Against the current

On November 12, 2014, the well -known human rights activist, a teacher of mathematics, the former Soviet political prisoner Valery Senderov (March 19, 1945 - November 12, 2014), who played a key role in the struggle against anti -Semitism in the Soviet mathematical environment, did not become. In the last years of his life, he was seriously ill.

Mathematician Joseph Polterovich wrote the following lines on those bitter November days: “ A man of various talents left: mathematician, teacher, public figure, writer - if they did not read “ God and prison ” , Be sure to read it. But, most importantly, it was an example of extraordinary disinterestedness and courage. He was never afraid to go against the current and sought results where it seemed hopeless to many. One of the important areas of his activity was the struggle for fair access to mathematical education. The fact that The young generation does not understand what is at stake, indicates that his efforts were not in vain. It would be appropriate to establish a scholarship named after Senderov For students-mathematicians. Let it be His memory is blessed. "

Polit.ru publishes a video of his interview given by Natalia Demina on November 14, 2012.

Have you had difficulties when entering a university?

This question is completely accurate. I had every reason to think that they would not take me at Moscow State University after some scandals related to Mayakovsky. Now few people remember that this is, but I’ll say in a couple of words that it was some opposition, as they say now, a party associated with literature. And this was enough for us to not enter the university.

The Moscow City Complex of the Komsomol said that Senderov would not be at Moscow State University, and I understood that there was no surveillance of me as such, that I did not grit for me to be for me. And quietly went to Fiztech to take exams. He told everyone that Moscow State University, and he went to Fizteh himself. And he did. ... We must weigh the real one with the real, and they would like to call most of all. So I ended up on Fiztekh. What I do not regret at all was a period when I would be ashamed to be a graduate of the Mehmat of Moscow State University. The situation is still better.

Which faculty was chosen, what was the specialization?

Faculty of Management of Applied Mathematics. There were also the possibilities of pure mathematics, which I used.

Is it true that you had to leave from there in 1968, but you were able to finish it in 1970.

I was kicked out. Since the diploma was already ready and was taken into a seal. The case is special and not very frequent. This dismissal was associated with a big scandal, and then I managed to recover. It was a different story. These were lectures in the Moscow Turgenev Library, associated with German philosophy, Spengler, Nitshchch, etc. At that time it was a terrible and fingered seducte. How, Nietzsche, he is a "fascist"! The KGB was already engaged in this completely officially, we were called, but not interrogated, but asked. After that, under direct pressure or collective, maybe not, but for the university authorities this was enough to drive me out.

You did not have time to defend the diploma?

Actually, in order to graduate from the university, I could only solemnly dissuade my diploma. And these 15 minutes I did not have enough. But two years later I was restored, after the secondary order of the minister. The first was: restore, and the second: to fulfill this order. The rector of Fizteha ran around the ministry and argued that I was already abroad. As you can see, I was slightly mistaken.

Why did the minister stood up for you?

After all, it happens, it happens. The matter was quite clear, huge funds were spent on the formation of each physical education. And then everything is ready, it remains to protect the diploma. The minister did not want to waste money.

Did you take some actions?

Well, of course, they did how it is always done. But I do not think that they could be very effective. Because we did not have any strong hand. But I think it is better, and that, in the end, it was just a human act, that's all.

Do not remember the name of this minister?

Unfortunately no.

What did you do after MFTI? Went to work in a second school or somewhere else?

In fact, it is more correct to answer: yes, I went. I was a couple of work in a couple of years. It was not interesting, this work was not for me. And soon I already found my place, as it seems to me.

Video recording of an interview with Valery Sentorov, November 14, 2012, part 1.

Did you teach there?

There I mainly gave lectures, lectures on the so -called, bad word, specialmatism. This is the course that the lecturer himself chose. It was believed that in my opinion it was quite true that the point is not to read, if the lecturer reads what is close to him, he will be able to infect schoolchildren with these, and which course is not the most important thing. That is, the course was at the choice of a lecturer, in fact. I was doing this, special material.

