"They are impostors"

Member of the Mejlis Ilmi Umarov about the life of Crimea ten months after the annexation

Radio Liberty begins a series of publications on how life in Crimea has changed 10 months after the annexation of the Peninsula of Russia. Our correspondent met with Crimean entrepreneurs, retired officials, with Crimean Tatars and found out how they see the future of Crimea.

Our first hero is a member of the Majlis of the Crimean Tatar people and the comrade-in-arms of the human rights activist Mustafa Dzhemilev, the former head of the Bakhchisarai district, Ilmi Umarov , who in the summer of last year fired without recognizing the new Crimean power.

- What has become for you a boiling point? At what point did you decide to leave the post of head of the district and go nowhere?

- When the local councils and local councils announced the election date, they were scheduled for September 2014. Continue to stay in the civil service when this power is legitimized, I did not consider it necessary. If before the elections the deputies of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea were elected according to the laws of Ukraine, the government was appointed Verkhovna Rada, with a stretch it was possible to continue to coexist and work with them. I understood the elections, there will be a new structure of power and a new administration. But the main obstacle was not the work itself, but the adoption of the oath of a civil servant to the Russian state. I could not afford it.

Member of the Mejlis Ilmi Umarov about the life of Crimea ten months after the annexation

- Does the state officials have an oath, like the military?

- Countries have. The police, the FSB, the prosecutor’s office, and the employees of all administrations are well aware of this.

- Why didn’t they leave before, after March 16, when a referendum on the entry of Crimea in Russia according to the Kremlin version went? The situation has changed, Russian troops took control of almost the entire peninsula, the executive branch has passed under the control of Moscow.

- I thought it would stop all this quickly. I worked for nine years the head of the Bakhchisarai district. Naively assumed that under the influence of the international community, the sanctions did not think that it was enough if two or three world leaders say: "Vladimir Vladimirovich, you are wrong," maybe Russia would reverse.

- You finalized until August 2014, four months in contact with the new regime. What did you remember?

- It struck how the meetings took place. There was a feeling that Ukraine simply does not exist in nature, there is no such country. Crimea fell from somewhere in the sky, he was attached to the Russian Federation, now rivers with jelly shores, cash flows will flow here. And without a twinge of conscience, huge amounts were announced - billions, trillions of rubles that replenish the budget of Crimea. The bridge will be built, airfields will be modernized, agriculture will be raised, not life, but a fairy tale.

“Did you believe it?”

Chopped off the light for 10-12 hours-the collapse in the Crimea occurred

- I did not believe. I gave an interview in which I said, for example, that the Kerch bridge would not be built. This bridge in Ukraine was called - "Elected Bridge". During the presidential and parliamentary elections, various deputy groups or some political parties have always used him, they say, we will come and build this crossing, we will have a connection with Russia and so on to get the Crimean electorate. As for agriculture, it turned out that it was enough to block water from mainland Ukraine, and everything that was promised was to fluff and shattered. Most recently, Ukraine twice turned off the Crimea from electricity at 10-12 hours, I think for the educational purpose it was said: "You, that is, Russians, tell us that Crimea can exist without mainland Ukraine, but try it for 10-12 hours-the collapse in the Crimea has occurred." But given that there is a population here, which Ukraine considers to be its own, somewhere from December 29, and to this day, they have never turned off the light anywhere. Ukraine with understanding relates to these problems and does not want the people to endure any deprivation.

- I heard that in some houses the light, people shouted "Glory to Ukraine!" Have you heard about it?

- Himself like that.

They are impostors

-And yet you worked as an official with the new government.

- Being already under the government of Aksenov, I will not say that he became a Russian official. The transition period was announced before January 1, 2015. For moral reasons, before the New Year, he could finalize. But when they announced the September elections, preparations went to them, I gave a few interviews in which, believe me, I did not bother to criticize the activities or inaction, the competence or incompetence of the new authorities - I simply did not recognize them. Being direct subordination to the head of government Sergei Aksenov, he said that I did not recognize the State Council, I do not recognize the government. They are impostors.

- Aksenov did not send a “self -defense squad” to you here in Bakhchisaray?

