Why Kadyrov Donbass and Crimea?

Vitaly Portnikov: President of the Chechen Republic Ramzan Kadyrov ordered to deliver people's deputies of Ukraine to Chechnya, who allowed themselves to speak out about recent events in Grozny. With me in the Kiev studio Radio Liberty, People's Deputy of Ukraine Andrei Leva C, one of those who spoke about what was happening in Grozny. Andrei, I have such a question: your statement was a trace of those statements that Russian leaders allow themselves when it comes to the so -called leaders of the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics, or do you really consider the Islamic organizations of Chechnya as human rights activists as you said? What was it?

Andrei Levus: First of all, I wanted to open the double standards of Russian propaganda, Russian officialdom. Those statements with which the Kremlin acts are so cynical and false that I wanted to find a line where peaceful militias become terrorists, where terrorists are peaceful militias. It seems to me that my statement revealed these double standards. And this anecdotal, funny, nervous reaction of Kadyrov showed: they do not even understand that it is trolling, and they are afraid of situations that now exists in Grozny. It seems to me that Russia really lives in 1984. We try to mirror the situation, they perceive it as a threat and as a challenge.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Maybe, on the contrary, they perfectly understand what you are talking about: it is important for them in the eyes of their own citizens to introduce you and your colleagues as accomplices of terrorism?

Andrey Levus: Absolutely. The statements of Kadyrov and the investigation committee are a product for the domestic market, and not for Ukraine and not to swing any actions that Kadyrov will do-this is an internal Russian statement to mobilize the iron electorate, Putin's iron fans. They always need pictures of threats, and here Ukrainians allow themselves to intervene in the internal affairs of Russia - this is a gift for them.

Vitaly Portnikov: Then why are you making them such a gift?

Andrei Levus: My statement is also a statement for the domestic market of Eastern Ukraine. I wanted to show the paradox of thinking, the mirror of the situation and give an assessment of events in Grozny, an assessment of events in the anti -terrorist operation zone.

Vitaly Portnikov: On the other hand, you see that there is your statement, but there is a reaction on social networks, where many residents of Ukraine did not hide their positive emotions about the raid to the Grozny. Meanwhile, people who do not want war in the same way live in Grozny as people in Donetsk and in Lugansk.

Andrey Levus: All this is natural. Putin did everything so that Ukrainians perceive the Russian Federation as a threat, as an enemy. Ukrainians perceive it so, this is shown by sociology. This is a natural reaction: Ukrainians perceive mirror problems in the territory of the Russian Federation as success, as hope for a second front.

People live in Grozny who do not want war in the same way, like people in Donetsk and in Lugansk

Vitaly Portnikov: Regarding the second front. I would like to ask you as a person who until recently was the deputy head of the Security Service of Ukraine: the participation of Chechen law enforcement officers from the Cadyrov’s entourage in the events in the Donbass - how serious is this? Is it possible to say that there are really large detachments, that these are organized people, serving in specific parts that are sent from the Russian Federation to the Donbass? Or are it single phenomena?

Andrey Levus: No, these are not single phenomena. There are two currents: one is mercenaries and bandits from the Chechen Republic who came here to push up business, for squeezing cars (by the way, now we see a large traffic of expensive cars from Donetsk, from Lugansk to the Caucasus). This is the resumption of drug trafficking in the occupied territory, to the territory of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions. This is one side of the coin. And the second: indeed, there are employees of law enforcement agencies of the Chechen Republic, who, as part of the separatist Russian terrorist troops, are conducting fighting. These are serious detachments, which are primarily engaged in pacifying work among the population of the occupied territories. This is a weapon of fear in this territory. People are afraid.

Vitaly Portnikov: What does "weapon of fear" mean? Are people just afraid of these Kadyrovites?

Andrey Levus: Yes. The detachments of local separatists are always in confrontation with these detachments, and these detachments are such Chekist detachments that restore order (in their understanding) that make stripping and all dirty work.

Vitaly Portnikov: Is it coordinated with Ramzan Kadyrov, or does the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation use its units located in the Chechen Republic to send to the Donetsk Front? Is it possible to say that this is a Moscow center, or is there still a center for influence on the situation in Grozny?

Andrei Levus: I have recently have the feeling that Crimea, for example, has been divided between Ephesians and Chechen party. There is Ruslan Baysarov , who officially stated ...

Vitaly Portnikov: Former son -in -law Alla Pugacheva ...

