Maryana Torocheshnikova: with me in the studio today is a consultant to the Center for Assistance to the Sisters who survived the violence, psychologist Olga Voronova , on the video with us a candidate of legal sciences, an expert on gender issues Boris Panteleev .
Today we will talk about legal counteracting crimes related to sexual violence and non -violent actions of a sexual nature. The Supreme Court decided to summarize the practice of lower courts in such cases and prepared a draft decision, which recently was discussed at the Plenum of the Supreme Court. However, it was decided to finalize this document, since the problem is quite serious, and the local judges often do not quite understand what to rely on and how to make decisions on cases related to rape. The judges decided to bring the legal understanding of the situation related to the violent actions of a sexual nature to how psychologists understand this.
How much is the opinions of lawyers and the opinions of psychologists who work with victims of violence diverge about sexual violence?
Olga Voronova: In my opinion, these opinions do not diverge at all. In our work, we rely on the law, speaking of sexual violence. We have published the book "Legal Protection of the victims of sexual violence", it just listed articles.
Maryana Torocheshnikova : That is, the formulations in the Criminal Code are unambiguous and do not cause difficulties?
Olga Voronova: The formulations of laws do not cause difficulties, we rely on them and focus.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: Why then the Supreme Court decided to clarify the situation with sexual crimes, why was the Plenum of the Supreme Court gathered?
Boris Panteleev: Indeed, legal formulations in this resolution are not new, they repeat and disclose the content of the legislation adopted in 1993. About once every 10 years, the plenum repeats these formulations. The problem is that a very clear, concrete conflict arose between formal legal, expert understanding of violence and everyday consciousness, mass consciousness. When considering specific cases, researchers and judges are often perplexed whether what is written in the law can be put into practice, and sometimes they derive all kinds of tricks from the responsibility of the villains. The key problem today is a decrease in the threshold of entering the sex life of youth. The plenum discusses the question of whether it is necessary to bring to justice the villains from the age of 18, as it is now written down, or from 16, and we are talking about young men and girls who enter into sexual intercourse very actively at the age of 12. From the point of view of the law, they are specially protected objects, the law establishes their sexual integrity, but in practice it turns out that one of them must be convicted, somehow held accountable, and the other is a victim. In life, it turns out that this is a normal phenomenon, society approves this, judges, as follows from practice, close their eyes, accept voluntary failures, reconciliation of the parties, and so on. And the key position for which this resolution is taking, there are socio-moral reasons.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: That is, judicial practice, the practice of law enforcement agencies completely diverges with public opinion on specific cases and real life. Not to mention the fact that in Russia it is quite difficult to find adequate statistics on sexual violence. The victims of such crimes themselves often do not apply to law enforcement agencies, and some, already contacting, then leave with nothing, criminal cases are not initiated, because the police do not just understand how a wife, for example, may declare that her husband raped her. This is nonsense from the point of view of most citizens. Or they say: “What did you come to complain? I asked yourself! Look how you are dressed, how you behave ...” And the criminal case is not initiated. I found more or less intelligible statistics in 2011, and then 4 cases of rape per 100 thousand people were recorded. According to Russian female crisis centers, every hour in Russia, a woman dies at the hands of her husband or partner of a loved one, this is already homemade violence, a separate topic.
Why don't women strive to punish the rapist? Why is this story often experienced internally and does not end with an appeal to law enforcement agencies?