What choice did you have? Functional analysis? What exactly did you read? Or different courses in different years?

Miscellaneous, but basically it was close not so much to functional analysis as to algebra. Funkan still requires serious tasks and technical training, algebra-no, therefore, it is better for a developing course.

You worked there before the beginning of the 80s, right?

Yes, about 10 years in total.

And how was the evening mathematical university created? What preceded him? Who was the initiator?

The so -called Jewish University or Jewish People’s, following the example of Poland, is sometimes called that, it was due to the fact that the Jews practically did not have the opportunity to enter the main faculties of Moscow State University, to the main scientific faculties. If humanitarian, then there were things there. But it was practically impossible to do the same Mehmat of Moscow State University. But you see, I say practically, but I can name the names of those who came. Each year, indeed, from 2 to 5 people could do: children of professors, winners of the International Olympiads. But this did not make weather for the rest. The rest of the Jews-detectors did not even take the great talent. And it was many dozens every year.

And so we tried to help them. In the summer before the exams they tried in every possible way to help them to act. It helped in isolated cases. There were such cases. But the main thing, probably, is not in them, but in the atmosphere of resistance to this psychological terror, intellectual genocide. It was in opposition to this, people should have understood that they were opposed to this.

.... And then, when they were already overwhelmed, we organized such not only illegal, it was not hidden, but an unofficial university. Very strong mathematicians, from the same Mehmat, gave lectures there. You do not need to think that at the Mehmat MSU all this supported this, many experienced a real disgust for this. And people from Mehmat and from other places gave lectures there. Thus, schoolchildren received a stock of mathematical knowledge and mathematical culture, and what in those conditions is no less important in any way - a reserve of resistance to arbitrariness around.

Tell me, who came to mind? When did the evening university appear? How did you get into this matter at all? When did you realize that we should do something?

They understood when to do something, I think that this has finally took shape in all respects by 1978. Who? Since the “school faculty” of the university, let’s say, worked for several years before, but throughout the year students introduced the tasks that could be offered, but not literally the same, but with lists of past years, which were not repeated. That is, it practically helped little, but gave orientation in complexity and so on.

You see, schoolchildren are still children, their abilities, they may not even understand that they were filled up. "They gave me a task, but I did not solve." It destroys them. And they understood what kind of tasks they would give them. Although, I repeat, the tasks themselves were different, but they already understood what was happening after that. Well, in the end, purely mathematically the tasks were good, it was simply useful and pleasant to solve them. And such a school faculty worked throughout the year.

Is it in the "second school"?

No, the rooms were different. It was not difficult to get the room. There is some kind of technical university, they let you in. There was nothing like that, there was no particular difficulties to find a room. And then it flowed into the fact that the exams came, it was necessary to slam the doors. We worked with the guys for a year, and then what to do? They realized that it would be like that further. Give lectures, continue training. Let the state not take them, but strong mathematicians will take them to themselves.

Who came up with this? It is difficult to say, but I would like to very much note a woman who died under, say, gently, very suspicious circumstances, Bella Abramovna Saturmus. Maybe she didn’t come up with the first one, it is now impossible to establish, but she put the whole soul in it, and if not for her, then this would not have happened. Well, a few very serious mathematicians.

Who? Can you name the names to know the story?

You know, I'm afraid to make a mistake, so I won’t do it better. Some people changed so that there were no mistakes. This is just a statement that it was. There were different circumstances, one person left - another came. That is, it is important, they did not have a lack of personnel for the "tombs", found. We also did not have a shortage, there were opposite people.

And who composed these “coffins” tasks? You managed to understand who was the composer of these tasks?

