfill!

Sergey Krivenko: As in Chechnya, neither a military nor emergency has been introduced in Ukraine, even in those areas where hostilities are going on. The army is applied not in accordance with the laws of Ukraine, as in our Chechnya, all this was. That is, an anti -terrorist operation, a constitutional order - these are all words. In Ukraine, there is a law on martial law, on an emergency, it is not applied now, when hostilities are going on.

Christina Gorelik: Do you propose applying it?

Sergey Krivenko: Of course. In international documents there is either a police operation when weapons can not be used, neither aviation, nor equipment, police officers are undergoing an operation against terrorists or something else. Or if the armed forces are used, they must go in a normative field. But it is not used for many different reasons. In the same way as in Chechnya. Now the main difference, as I understand it, is that there is an information campaign unleashed against Ukraine against Ukrainian society.

Кристина Горелик: Безумная какая-то, правда, вообще такого никогда не было.

Сергей Кривенко: Она безумная, ни на чем не основанная, с привлечением маркеров старых – бандеровец, фашисты. В Украине демократическое государство. Поэтому сейчас подлое время и по отношению к обществу, и по отношению к Украине, и по отношению к своим военнослужащим, если подтверждается, что наши военнослужащие участвуют в боевых действиях на территории Украины.

Аркадий Бабченко: Абсолютно подлое время. Я считаю, что в Чечне такого не было совершенно точно, потому что в Чечне тебя никто не заставлял, не давил, чтобы ты отказывался от своего имени. Наоборот командиры говорили делать смертные медальоны из ложек стальных. Все имели право быть хотя бы опознанными, хотя бы похороненными. Посмотрите, до чего общество может довести человек, привыкший действовать втихушку кагэбешными методами. Армия идет, выполняет приказ, она обязана, она имеет право на почет в обществе, она имеет право быть ветеранами, она имеет право на медали. Я когда смотрю интервью с людьми, попавшими в плен, десантниками, где их спрашивают: скажите, что вас ожидает в России? Эти люди на полном серьезе говорят: нас, наверное, не расстреляют, но все-таки посадят. В 1937 году в обществе был страх, но страх обоснованный, был ГУЛАГ, людей действительно брали и сажали. Как им удалось привить страх в обществе сейчас? Совершенно необоснованно. ГУЛАГа же нет, репрессий по большому счету нет. Массовый страх необоснованный.

Кристина Горелик: Политзаключенные есть.

Аркадий Бабченко: Это не сравнить, конечно. Военнослужащие, выполняя приказ, совершенно безосновательно верят в то, что когда он вернется из плена, за что должен медаль получить, его за это посадят, хотя оснований нет никаких. Родственники погибших совершенно безосновательно верят в то, что если они будут говорить с журналистами, у них будут проблемы. Им деньги не дадут за это, их пугают, шантажируют. Они на полном серьезе верят, что их тоже будут сажать. И этот необоснованный страх, который удалось привить обществу – это показатель абсолютно подлейшего времени, конечно.

Кристина Горелик: Я закончу словами правозащитников, которые мне рассказывали, что когда они ездили в Чечню, собирали показания с пострадавших, пострадавшие говорили. Одна из таких больших разниц между воной в Чечне и на Донбассе – это то, что сейчас люди молчат.