- He did not send. On the contrary, when he came to him with a statement, he said to me: "Ilmi Rustemovich, if you keep your mouth shut a little, then we have no complaints about you. You can continue to work." I say: "Do you really understand that I am firing for other considerations. Not because it is difficult for me to work, I can’t cope or something else. I do not want to become a civil servant of the Russian Federation, I do not recognize the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation in Crimea."

- Have you had to deal with Russian special services?

- I was the head of the district and contacted the local Feesbashnik. He was from the Krasnoyarsk Territory, still works, absolutely does not know the problems of Crimea, the Crimean mentality. When we talked with him for the first time, the Chekist was shocked by my usual reasoning that I did not recognize the jurisdiction of Russia, I do not recognize the Aksenov government, and I do not recognize the decision that the so -called State Council makes. After all, the deputies were elected as the Verkhovna Rada and suddenly called the State Council. After the September elections of 2014, this was where it went, and after the referendum they already began to call themselves the State Council. After the resignation, we met with him twice. To his honor I want to say that there were no attempts to persuade me, to change my opinion or there were no threats on his part.

- There was a shock for you when the Ukrainian military massively changed the oath and went to serve in Russian law enforcement agencies?

- It was predictable. 80 percent of military personnel betrayed Ukraine and accepted a new oath, the same number of prosecutors, all the police officers and the SBU (Security Service of Ukraine). This is in my Bakhchisarai district. Only individual people, who I know personally, refused to serve Russia and went to work on the mainland.

- Have you come across among these people who are doubtful, who approached you and said - understand, Ilmi Rustemovich, life is not easy.

- I heard, and more than once. Revelations began at the time when preparations for a referendum were still underway. The head of the police, the Ukrainian civil servant, the Ukrainian policeman comes to me and consults. He knows my position, he knows that I should leave, but it is still incomprehensible whether these have come for a long time.

- Parked you?

- asked for support. I will swear now, and then suddenly something will happen, Ukraine will return. Can you support me so that I will return again, again accepted the Ukrainian oath. Such conversations took place with us, and more than once.

- How did they end?

- Differently. In some situations, I just sent and said that I would never work with people like you if it depended on me. I said some, I know your personal and human qualities, I am ready to support in some situation, if I can. Each case is an individual. In one case, you are ready to support, in the other case - you do not want to see either now, then or yesterday. But all this is in the past. They swore allegiance to Russia, remained the bosses, however, now, not the police, but the police, I did not accept it, left work. There is only one conclusion, neither the Ukrainian state nor the current Russian one should trust such people. This for centuries the prevailing folk wisdom - who betrayed once, will betray more.

- You received a Russian passport. Was it a difficult decision for you?

- A difficult decision, did not want to receive. I have a disease, according to disability, a pension was supposed. During this period, the jurisdiction of the Russian state is already in the Crimea - it is necessary to get a passport or you need to travel outside the Crimea and apply for a pension there, for example, in the Kherson region. I have a disease - parkinsonism. I can’t travel to the mainland every month and engage in paperwork. Household reasons forced me to get this not very desired document.

- Does the Ukrainian passport lie in the nightstand?

- Only I use it, even when I drive through the territory of Russia, I was several times in Kazan, in Moscow only with a Ukrainian document. When I go to the mainland of Ukraine, I also take a Ukrainian passport. I used Russian only to apply for a pension.

- Did the Tatar population of Crimea split after annexation?

- There is no split as such. On the contrary, there was a stronger unity, despite the fact that some Tatars did not receive passports for fundamental considerations. I bow to them. At the same time, I do not support those who left. You can leave your homeland only when there is a threat to life. When there is a threat to business or some less significant reasons, you should not leave. It is better to adapt here, continue to fight on your territory, to endure. At the same time, I do not condemn those who received passports in order to re-register the business, and continues to exist here in some way, to work, even if this is not a civil service, some other work; Doctors, teachers, someone else. They must live here in their homeland.

- You are not working anywhere now, in retirement. What are you going to do?

-I would work, but not for Russia, I would have found some application for myself. Now I don't want to do this. This is a fundamental position. Moreover, I was offered positions outside the Crimea, in the territory of mainland Ukraine, he refused, did not leave.

- The government of Aksenov has officials who represent the Tatar population. What is your attitude to these people?