Olga Voronova: There are several aspects. A woman lives in society, and if her neighbors see and say that she is raped, it will be a second injury for her. If this happened near the house, you go to the police department next to you, and neighbors, acquaintances can work there. This is an unpleasant topic for others to know her. Another point is distrust that you can punish someone. The collection of evidence is a difficult matter, and the woman who got into such a situation first of all runs home, takes off her clothes and climbs the bathroom, because immediately the feeling of some kind of dirt arises. In this state, a person does not understand what will happen next, and actually destroys all evidence of the crime. Beating, abrasions, breaks remain. And most often the woman says when you ask if she will submit an application: "No, it is most care about so that I do not pick up any infection. Where can I go to avoid infection?" And they do not listen to the fact that it is necessary to collect evidence, they cannot be destroyed. This is a shock at the first moment. And then try to collect the evidence base.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: The other day, a study of Copenhagen scientists was published (it was conducted from March 2001 to December 2010), which came to the conclusion that, contrary to a common opinion in society that rape occurs during an attack by a stranger in a dark gateway, in fact, most often people who were knew at the time of the attack. About 75 percent of the victims met the criminal before the attack, and almost half of the respondents said that it was their current or former boyfriend, family member or the one they took for a friend. Perhaps this also prevents a woman from going to court.
Olga Voronova: And that too. This is a serious problem, a woman is familiar with a person, flirts with him, and she does not hope that she will be forced to sex, but for the fact that they will have a romantic relationship. And the man has different plans, the woman says “no”, and the man is no longer interested in whether she wants something or does not want to. Sometimes men say: "Well, we are adults, it is clear that I want this, and you also want it." But the woman wants this wrong, and men do not wait for a woman to give them a signal about her consent.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: and in law enforcement agencies often perplexed when a woman submits an application.
Olga Voronova: Yes, they say: "You went on a date. What did you want? You did not know where are you going?" There are a lot of myths in our society, and we often have to debunk them even among professional psychologists who come to us on a “trust phone number”. And what is happening is terrible.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: Does the police explain to the police what should they do when they are addressing such issues?
Boris Panteleev: Yes, of course, comrades, work colleagues explain. For example, they say that in no case should you begin active actions on the same day when a woman who suffered from rape brought a statement with a request to institute criminal proceedings, and it is necessary that a person slept with this status with this. The situation is such that two of the five applicants come the next day to refuse, take their statement back, and wise investigators are proud that they did not give the case. Very often, the rapists are not outsiders, and having thought better of, having left the state of alcohol, people try to agree on concepts.
In fact, rape has a high degree of latency, and the assessment has such that out of 50 committed acts, one falls into the sphere of justice, and 49 remain unnoticed. In particular, because rape is not only physical, but also mental violence, and here the victim falls into a trap - it must prove to the investigator that she had to agree to illegal actions against her out of fear, the villain intimidated her, but she comes and tells. It turns out that intimidation was unconvincing ... These games at the investigation stage often lead to victims to the need to make excuses. Moreover, investigators often say: "We will conduct a check on the" polygraph ", and if you are confused, this will be a knowingly false denunciation." Because these cases are not considered successful, they very rarely have a sustainable judicial perspective. After all, there is still such a situation, with regard to statistics. It used to be believed, and this was confirmed by the data that the number of such rape, especially cruel rape, was more, relatively speaking, in the Soviet period, then they became significantly less. Today, what was previously considered rape or obscenity, everyday life, and there is no need to often use violence, all the more there are market relations in this area, very developed.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: In general, they do not want to spoil their statistics, as I understand it.
Boris Panteleev: This is time. And the victims find ways to agree with the villains. And the villains find ways to convince the victims to withdraw their statements. In exchange for some monetary compensation. If the case has gone far enough, if it has become resonant in relation to the young people, then it will be darkness for the investigator, if he gets involved in this case, and then the readings will change, and everything was in vain. There is a saving of forces and means.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: But this is a myth that you can pick up a statement about rape, since this is a public charge, respectively, if the case is given a move, you will not take anything away. Therefore, probably, investigators adhere to the statements, do not give them a move.
Olga Voronova: We give the women who called us such information that if you have submitted an application, it will turn out that you have stipulated this person, so if you are ready to continue the investigative event, then submit. If you are not ready to continue this, think that you are not accused of perjury.