Moscow no longer has previous resources to pay tribute for the loyalty of Chechnya, and they are given the territory for possession, as in the Middle Ages

Andrei Levus: He officially stated that with the blessing of Kadyrov, he was engaged in the revival of the resort zone in the territory of the South Crimea. As far as I understand, in connection with the war, in connection with the situation with oil, due to the fact that Crimea is economically difficult, Moscow no longer has previous resources to pay tribute for Chechnya’s loyalty, and they are given the territory for ownership, as in the Middle Ages. Ephesians were given to Sevastopol, Simferopol, and other centers. Are calculated by territories. Now we see that a similar situation can be in the East, in the Donbass. They understand that in Chechnya there are violent (this is a proud nation, it is called that) - it is better to let them fight there than here. A person who knows how to shoot and fight can easily change his paradigm of thinking, he can suddenly go against the federals. Let him fight there. This is the purification of the territory of Chechnya from violent, from potential field commanders, this is the return to the Chechen crime of these territories. And now we really see drug trafficking there, slave trade. Many captured Ukrainian citizens are now forcibly taken to Chechnya.

Vitaly Portnikov: But in connection with the latest events in Grozny-there is an opportunity that some units will move from the territory of Donbass, return to their homeland, or is it not very relevant now?

Andrei Levus: I think it will be possible to talk about this if the resistance system in the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria is built.

Vitaly Portnikov: The Chechen Republic of Ichkeria should appear for this. She is not.

Andrey Levus: I understand. I'm talking about a symbolic concept. If there are systemic centers of resistance, not sabotage shares ... Now it is either a special partisan operation, or a sabotage action of the partisans, this is not at the moment ...

Vitaly Portnikov: ... that which threatens the regime itself.

Andrey Levus: Yes. If this system appears, of course, there will be changes as part of Chechen representatives in the occupation forces in the east of Ukraine. But there is another threat to Kadyrov. After the attack in the Russian press, the topic of replacing Kadyrov with other characters is actively discussed, even names are called names, and Putin holds negotiations with them. Therefore, Kadyrov’s reaction is so emotional that he understands: everything that he bribed the Kremlin-stability is floating from under his feet. He must make sharp statements, he must show some miracles of heroism in the east of Ukraine, he can do something now.

Vitaly Portnikov: How did you and your colleagues perceive these statements? After all, it is known that the president of the Chechen Republic never hid his contempt for law and law, he is ready to act on any territory with the help of sabotage shares. So it was not only with Ukraine, it was, if you remember, with the death of many figures of just the former Republic of Ichkeria, Ichkeria resistance. I'm not talking about attempts on opponents of Ramzan Kadyrov in Moscow. He is not recognized as involved in them, but, nevertheless, these people, being deputies of the State Duma and the heroes of Russia, were destroyed by unknown forces, which later turned out to be famous. I will remind you of the fate of Ani Politkovskaya. Again, no one has ever proved Kadyrov’s involvement in her death, but, unfortunately, she is not among us.

Andrey Levus: First, how to evaluate these statements? Logic says that it can act. It is worth considering that in Kyiv, except for political refugees from the Republic of Ichkeria (there are also enough in Ukraine), there is also a Chechen crime. This may be the simplest scheme for Kadyrov in resolving this issue. But the last statements that were today sounded and are reflected on Lifeyus.ru - about the fact that the Ukrainian special services planned to kill me and my two colleagues: Yuri Bereza and Igor Mosiychuk, they say that they are informationally playing this card. And he can say in five days: we will not do anything, because we will now play along with Ukrainian special services. I think that this was largely an emotional statement: they talk about the death of his nephew during these events.

Vitaly Portnikov: He himself announced this.

Andrei Levus: On the other hand, Kadyrov looks like a driven beast, and is not believed in his threat. At the same time, criminal cases of these statements have been instituted by the Security Service of Ukraine and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. I want to open this situation a little. There are such comrades Kadyrov as Baysarov, whom we have already called today, there is Tsitsulaev - a special representative of Kadyrov in Ukraine. I want to raise this topic - Kadyrov’s participation in the processes of separatism, the Kadyrovsky business in Kyiv, the Kadyrovsky drug trafficking. I think now is a good moment to clean Ukraine.

Vitaly Portnikov: That is, you want to say that there are representatives of the Chechen Republic who are in Kiev, work officially?

Andrei Levus: There is a decree on the website of the Chechen Republic - "Official Representative". He is the director of the Chechen diaspora fund. This fund has done very strange things to us - for example, the liberation of LifeNuos journalists this spring. He was in the territory occupied by separatists and Russians in the Donbass. He determines some humanitarian aid to the east of Ukraine.