- These people behaved ugly and wrong. Among them there are even several members of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people. At all times, even with the Ukrainian authorities, we gave the recommendations of the Mejlis for high positions. Several people, contrary to the opinion of the meeting, went to certain positions, for example, the deputy chairman of the State Council of Remzi Ilyasov, the chairman of the Nationality Committee Zaur Smirnov, the deputy mayor in Simferopol Ruslan Yakubov, in some areas there are officials, for example, in the Simferopol district in the district administration, a member of the Majlis went to the deputy. The vast majority of Crimean Tatars consider them people who betrayed the national idea, the Crimean Tatars and went to work in the occupation power.

Most of us consider Crimea the territory of Ukraine

- What, they do not give their hands, turn away from them? The Vice Speaker of the State Council Remi Ilyasov is not just a native of Medzhlis, he was more than ten years as deputy chairman of the Majlis of the Crimean Tatar people, that is, deputy at Mustafa Dzhemilev. What is pushing such people, let's say, to collaboration?

- ambition. When the chairman was elected in Kurultai, after Mustafa Dzhemilev put up the powers, Remi Ilyasov with a slight advantage lost to Rifata Chubarov. Apparently, he could not suffer a defeat, and now somehow he decided to take revenge in his own way.

- Is it possible to name Majlis today by an organization that does not have a resource of influence. Is he demoralized?

- Two leaders of the Mejlis are expelled outside the Crimea. Mustafa Dzhemilev and Rifat Chubarov do not have the right to enter Russia for five years, they are not allowed into Crimea. Although most of us consider Crimea the territory of Ukraine. When two leaders are absent, the element of confusion is present. To say that we are demoralized is not entirely true. Medzhlis meetings are held, applications are accepted regularly. Previously, we often resorted to any active actions-we held rallies, some other events to pay attention to a particular problem. Recently, public actions have ceased due to the fact that repressions against activists have intensified. When Mustafa Dzhemilev was not allowed into the Crimea, several thousand Crimean Tatars gathered on the so -called border near the city of Armenian. Many were fined for fairly large amounts. In order not to substitute people, we have recently stopped attracting them to active events.

- Can we say that the Tatars did everything they could? Or is there any other resistance potential?

- There is always potential. There are social networks, there is a media, there is a public opinion that must somehow be supported. You can never say that they have already done everything. At the time of the referendum, the election, we designated our position - these events ignored. We believe that the referendum was carried out illegally. Since the referendum was carried out illegally, it means that all subsequent decisions, including the decision to make the Republic of Crimea in the Russian Federation, are also illegal. But this all should end with a state of status quo. Moreover, probably, there should be some kind of indemnities-not just the return of the Crimea and part of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions to Ukraine, but also compensation for damage to Ukraine.

- There are different opinions in Crimea. Those who are opposed to Russia dream of that Moscow leave here. But not everyone wants to return to the jurisdiction of Kiev again, there is a war in the Donbass, the economic state is deplorable. Imagine that Russia is gone. What next?

- I stand in position - we need to return to the jurisdiction of Ukraine. You can speculate on this subject. Between Ukraine, which was before the annexation of Crimea both before the invasion of Russia and Ukraine now - a big difference. It must be understood that in Ukraine the biggest problem of the country's independence or so -called independence was the influence of Russia. Always! Both the Russian and the pro -Russian electorate have always existed. For example, when Yanukovych lost Yushchenko with a very small advantage in the presidential election and won Tymoshenko a few years later, this suggests that Russia's influence on Ukraine was very large. Now, after this war and after the annexation of Crimea, I think many Ukrainians who occupy a pro -Ukrainian position will behave more actively. This will be another state, the state of the European image of thinking and, in general, will be part of the European Union.

- You are talking about what is not yet, and there are doubts that such changes are coming. You cannot but notice that no cardinal economic reforms are carried out.

We must continue to stay in the Crimea, on the other hand, we must not accept the occupation power

-In the country in which there is a fierce war and there is a serious influence of a neighboring state, it is difficult to expect some real economic reforms.

- What is the influence of Jamielev Mustafa on the situation in the Crimea? What can be expected from him?

-Mustafa Dzhemilev is the leader of the Crimean Tatar people, despite the fact that he resigned the powers of the Chairman of the Mejlis by age, in health, but he remains indisputable authority in the Crimean Tatar people.

“ What are you expecting from him?” He is a deputy of the Verkhovna Rada? Do you have direct contact with him?