Boris Panteleev: There are a lot of such cases when the criminal case is already in full swing, and the victims begin to either cooperate with the villains and repeat their version in full, burning them, working against justice, or they are altogether, and it is impossible to repeat their testimonies in court, and the case loses the prospect. This is both about pedophilia and traditional rape. An extra -procedural transaction is concluded, and then they are trying to make a reservation, but there was no one, the victims disappeared, or they consistently tell a new story that they themselves were influenced by alcohol, drugs, and anything. This is an extremely common situation today, especially when high -ranking officials and wealthy businessmen come across, the case falls apart without reaching the court. And the courts are forced to listen to this and somehow resist this.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: In addition, there is another problem that women are talking about ... We are talking mainly about women, because there are rape of men, but it is so rare ...
Olga Voronova: They are not rare, they talk little about them. Men are very embarrassed to talk about this topic, but it is. And they call us and talk about the violence that was with them. And to go and declare is such shame for them ... In my practice, there was no such thing, but there were calls.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: That is, it is the women who survived violence that are experiencing almost the second time that they had already happened to them, first trying to prove to the investigator that it was a rape, and not voluntary consent, referring, in particular, to the explanation of the Plenum, what is a state of helplessness, the state of alcohol intoxication ...
Olga Voronova: Yes, or just a disabled person who is not able to protect himself, this happens too.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: First you prove to the investigator that it was ...
Olga Voronova: Then a lawyer, then to the prosecutor, then speak in court. And since this is a very personal topic, it is difficult to survive, and it is very difficult to talk about it, even to a loved one.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: There are times when there are obvious evidence - abrasions, bruises, scratches - there is no woman on the body, no one beat her. But at the same time there was sexual violence. How to act in such cases?
Olga Voronova: There is a moral aspect. The person I met suddenly raped me, and for him this violence, but for me not. But if a woman does not agree to enter into sexual contact, she can always say no. There are myths, of course. In fact, you may have different motives, why you are meeting with a person. And this is your right - to decide when it is time, and he cannot force you to this. And if this is a husband, a close partner, my consent to sexual contact is always required. If I do not want this sexual contact, they force me - physical, psychological or economic threats, from the point of view of psychology this is a crime, and from the point of view of legal, it is not clear how to prove it. If the beatings, it’s easier, I can fix the bruises and I can prove that I resisted, I didn’t want to, I was beaten and forced to enter into sexual contact. And if there are no beatings, well ...
Boris Panteleev: The new draft of the resolution of the Plenum of the Supreme Court does not give any additional reason for optimism here, is not focused on the application of new achievements of scientific and technological progress. There is a special section on the Internet for the commission of depraved actions, and now it is recognized that if communication on the Internet with minors on such topics is established, this is recognized as a corpus delicti. This is great progress, because we know that the gigantic number of such acts is so remote and occurs. Without direct physical contact.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: But here we are not talking about rape, these are sexual actions of a depraved nature.
Boris Panteleev: That's right. But, based on this logic, it can be expected that the Plenum of the Supreme Court will explain that under pressure, mental or moral, you can recognize the directed SMS or trolling on social networks, or a promise to disseminate negative information on the network in order to break the victim’s resistance and we do not see anything like that in the text. Although, possibly, departmental orders, at the level of the Investigative Committee or the Ministry of Internal Affairs of this kind of evidence can be accepted. Since today the main evidence in deciding on the initiation of a criminal case, registration of it and the creation of the investigative group is mainly technical means. No matter how many statements we submit, witnesses were invited, there are no telephone conversations, video recordings from external surveillance cameras, today investigators are very afraid of delusing to the investigation of some serious matter without such evidence.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: And when a woman comes and declares that she was raped, outwardly, everything is safe for her, there is no abrasions and bruises, it is realistic to prove something to investigators.
Boris Panteleev: In the situation, “the word against the word“ the positions of the parties are equal, and I will be very surprised if the investigator begins some active actions without the conclusion of a forensic, biological and forensic examination, without photo, video data, some other special equipment. It is simply impossible to prove the fact of violence. There are concrete explanations on this occasion, as for, for example, the threat of murder. Just verbal threats and intimidation are not taken into account, and no one will respond today today.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: But the same Supreme Court writes: "If, when raping or committing violent acts of a sexual nature, in order to overcome the resistance of a victim in relation to other persons, violence was used or expressed the use of violence, then such actions also require additional qualifications for other articles." That is, theoretically, investigators will have to take this into account or not?