Not everyone, but succeeded. Succeeded, yes. But this is not even a matter of essay, because it is a good task. So what? Maybe he composed her for the Olympics. It was clear that before accusing, we needed very accurate data in such a situation. We had not so much on the writers, because I, I repeat, will not be directly accused of how many who gave them. They already understood what they were doing. Because they come up with good tasks, well, they come up with, by the way, a good thing. And when the teacher gives it to schoolchildren, both the second and the third of the same opera, then there are even no questions. We constantly published these names, published in the same “Chronicle of current events”, and passed to the West. There they were subjected to good obstruction, when traveling. There were strong mathematicians, it is definitely their power. A scoundrel does not mean a dumbass, this is by no means so. They went to their colleagues and the community reacted to our publications.

And they did this consciously or under some pressure, as you think?

No, it was such a rather sophisticated ideology, why not let Jews let Jews. There were several arguments. It was, I think, the main thing. It happened and dirtier when one graduate student of a very serious and quite decent mathematician ended up in this company, he was asked directly: “What are you doing?” He directly admitted that he was waiting for an apartment. So it happened both the first and the second. I would say that the main incentive was still ideology, the apartment was already secondary. If the apartment, then .... in the end. Here the apartment was the second.

And how did you manage to get the “coffins” tasks? I read the story in the “Live Journal” that you almost arranged a fight once or there you had a fight at the faculty. Does this correspond to reality?

No, the tasks have nothing to do with it, because I wouldn’t get the task, of course. ... These are just different stories. We basically just saved the tasks. Once there was such a case when we, as they say, stabili, it really was a big list. But basically they calmly collected near the exit from those who were given them. Over the years, they accumulated.

We published every year collections under the mockery name “Selected tasks in the oral exam” and so on. We are not even what we hid, to whom they are given, on the contrary, emphasized this. The mocking name was better than the frontal. We published these selected tasks every year. In the end, publishing equipment was available, and it was always possible to find a person, show him tasks for schoolchildren and give to print. To some extent, a narrow strip of freedom was, which could be wedged into. And this case was propagated, sent to the school’s physical education. And so the tasks were collected.

And with a fight, this is not entirely true. There were no fights, they just really held me by the hands for the fact that I "interfere with taking exams." But it was quite interesting there. There I wrote a statement that I help to write the correct, restrained and so on of appeals that it was formally so. I wrote such a statement, and oddly enough in the police, he was accepted even out of sympathy, maybe they understood what was being done. So they talked a little and released me. So there was no particular fight.

Did you really help applicants write appeals? Did these appeals help?

Of course not. This was part of the same activity. This did not work to such an extent that, for example, you leave the exam in the appropriate state, I am not even saying whether you are right or not, this is another question, but you feel crushed, having received your deuce. They give you an hour for an hour, after an hour and five minutes it will not be accepted for five minutes ... You see, in terms of work, this reminded not even the Soviet courts, but the Soviet persons, these meetings that were sentenced to execution, and you were shot immediately. "I can postpone, will I turn to the Supreme Council?" "No, you will not be a day." That is, they used any opportunity not to miss the [talented schoolboy], and they achieved their own. So the appeals were written, but it was the impact of a pure fiction.

That is, you were engaged in a kind of psychotherapy for the applicant so that he understands that he was not mistaken, but specially overwhelmed?

Absolutely true. And a strip of freedom was no longer narrow, but super narrow. If you managed to appeal, then it is clear that they refuse you, but you could appeal further. And without the first appeal, you could not appeal further. ... Sometimes there were generally unsolvable tasks. I confused the index there, wrote a deuce instead of four, and the solution of the problem is simply unknown to science. And then go to the vice -rector. As a result, we went to complain further.

But it seems to you, what was the impact that there was such a negative selection on the MHMAT MSU?

This is one of the things that simply destroyed Soviet science. You know, when there was a very narrow strip of freedom under Gorbachev, when it seemed that it was possible to deal with the party organs. We had one meeting, it seems, with the Moscow City Committee of the Party, maybe I am mistaken in the authority, but that’s the point, then we talked with them on this subject.