Vitaly Portnikov: Through Ukraine or through Russia?

Andrey Levus: through Ukraine. I think he forms financing from these drug flows from this business. I believe that in the light of Kadyrov’s threats, in the light of the participation of his militants in the war against Ukraine, all these ties must be tracked and, at least, to ban the entrance to the territory of Ukraine to these two citizens.

Vitaly Portnikov: As I understand it, Kadyrov never particularly hid his business interests in Ukraine. During the reign of Viktor Yanukovych, he came to Kyiv. Our Russian listeners will probably be surprised, but his portraits specially ordered for this arrival hung through all the streets and squares of Kyiv. Then it was an important figure from the point of view of Russian-Ukrainian cooperation. The question always arose: what is this cooperation based on, why is Kadyrov so important to be here?

Andrei Levus: Given that Kadyrov’s main wallet is Baysarov, and his main specialization is not resorts, but the oil and gas and energy market, you can fully calculate everything very quickly: in the light of Kharkov agreements, in the light of gas contracts, in the light of the growth of the Kurchenko empire, there is a key. It is important for Ukraine to unwind this ball and change everything. We can now finance separatism.

Vitaly Portnikov: How?

Andrei Levus: The fact that we do not close businesses that actually finance it.

Vitaly Portnikov: And is the current Ukrainian government generally interested in closing this kind of business? After all, many such businesses of the Yanukovych era exist, develop, no one touches them.

Andrei Levus: Fortunately, in Ukraine, power is not some kind of collective concept. We have different branches of power that evaluate the situation in different ways. I know, at least two or three people in the management of the country, in power, among the first persons of the state, who have such interest and who will lobby. And I, as a people's deputy, will publicly deal with this issue. I want to look into the eyes of these prosecutors, these officials, ministers (whoever it is), when we prove these schemes, we will reveal them - how they will react to this. After the Maidan, this is impossible.

Kadyrov is a person who has always officially fought with separatism, and now he looks like a person encouraging separatism in the Donbass

Vitaly Portnikov: By the way, there is some kind of paradox. Kadyrov, a man who always officially fought with separatism, put things in order with a hard hand, protecting the Chechen cities, and in this sense was so presented by Putin: Chechnya with us, no one can break the territory of the Russian Federation. And now he actually looks like a person encouraging separatism in the Donbass. If, from a Russian point of view, this is some kind of “Russian world” and so on, then in the case of Kadyrov, the meaning of the actions protesting the whole career is incomprehensible.

Andrei Levus: I do not understand the meaning of the actions of the so -called representatives of the "Russian world", pro -Russian separatists, citizens of Ukraine who tell us about Slavic unity. They launch the gang of Chechen killers belonging to another religion to the territory of St. Slavic Rus', who rape women and so on. These are facts that have documentary confirmation!

Vitaly Portnikov: You yourself say that they are in a difficult relationship among themselves.

Andrei Levus: But this has to be explained, at least, to the residents of Donbass.

Vitaly Portnikov: On the other hand, there was information that the former veterans of the war in Chechnya, who fought for the independence of this republic, are now on the Ukrainian side.

Andrei Levus: There are units, there is a battalion "Caucasus", a battalion of Johar Dudaev. These are conditional battalions - associations of volunteers who take part in active actions. These are real people.

Vitaly Portnikov: Did they come to Ukraine or live here?

Andrei Levus: These are also citizens of Ukraine (already there are such), these are also citizens of Norway, Sweden, Turkey, the Russian Federation.

Vitaly Portnikov: There is no danger from such militarized units? After all, these are people with different ideological landmarks.

Andrey Levus: Of course, there is. By the way, Kadyrov now helped a lot of centralization, unification, crystallization of this Chechen movement in Ukraine. After these statements and the personal entrance to the war with Ukraine, direct confrontation, there are now weekly meetings of the Chechen movement, there is already coordination of actions with the Ukrainian authorities. They understand that we can solve them as a threat - foreign citizens, armed and so on ... But they themselves are restoring order in this movement. Kadyrov stimulated this process. If he is in some specified framework, this is normal.

Vitaliy Portnikov: And if we talk about some further progress ... It is clear that the Kadyrov’s detachments that are in the Donbass are so easy to leave, because for them this is not some kind of sacred war, but, as you said, economic interests. There are some negotiations, Ukraine agrees on some coexistence with this territory, on some kind of restoration of control. How can you restore control in one form or another when there are such uncontrollable detachments? You can clean up some territory from such detachments, but I'm completely not sure that you can really influence the Kadyrovtsy detachments who are there, because these are Russian troops, this is the Ministry of the Interior. They did not just gathered and came, they are in the system - and at the same time outside the system.