Boris Panteleev: Yes, they will interrogate these third parties, to find out if they knew about such threats than this is still confirmed, except as a statement by the victim that she had heard threats to third parties. Here the procedure for proof is not simplified, but complicated. And this should be confirmed by some objective data, preferably a technical nature, so that this is obvious to all participants in the process.
Maryana Torocheshnikova: That is, a woman needs to walk with a DVR on her forehead all the time.
Olga Voronova: I had this kind of call. The girl studied at the institute, could not transfer anywhere, and the teacher forced her to action of this kind. Я ей посоветовала записать все его разговоры на диктофон. Это, по крайней мере, будет доказательством, если она обратится, к примеру, в деканат.
Марьяна Торочешникова: Кстати, среди разъяснений Верховного суда, как себя вести при рассмотрении дел, связанных с преступлениями сексуального характера, был пункт, где говорится, что нельзя считать психологическим принуждением обещания мужчины, например, жениться на женщине в случае, если она им переспит. Специально оговорено это, видимо, были прецеденты в судебной практике.
Ольга Воронова: Это не угроза же никакая. То, что она наивная, это другое. А вот какой-то шантаж, когда, к примеру, женщина говорит: "Я себя убью, если ты на мне не женишься", - то вот это психологическое давление на мужчину. Но вот юристы говорят, что нужно, чтобы это кто-то слышал, а насильник человек умный, как правило, он не делает таких заявлений в присутствии других людей, обычно это угроза в приватной беседе.
Марьяна Торочешникова: Женщины, которые звонят в кризисные центры, какого они возраста?
Ольга Воронова: Разного. Последнее преступление – 91 год. Ее избили, изнасиловали и ограбили. Дело было отправлено в суд, очень долго тянулось. Ей было страшно, она переехала, поменяла место жительства, родственники помогли.
Марьяна Торочешникова: А можно ли говорить, что есть какая-то возрастная категория, которая в зоне риска находится?
Ольга Воронова: Нет, нельзя. Это тоже из серии мифов, которые бытуют. Кто угодно можно подвергнуться социальному насилию, если говорить о жертве, которая подверглась нападению. Разные ведь бывают случаи. Бывают на свидании изнасилования, муж жену может изнасиловать – это мы не берем, а на улице нападают на кого угодно. У насильника мотив – напасть, разрядить свою злость, чаще всего это какая-то психологическая злость, когда на него кто-то накричал, его унизил. И унизив кого-то, он поднимает свою самооценку. Насилие на улице – там мотив другой: власть и контроль, кого-то подавить и унизить.
Марьяна Торочешникова: А то, что жертва сам провоцирует насильника, - это тоже миф?
Ольга Воронова: Да. Вот конкретно наш центр, мы не считаем, что жертва может кого-то спровоцировать. Тот человек, который совершает действия, он ответственен за это действие. И не важно, в каком ты наряде, это не является манком для преступника. Насильник на улице, он выжидает где-то, и кто будет проходить в тот момент, когда для него будет это безопасно, ему абсолютно все равно. На девочку, которая вызывающе одета, нормальный мужчина посмотрит, улыбнется и пойдет дальше. Часто звонят женщины и говорят: "Что ему во мне нужно было? Я шла в старом пальто, я пожилая, усталая после работы… Чем я ему понравилась?" Абсолютно никак не провоцирует, тут абсолютно другой мотив.
Марьяна Торочешникова: А следователи, судьи поднимают в таких делах вопросы, связанные с провокацией?