What we reported was completely irrefutable. Before that, they would not listen to. They began to listen to us, I had to listen to us, it could not be ignored. And then we operated on the fact that anti -Semitism is bad. They nodded, but they could not accept my values. And then we used the argument that Soviet science is destroyed by this. See how many dozens of people are now famous in leading Western universities, namely Western ones. This was one of the few arguments that could work somehow. I acted, but then they were already overwhelming more hidden. It was the only effect. Indeed, in the last Gorbachev year they began to disguise themselves.

Can you name the beginning of the “coffins” tasks and their completion? What was the period, can you clarify?

This is indicated by the end of the twentieth anniversary quite accurately.

When the restructuring ended, 1989-1990, when was the last year?

I will not call me a year now, but it was at this time that it began to fade. Again, it was not at all the same .... It faded and somewhere in the year 1990 it ended.

But do I understand correctly that these people who did this are somehow punished, or do they continue to work?

Well, of course, you are not.

And why, when restructuring began, it was impossible to do something?

Firstly, now I would not do it and not. More than a quarter of a century has passed, there are no more people, in the end. Now I would not even call names, except for one name - this is the rector of Moscow State University, who was involved in this.

I know few cases of direct involvement, but I know these people, I can find them if necessary. That he supervised it de facto, no one has any doubt. He is still the rector of Moscow State University, and he suits everyone. This is a typical example of our post -Soviet swamp, which people seemed to be rebuilt, but not repenting the end of the eyelashes ....

And why then does the scientific community find it possible to communicate with it, or rather with these people?

You cannot demand a lot. There are people who did not hide an aversion to this. This affected their career, they did not want to continue to let them continue, because of this they did not let them go. But what is all your life to save down even righteous hatred?

Here another confuses. When they chose this rector, I talked with some people: “Do you understand who you are choosing?” I heard: “We need a good business executive”, then yes. Apparently, this is true. This is some kind of drop of water that reflects our current being. A good business executive, a good business executive was notorious Goering. .... Everything is mixed up, mixed without the slightest concept of repentance.

It seems to you, really, that there are big suspicions that Bella Abramovna Subbotovskaya (1938-1982) was killed?

Very serious, extreme. What is already one fact that the police opened the investigation. A man died, of course. But then suddenly he was closed without explanation. You know, it was a strip, objectively speaking, quite narrow with Andropov.

Because before that, in my century, even under Stalin's times, some legality was still somehow simulated. And there was a gap that was not even simulated. That was exactly the period. The police refused to investigate the case. Do you think the police would refuse to investigate the usual household murder with a truck? Not really. Then there would be no direct refusal, but here he was. And other data, of course, are not direct, but serious and indirect, they all converge precisely to this ( see the article by V. Sentrov about Bella Satur ).

And what role did she play? Why was this murder needed? Why was it even to go to such measures?

I can explain it. She was the soul of this matter. And it was quite clear that if this person was removed, then the case would fall apart. There was nothing to blame her for. But in such times, all the same, in quotation marks are liberal, which for the fact that a person helps children, does sandwiches for them, you can’t punish, you can’t put it in prison. Moreover, the woman was some kind of limiter for such things. That is, on the one hand, a person was very objectionable, but you can’t imagine the reasons to put him. And then what remains?

How did you create your book with Boris Kanevsky? How did the creation of this book go?

A wonderful fact. 1980 - the notorious year of the Olympiad. And then, in order to cleanse Moscow from unwanted presence, various measures were taken. One of them was that all the exams were then in two streams. They handed over to the main universities in July, and then the non -repulsion was handed over to technical universities, including very serious, in the month of August. A break of a month is quite large: you can come to yourself and learn something else.

And in the year of the Olympiad, all exams were arranged at the same time. I do not remember in July or in August, but this is not the point. In short, everything surrendered at the same time. And now not a single Jewish graduate of the leading physical schools in Moscow simply went to Mehmat, everything was known in advance. If they tried before, because there were still some chances, then no one went here. They made up statistics, as we usually did, signs there: who is a Jew, who is not a Jew, some by half, some for a quarter, ... .. This year there simply was no material on matemuts, in spaces open to us.