Andrei Levus: I think that the main question in this case is not how we will agree with the Chechens (more precisely, with the Kadyrovites), but the absurdity of negotiations in Minsk. You can not sit down at the negotiating table with bandits and killers. We must admit (no matter how painful it is to listen to Russian citizens; I respect this people) that this is Russia's aggression - to officially admit, not at the level of the statement of the minister, but at the level of the document. We must not sit in Minsk for one table through the mediation of Russia, but as part of the participants of the Budapest memorandum. Russia is a guarantor of our independence.

Vitaly Portnikov: There is a Norman format.

Andrey Levus: What can we talk about with Pushilin, with Plotnitsky, with Zakharchenko? These are all clowns.

Vitaly Portnikov: On the humanitarian situation in the region, about social payments, about pensions - there is something to talk about with these people.

Andrei Levus: Any of their legitimization is a threat to Ukraine. Any payment for coal (if we are talking about the internal situation) now means that we must buy coal from them-this is the legitimization of these pseudo-republics. We must honestly say - this is the territory occupied by Russia.

Vitaly Portnikov: And what about coal, on the other hand?

Andrei Levus: You know that the rest of the Donbass has enough of his mines. Если люди, которые финансировали Партию регионов (не буду называть фамилии).

Vitaly Portnikov: Why? What are your surnames.

Андрей Левус: Есть достаточно шахт, которые можно запустить и начать работать. Просто надо немножко раскулачить некоторых деятелей, которые были среди разжигателей этой войны. Это только один вариант того, как можно решить проблему с углем.

Виталий Портников: Но вы же понимаете, что если мы говорим о гуманитарной катастрофе на Донбассе, то российская сторона может быть в большей степени заинтересованным лицом, чем сама Украина, которая сейчас не имеет контроля над этими территориями.

Андрей Левус: Я понимаю. Но нельзя смешивать мух и котлеты. Если это гуманитарная ситуация, то есть международные форматы – есть фонды ООН, ОБСЕ, Красный крест. Давайте в этом формате говорить о том, чтобы у людей были вода, хлеб, лекарства. Но когда мы поднимаем эти вопросы и садимся за стол переговоров, то есть хлеб, вода, лекарства, а потом еще – пленные, статус, а потом будет звучать разговор о возобновлении финансирования этих территорий… Но это абсурд! Давайте отдельно. Это социальная проблема, и мы ее решаем. С кем бы то ни было можно договориться, но это не политический разговор. Есть Красный крест, ОБСЕ, гуманитарные фонды ООН, сотни фондов. Пусть даже присоединятся гуманитарные фонды Российской Федерации…

Виталий Портников: Они и так уже конвои отправляют с регулярностью челнока.

Андрей Левус: Это отдельный вопрос.

Виталий Портников: Но в таком случае возникает вопрос будущей стабилизации в регионе. Если вы считаете, что нужно разговаривать только с Россией, а Россия считает, что нужно разговаривать с теми, кто в Донецке и Луганске, то это бесконечное выставление претензий. Что должно произойти, чтобы можно было перейти на ваш вариант диалога?

Если человек показывает готовность сражаться, он может проиграть, но может заслужить уважение и поддержку

Андрей Левус: Если вы отслеживаете ситуацию, то знаете, что с каждыми переговорами Россия повышает переговорные ставки, а мы их понижаем. Мы должны сказать: да, у нас есть воля сражаться за свою территорию.

Виталий Портников: Разве отказ от социальных выплат на Донбассе – это не повышение ставок?

Андрей Левус: Но надо перейти от экономического и точечного повышения ставок к стратегическому. А это есть отказ от внеблокового статуса. Если не будет обмена пленными и не будет "тишины", отмена так называемых минских законов об амнистии, о территориях – это повышение ставок. Заключение договора с США – это повышение наших ставок. Это надо сейчас принимать и показывать, что мы готовы сражаться. Если человек показывает готовность сражаться, он может проиграть, но может заслужить уважение и поддержку всех людей.

Виталий Портников: Но и цена проигрыша будет велика.

Андрей Левус: Конечно, но это история, и мы играем в геополитическое домино.

Your browser does not support HTML5

Roads to freedom. Зачем Кадырову Донбасс и Крым?