Борис Пантелеев: Да, обязательно. Это самая существенная вещь, называется на языке юристов виктимностью. И если жертва ведет себя с точки зрения общественной морали нестандартно, провоцирует на совершение каких-либо действий в отношении нее, то это для следователей является определенным красным вызовом, чтобы более тщательно отнестись к ее показаниям, выяснить субъективную сторону ее поведения, рассмотреть варианты, какие там планы строились, какие были интересы задействованы, не было ли коммерческого интереса, провокации. То есть это составная часть работы следователя, он это должен делать, это нормально. Потому что именно на виктимности строится вся позиция защиты. Ведь общеизвестно, что сегодня две категории жертв у нас есть – те, которые обвиняются в том, что они сами провоцировали насильника, и те, которые сопротивлялись, сопротивлялись слишком эффективно, и нанесли несопоставимый вред насильникам. В этом случае общество тоже не всегда толерантно относится к жертвам, которые активно боролись за себя.
Марьяна Торочешникова: Вы сейчас говорите о необходимой обороне?
Борис Пантелеев: Да, и это тоже огромная проблема. Роль жертвы в данном случае ключевая. Преступление считается завершенным с начала совершения полового акта, а дальше может произойти все, что угодно, может начаться бурное сопротивление, вплоть до смерти злодея, или это может перерасти в любовную игру и половой акт по взаимному согласию. Что защита часто и приводит в оправдание, что потом они совместно распивали спиртные напитки, курили, дарили друг другу цветы, провожали до дома, и в чем же тут изнасилование… Поэтому роль жертвы, потерпевшей по уголовному делу в данном вопросе, мне кажется, тоже следовало бы прописать более жестко – эти сценарии должны анализироваться экспертами, психологами, привлекаемыми уже на стадии следствия, чтобы отбросить заранее наговоры и компрометацию жертвы в ходе судебного процесса. Иначе получается, что следователь этому не придал значения, прошло несколько месяцев, и такие дела расследуются полгода и более, а через полгода оказывается, что после акта насилия там развивались психологические отношения, знакомство с родителями, свадьба и бог знает что еще – рассказывают адвокаты в зале суда. И поэтому дела рассыпаются.
Ольга Воронова: Это частные моменты. И наш центр точно расходится с людьми, которые пытаются жертву в чем-то обвинить. Жертва – это жертва. Насилие – это принуждение без согласия жертвы. И когда начинаются игры около, это уже не очень красиво, потому что человек и так потерпевший… И для жертвы это мучительно. И женщины не подают в суд, потому что после того, как против меня это совершили, я должна будут выслушать еще всю эту кухню, и вдруг начинают выяснять, нравственна ли я вообще по жизни или нет. То есть, если я не нравственна, мне можно дать в челюсть, просто стукнуть и изнасиловать. Бьют, приставляют нож к горлу, рвут одежду, а после насилия еще вытаскивают все деньги, отнимают телефон и снимают шубу. И женщина подвергается этой унижающей процедуре еще. И если я безнравственна, меня можно насиловать.
Марьяна Торочешникова: Не говорят уже о том, что большинство людей в правоохранительных органах – мужчины, и женщины судьи тоже рассматривают такого рода дела несколько предвзято.
Ольга Воронова: Они тоже в плену мифов, которые бытуют в обществе. Более того, жертвы тоже в них погрязли, они, когда звонят, их и озвучивают: я была некрасиво одета, непричесанна, а меня почему-то изнасиловали. Насилие – это не секс, не любовь, это совсем другое.
Марьяна Торочешникова: Борис, а что еще вы хотели бы, чтобы судьи пояснили по таким делам?
Борис Пантелеев: На мой взгляд, ключевым является пункт 23, который призывает судей не работать на корзину и не заниматься профанацией правосудия. Сегодня очень часто бывает, что даже такие особо тяжкие дела по обвинению в изнасиловании несовершеннолетних заканчиваются условным приговором, наказания ниже низшего предела назначаются, и едва достигнув мест лишения свободы, эти преступники освобождаются условно-досрочно. Коррупция, видимо, настолько сильна, договорная сторона дела…
Марьяна Торочешникова: Что судьям Верховного суда приходится разъяснять своим коллегам, каким образом поступать в такого рода делах.