Then we acted differently: we still wrote not a book, but a large article “Intellectual Genocide” . We gathered several semi -Jews, a quarter of Jews, who were also calculated and did not take, and the full history of their receipt, ISMENTARY exams, and oral exams. This was the essence of the book. And we scored the data according to the MEFI and the physical education, to our surprise, they turned out to be the same exactly quality. It seemed that at the Mehmat, Moscow State University was still worse. It was worse there, but in another: this undisguised ideologization. And the actual data, in general, coincided.

Tell me, what is the fate of the Russian version of the book? I was asked by my colleagues to ask if you had a Russian original, a Russian text, because it came out in the West, and in Russia, as I understand it, it was not published for a long time. Maybe you should think about it, re -make?

Everything that I have left, I transferred to the Memorial. This is the best storage location, and if it survived, it survived there. If you publish, I don’t know whether it will be read today, because there is still actual data that they are today, who and who say?

The problem is that, even today, even today, Mikhail Shifman’s book “You Failed Your Math Test ,. Comrade Einstein” and your book are available only in English. Tasks are "coffins" in many ways only in English. It turns out that the Russian reader, if he wants, should read in English. Of course, I understand that this is not a problem, but ...

Yes, that's right. But I think that in the case of the publication it would be necessary to not automatically issue, it would not work, but to think about a reprint. Because you can’t forget about it. I doubt that simple copying of documents will give something, I doubt it. But, of course, if it is somehow resurrected in essence and reprint differently with comments, then it could be worth it. ( PS see the Russian version of the article by V. Senderov and B. Kanevsky "Intellectual Genocide. Exams for Jews: Moscow State University, MIFT, MIF. Moscow, 1980 ).

Tell us how your fate was going further? In 1982 you were arrested, then there was a court. Why were you arrested?

As they say, of their own free will. Just at this time, I would not say that it was risky, it turned out that the human rights field was somehow empty, it was believed that everyone had already taken it. And therefore, the authorities spoke with triumph: who remained? And it happens so in the war that you need to rush with a fresh stick into battle. And I understood that the regime ends .... maybe he had two years left, maybe ten. ... .. So we must prevent him from drifting, it is necessary to continue the struggle so that it is at least in fact.

... I began to act absolutely openly, this regime is simply in its essence, in its ethics I could not just stand it. ... They already had no other way out [how to plant me].

What did you do? Distributed the "chronicle of current events"?

Well, of course, he distributed, but they calmly closed their eyes to it. And when I began to publish in the same Russian “sowing” article in the West with a call to fight communism, then, as they say, they could not stand it ...

What were the years in prison? I read your stories published in the New World, and it seemed that our correctional system has not changed at all. What they complain about now, the same thing happened before. This was probably a very difficult period for you?

In some ways, it is difficult, in some ways good, as always in life happens. These were 1982-1987. The system, of course, has changed in something better, something worst. You can’t say about this in a nutshell. She, of course, is now different. I have changed, I think, in the sense of political prisoners, this is an important point, because what I will say now, this did not concern criminal cases.

We mainly lived in an atmosphere of formal compliance, if not laws, then at least instructions. And now the situation is simultaneously completely public: here is the phone to the camera, the correspondents come, but then it turned out that everyone was not doing before. This publicity becomes an objective cover for already complete lawlessness. The situation, in general, is terrible. Today there are no such wild landings, in general, for nothing. While I was in Butyrka, in a criminal prison, I sat in a cell where there was not a single criminal. There were no political, my neighbor was just accused for nothing - for a foreign exchange operation, for example. Today this is still not. Therefore, the situation in prisons changes differently, in different directions.

Video recording of an interview with Valery Senterov, part 2. November 14, 2012.

See also:

- The site "Anti -Semitism and the Academy" , which contains materials about the anti -Semitic company upon admission to Soviet universities and the People's University.