- On the phone. We are talking about everything, including politics, as with you, we don’t even think about what someone is listening or something else. Just some of his recommendations in Crimea at some stage were impossible. He once said that we need to try not to receive Russian passports, take a more radical position on all issues that relate to the presence of the Russian Federation, that is, not to recognize.

- Didn't you listen to him?

- By and large, they did not listen. There are real things that everyday life dictates. He reconciled, of course, but very often it slips that you are not listening to me. We are trying to explain to him the real situation here. On the one hand, we must continue to stay in the Crimea, on the other, we must not accept the occupation power. To the best of our capabilities, we do not accept it. But there are some things that you can’t get around. And in these matters we often have to explain with our leader why most of the population do that. And it is impossible to organize this so that everything happens as Mustafa Dzhemilev thinks, although by and large he is right.

- He would like all 300 thousand Tatars to not receive Russian passports. Was this his directive instruction?

- If you know him personally, you would not ask such a question. He is a person who does not give instructions. It was his opinion. Yes, they would not receive Russian passports and would not participate in the political life of the new Crimea. This position is unchanged.

- Naturally, the Tatars did not listen to him, people need to live, arrange children in school, in kindergarten, work and feed their family.

- By and large, these are not contradictions, these are elements of adaptation to new realities. These topics are discussed every day. We have an elected representative body that accepts relevant statements. Мы знаем, что подавляющая часть населения эту структуру поддерживает – это Меджлис крымско-татарского народа. И если бы не было достаточного влияния у Меджлиса на народ, не было бы необходимости у новой власти создавать новые структуры, которые должны подменить Меджлис. Одно из них – движение "Единство Крыма", основанное бывшим членом украинской "Партии регионов" Сейтумером Ниметуллаевым, другое – общественное движение "Крым" Ремзи Ильясова. В "Крым" вошли практически все, кто не прислушался к Меджлису в вопросе игнорирования выборов. Там депутаты разных уровней – сельского совета, городских советов, Госсовета, чиновники разного масштаба. Можно сказать, все, кто работает в госструктурах. Их просто свозят в один зал, делают большую картинку – вот 300-400 человек собираются в одном зале. На самом деле, мы их всех знаем в лицо. А для другой публики, в том числе для Кремля, хорошая картинка получается.

– А для татар?

– Для татар как красная тряпка. Но думаю, что больше 90 процентов понимают, что это игра.

Никакой альтернативы не получается, и народ расколоть не удается, а наоборот, татары объединяются вокруг своего представительного органа

– Но они же видят, что эти структуры поддерживают власть. Через них можно делать карьеру, есть некая социальная лестница.

– Есть те, кто на это клюют. Не могу точно сказать, какое количество, но я думаю, не более десяти процентов.

– Московская власть выигрывает на этом этапе?

– В привлечении крымско-татарского электората не выигрывает. Она проигрывает – то, что запланировали, пока не получается. У них пошла игра по-другому. Теперь Ремзи Ильясов говорит, что он не выходит из Меджлиса, что он его член, нужно провести новый Курултай, что лидера Меджлиса на месте нет, он находится за пределами. Речь идет о Чубарове. Что нужно выбрать нового председателя или, в крайнем случае, ему, Ремзи Ильясову, дать статус заместителя и сделать его исполняющим обязанности. Вбрасываются такие косточки, которые народ пока не принимает. Каждый этот вброс сопровождается каким-то социальным взрывом против Ремзи Ильясова.

– Власть контактирует с Меджлисом?

– Не контактирует. Власть общается с одной структурой – "Крым". Иногда, по необходимости, по предварительной договоренности, руководители Меджлиса встречаются с кем-то, хоть с руководителями Госсовета, хоть с руководителем Совета министров. Такие контакты происходят, но по конкретным вопросам – где-то нарушение прав, где-то необходимо решить какой-то конкретный вопрос. Сказать, что нет никаких контактов – это будет неправда.

– Что хотят татары от этой власти? Хотят на равных участвовать в политической жизни Крыма или получить какие-то опции для коренного населения в структурах Госсовета, исполнительной власти?

