DPR is for a long time

Refugees from Donbass are thinking about the future of the gray zone created by Putin's puppets

The zone of conflict in eastern Ukraine was left by hundreds of thousands of people. The Committee on Perevli's Affairs, created in Kyiv, proceeds from the fact that it will not be possible to solve the problem of self -proclaimed republics in the near future. Some of the refugees returned in the territory controlled by the "DPR" and "LPR", but the majority is not going to return. On November 2, when the separatists held their elections, refugees in many cities of Ukraine entered the protest against illegal voting.

On November 15 , another rally under the slogan "There is no Putin puppy republics" in Kiev. It is associated with the contract introduced to the Parliament of Abkhazia on the creation of the United Army of Abkhazia and Russia. The organizers of the rally consider this agreement "another step on the actual annexation by the Russian Federation of the territory of an independent state." The rally of solidarity with the people of Georgia was proposed by the activist of the Committee on Perevolenye's Affairs Irina Perkova . She was born in Mariupol, lived in Donetsk, Sevastopol and Georgia, has been living in Kyiv since September.

Irina Perkova answered the questions of Radio Liberty.

Refugees from Donbass are thinking about the future of the gray zone created by Putin's puppets

- I am a bank employee. Before the annexation of Crimea, she lived in Sevastopol for three years. She left Crimea because she never wanted to live in Russia, although I have relatives in Russia: my grandmother lives in the Kursk region. Although Russian blood flows in me, I feel like a Ukrainian. Therefore, it was unacceptable for me to stay in the Crimea after what happened there. I decided that I would not even go there to rest until Crimea again became Ukrainian. I stayed in Mariupol, helped the defense of the city, all summer was there until my husband insisted in September so that I would come with children to Kyiv. In Kyiv, I met people who in the summer left Donetsk, Gorlovka, Kramatorsk. Basically, these are leaders, former top managers of companies, they were lucky more than the rest of the immigrants. Here, all summer, they were engaged in volunteering and help to immigrants who were less fortunate. By the fall, they saw that our state was not trying to do anything, the officials decided to completely transfer all the responsibility for the migrants to the shoulders of the volunteers.

Our committee is trying to develop projects on the socialization of liberated territories, socialization of immigrants. Now we are talking about the fact that we need to establish a national dialogue, we are trying to prompt in the ministries what and how to do. Epgetants are perceived as the subject of the process, not as an object. We also need to ask what problems and what is happening. Our rally "Donbass against terror and there is no illegal election" was timed to the ritual of elections in the Donbass. The initiator of the action was Ukrainian patriots, they found coordinators in different cities.

- Even in the territory of the Donbass, which is controlled by the DPR, there were also protests?

-There were no active protests there, but the people who are there were putting out leaflets-promotions that people ignored these elections, that these elections are illegitimate, illegal and lead to even greater problems in the region.

- Did you follow the elections held?

The purpose of these people is to maintain a gray zone in order to fulfill Moscow instructions

- Of course, she followed. I do not consider this elections. Farce. I liked the expression of one of our colleagues that this is a ritual, that is, visibility, a shell of elections. I think everyone understands this why it was done. Now these unrecognized republics are given the appearance of statehood. I am sure that the people who came to our land are not creators, and not builders. The purpose of these people is to maintain a tense atmosphere, to maintain a gray zone in order to fulfill Moscow’s instructions, destabilize all of Ukraine, keep in suspense, have weight in negotiations, hold the map in the sleeve and do everything they want. Their statement is that non -working enterprises will be nationalized and utilized, read - plundered. There are terrible things. One of our activists visited the basement of the former SBU Donetsk: they reported to her that she allegedly photographed checkpoints, sent information.

-Many former residents of Donbass are returning: basically, involuntarily, because they have ended money and nowhere to live, and someone thinks that life is getting better there. Is there such cases in the Migrants Affairs Committee?

- Yes, there are such cases. There are a couple of families who returned. We had a family, four children, they could not stay in Kyiv, left. One woman cried when she left. Indeed, there is nothing to live on, you will not find work. Not everyone is ready to live in conditions that volunteers and social services can provide.

- Watch how their fate develops?

- The DPR gives social assistance so that there are no indignations, riots. Therefore, people go there: at least there is their own housing, there is no need to remove anything. For social payments they come to the territory of Ukraine, receive some assistance from militants, somehow survive. Some of our people who left wrote: "Today there was no money for bread."

- Do you think the DPR is for a long time ?

- I'm afraid yes. Our committee proceeds from the fact that, most likely, for a long time. The people who have left here will stay here for many years. And many already say that they will never return. Therefore, this problem must be solved radically.

- Is there a military solution to the problem? Many people think that the Ukrainian army should go on the offensive and take Donetsk, I have heard this many times. Do you support this point of view?

- I do not support. Of course, there is such an option, but this is a bad option. There will be a second Chechnya, very big sacrifices.

- You talked about the national dialogue. Who can it be led with and with whom it is impossible?