– Повторяю, мы вообще не хотели бы, чтобы эти структуры были у власти в республике. В Крыму должна быть украинская юрисдикция. Мы ничего не хотим от этой власти. Тем более она нечистоплотна. Референдум был 16 марта 2014 года, а 11 марта при участии президента Татарстана Рустама Миниханова Верховная Рада Автономной республики Крым (она еще тогда так называлась) приняла очень интересный документ. В нем говорилось о представительстве крымских татар в количестве 20 процентов депутатского состава и примерно во всех структурах власти. Если бы пошли по этому пути, наверное, в Крыму было бы все нормально. Но пошли наоборот. Провели референдум, приняли решение о присоединении к РФ.

– И забыли про свои обязательства.

– Эти обязательства теперь уже никакой роли не играют, потому что мы в этой структуре участвовать не должны.

– Господин Ремзи Ильясов и его сторонники участвуют.

– Такие люди были во все времена. Вспомните историю национального движения в советские времена, были люди, которые писали письма, подписывали их с осуждением активистов национального движения, с осуждением того, что люди стремились вернуться в Крым. Всегда среди крымских татар находили так называемых "хороших" татар, которых использовали против национального движения. Сейчас настала очередь Ремзи Ильясова и таких, как он.

– Рустам Миниханов, глава Татарстана, имеет какое-то влияние на татарское население в Крыму?

– Влияния на татарское население в Крыму он и раньше не имел. У нас тесных контактов не было. Был короткий период, когда Путин поручил Миниханову немножко курировать Крым, для того чтобы более безболезненно привести Крым в полном составе, в том числе и крымских татар в РФ. У Миниханова вроде бы, до референдума, что-то получалось, мы это сознавали, даже говорили об этом. Потом у нас было много поездок. Я был главой Бахчисарайского района. Татарстан курирует Бахчисарайский район в этот, условно говоря, переходный период. Но потом Путин посчитал, что крымские татары плохо влияют на казанских татар, и быстренько отдалил Миниханова и Татарстан от проблем Крыма в целом. Только Бахчисарайский район, где компактно проживают татары, у них остался как курируемый регион. And all. Мысль о том, что крымские татары плохо влияют на казанских татар, имеет под собой почву. Когда мы ездили отдельно делегацией Меджлиса, Миниханов принимал нас на высшем уровне. У нас была протокольная официальная встреча. После этого отношения как-то немножко стали остывать.

– Правильно ли я понял, что Путин побоялся, что ваше общение с Минихановым скорее подорвет ситуацию в Татарстане, нежели успокоится ситуация в Крыму?

Обещанных зарплат нет, цены значительно выросли

– Я думаю, что именно так и произошло. В одном из разговоров Миниханов обронил фразу: "Мы вынуждены общаться и с Путиным, и с его командой, с его людьми. Мы для того, чтобы народу расчищать путь в развитии, идем на какие-то уступки. И вы должны также поступать". Это был основной его довод в попытках влиять на нас. Он больше в Крым не приезжал. Поручений Путин ему, видимо, после этого уже никаких не дает. Больше делает ставку на таких, как Рамзан Кадыров.

– Рамзан Кадыров имеет какое-то влияние на крымскую ситуацию?

– На крымскую ситуацию он влияния не имеет.

– На что вы рассчитываете? Что может переменить настроение людей?

– Обещанных зарплат нет, цены значительно выросли. Думаю, что для обывателей это самая серьезная оценка ситуации. Если покупательная способность твоей зарплаты значительно снизилась, это касается не только крымских татар, но и всего населения Крыма. Был активный период, люди повесили триколоры в машину. Где-то за пару недель до Нового года потихоньку, смотрю, флажки исчезли. Цены растут, свет отключают. По заработным платам пошли проблемы, автобусное сообщение с материком закрыли, поезда ходить перестали. Это еще не открытый протест, но где-то на подсознательном, на эмоциональном уровне уже какие-то процессы начинаются в Крыму тоже. Сказать, что недовольство массовое, пока еще рановато. Но первые признаки с этим новогодним салютом я для себя прочувствовал.

- What do you mean?

– Я был поражен в новогоднюю ночь, когда в Бахчисарае салютов в час ночи, то есть по киевскому времени это полночь, было не меньше, чем в 12 по московскому времени. И это произошло там, где живу я, в многоэтажках, где подавляющее население – русские и украинцы. В частном секторе, где население пополам, было гораздо больше салютов по киевскому времени, чем по московскому. Это был своеобразный протест. Так рождается оптимизм.