- Our organization believes that this dialogue must be tried to lead with everyone. Of course, the forces that are now refueling on our occupied land are not interested in establishing dialogue, peaceful life, building an economy, they will not participate in a conversation anyway. But there are people who do not pick up a weapon, but simply sympathetic, because they lied to them that everything will be fine. Many people are irresponsible, they do not build a causal relationship. And how can it be good if the economy does not work if everything is destroyed? They are told that it will be good, and they just believe in it. The old people promise the Soviet Union, the old people believe that youth will return, the cheap sausage will return, the social pseudo -equal will return. Someone from the youth believed in the DPR, because all these years did not see the prospects of Ukraine as a free, democratic, prosperous state: everything was hard, everything was corrupt. With these people you need to conduct a dialogue. Now it’s hard for us: we argue, try to understand where to start. Because, of course, our votes to these people reach little. In addition to the fact that their consciousness is blocked in relation to Ukraine, they are aggressively configured, but you will not technically reach them. But you have to talk to them. And of course, to talk with people who live on the territory of Donetsk and Lugansk regions under the peace control of Ukraine, in the liberated territories. Because among these people, we will be honest and frank, there are also a lot of fans of separatists.

- The fighting slowed down, but the sluggish war continues. Many people think that the Minsk agreements will still be disrupted, the war will begin again, the DPR will go on the offensive at least for economic reasons, because they cannot survive in such an environment. Do you also think that the new war is inevitable, or will it be possible to solve the problem with the world?

- There are two options - the war may begin again, and it is possible to stop the conflict at that stage, in the borders in which it is now. We know examples of such gray zones - Abkhazia, Ossetia, Transnistria. That is, the result can be the same: a frozen conflict, a gray zone that will live under the neck of Russia. There will be a military conflict again or will not - it does not depend on us, but on Russia. Still, Ukraine is not so strong as to withstand Russia, and Russia has enough weapons to either support this conflict in a smoldering state or to light it again. I think that there is definitely no answer to this question on our part.

- Alexander Turchinov said that the deputies of the newly elected Verkhovna Rada will first abolish laws on the special status of Donbass and on amnesty to the militias. Is this a reasonable step?

Amnesty for militants - this is wrong, unfair

- Yes. We believe that a special status is needed, but not for the occupied territories, but for the districts of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions controlled by Ukraine. In these territories now a very difficult situation. We need a special status with special rights, with a special algorithm for both local authorities and the economy. And in those territories a special status is not needed. In order to introduce a special status there, they must obey us, must observe this law on a special status, but they will not observe it. An amnesty for militants is wrong, unfair. For those people who simply went to the referendum, on the election of November 2, to rallies under the flags of the DPR, I believe that they do not need amnesty, these people expressed their point of view, of course, it is separatist, but nevertheless. These people are not to blame. And people on whose hands are blood and criminal offenses, we simply have no right to amnesty.

- Irina, you mentioned Abkhazia, and I know that you are preparing a new action related to Abkhazia. Why did you decide to support Georgia?

- This is my idea that colleagues supported. There are two reasons. The first motive is personal. My husband is Georgian, I lived in Georgia next to Abkhazia. I know what a pain of the Georgian people it is - what happened in Abkhazia. I talked with people who had to leave their land in Abkhazia. Until now, they have not recovered, so far many cannot fit normally into society - this is a terrible tragedy. This pain of the Georgian people is my family pain, it is close to me. Of course, the fact that Russia is now taking steps towards the actual annexation of Abkhazia and its legal consolidation, cannot but worry me and my friends. This is a personal motive. Public motive is that we must support each other. Russia is now very brave. Russian aircraft cross the airspace of other states, there are brave statements from the lips of Russian politicians that they can reach some capitals. I believe that we need to fight against such an enemy together. And on the eve of the G-20 summit, I think the international community should see that the people of Ukraine and the people of Georgia will never come to terms with the aggression of Russia, with the occupation of our territories. Even if our governments are trying to talk loyally with the Russian Federation, find some contact points, not aggravate, so that there is no escalation of the conflict, we, the people, must come out, show that we are against.

- What happened in Georgia with Abkhazia seems to be what happened to Ukraine with Donbass?

The people of Ukraine and the people of Georgia never come to terms with Russia's aggression, with the occupation of our territories

- The similarity is what methods are used to create a conflict. Sending militants, material and technical, military assistance to Russia, then the puppet government, Russian proteges, ideology-this is very close. But the roots of the conflict vary. Because there are an Abkhaz people, they differ from Georgians. In Abkhazia, it turned out so that the Georgians lived much more, but, nevertheless, an ethnic background could be brought under this conflict. In our Donetsk and Lugansk regions, this conflict is artificially cheaper. I was born in Mariupol, studied in Donetsk, there were never these conflicts, never oppressed the Russian language. There have never been quarrels and strife. This conflict is sucked out of the finger and completely from scratch. In this they vary.

- If Russia had not joined this conflict, would it not have arisen?

“He would never have been.” I worked in different regions of Ukraine, communicate with people from different parts of Ukraine and absolutely firmly say that there is no contemptuous attitude in Western Ukraine to people with eastern Ukraine. Of course, we have different temperaments, different characters, we think a little differently-this consisted of how the region developed economically, how the population in the region went where people came from. People living in Ukraine are very loyal. And now in the territories of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions controlled by Ukraine, when we meet people who say that they want to Russia, they support the DPR, they do not put them in the basements. We listen to them, try to convince them. We really are a very loyal nation. Yes, if not for Russian intervention, there would have been nothing.