The year of the Donbass crisis

Vitaly Portnikov: A year has passed since the so -called referendum on the independence of the people's republics of Donbass. The year, which has become the time of hostilities, attempts to peaceful settlement. Until now, the situation cannot be called not only normalized, but even clarified. We will talk about all this in the framework of the joint project of the Russian service of Radio Liberty and the Ukrainian Service of the Radio Liberty "Donbass. Realities". Together with my colleague Alexei Matsuka, we will talk with the publicist from Lugansk Sergey Ivanov. Sergei, like Alexei, has been in the Ukrainian capital for the whole year, but they are actively engaged in topics related to the situation in the region. Is it possible to say that the irrevocable process of separation of these territories that are not controlled by Ukraine has begun, with the rest of the country?

This territory has always been traditionally controlled by the existing political elite and was regarded as a little principality for managing only the necessary, proven people

Alexey Matsuka: I believe that this process could be observed in one form or another not only before the so -called referendum or before the start of the armed conflict. Problems with the integration of Donetsk and Lugansk regions in the general Ukrainian process were before that. Everyone remembers the situation perfectly when in the city of Donetsk any word in Ukrainian in a public place caused a suspicion, but a certain discomfort. In the same way, intolerance was manifested in relation to any dissent. It is enough to recall that in Donetsk and Lugansk, in fact, before the advent of the Internet there was not only opposition, but also critical of the local elite of the media. Since 1998, when Viktor Fedorovich Yanukovych began to lead the Donetsk region, an information umbrella was created there, any dissent in the media was suppressed. In fact, we have never seen the presence in the local political space of this opposition force. Was the standing opposition could not appear in the 7-millionth Donbass? Of course, I could. But this territory has always been traditionally controlled by an existing political elite and was regarded as a little principality for managing only necessary, proven, important people.

Vitaly Portnikov: Sergey, you also think that the principality remains in the hands of those who led them before the events of 2013-2014, at least if we talk about Lugansk?

Lugansk and Donetsk are completely different regions

Sergey Ivanov: Lugansk and Donetsk, despite the fact that they are very close, are completely different regions. We have such as Alexei, we have never been flashing anti -Ukrainian sentiments. Donetsk was distinguished by the presence of a clear vertical, subordinate to corruption clans and guarded by cerberus-siloviki on all sides, and if necessary, militants. In Lugansk, in principle, this was not there, there was a more chaotic Brownian movement. Above us was set by the watching Efremov , who squeezed all the juices from the Lugansk region - and that’s all. Just four months before the start of the Maidan, I made a report on the Day of Independence from the Central Square, Ukrainian choirs, Ukrainian groups performed there. Nearby, the Cossacks threw strong alcohol here, who then stood at the forefront of the separatist movement. That is, by and large, Lugansk was a kind of Brownian environment in which everyone existed as he wanted. No one has ever brought aggression to this in life.

Referendums were not actually held

And referendums were not actually held. The mayor of the city of Kravchenko, which now lives in Kyiv, then in Dnepropetrovsk, gathered all the communal region, all directors of schools subordinated to local city authorities, ordered to provide premises for the so -called referenda. One woman, the director of the school, refused, she was taken, put in the basement of the SBU. I wrote a lot about this then, and together we managed to pull it out. They wanted to go to the agrarian areas, but they were met by local self -defense, formed from ordinary peasants. They arrived there, they say: we are fulfilling the task of Russia. We need to put the flag, take a picture and slowly run away. Well, raise, take a picture. They raised for 5 minutes, photographed and left. Such synthetics is inherent in all these processes.

I never felt hostility. I could quite calmly put on a T -shirt with the Ukrainian emblem

I never felt hostility. I could quite calmly put on a T -shirt with the Ukrainian emblem. It seems that the trigger was lowered, then all this began. Some invisible demiurge (although he is well known to us) pulled for these threads. At a certain stage, it was possible to stop all this, but now these people are disconnected by blood. Zhovtnevy district of the city of Lugansk includes the city of happiness, which is the outpost of our armed forces. Residents of this area (and I lived there at one time) are simply divided in half. A lot of my acquaintances, completely ordinary people, teachers, and intelligentsia died. These people really believe that the Ukrainian army deliberately shot at them. Suppose a site journalist, with whom I previously collaborated, says: "I perfectly understand why they bombed my house - because before that I had a mortar calculation for two hours and shot in the direction of the Ukrainian troops."

Alexey Matsuka: Two years ago, in Donetsk, the march of the opposition "Get up, Ukraine" was supposed to take place. The local regional organization of the Party of Regions , together with the city organization of this political force, put children's horizontal bars, volleyball sites on Oktyabrskaya Square, invited children from neighboring schools. If we say that the Russian army is hiding behind our residential buildings, fellow countrymen, women, children, then the Party of Regions was covered by sports children's events, only in order to prevent the opposition march. Absolutely the same methodology of terror against an ordinary citizen.

Today she is standing with a DPR bow, yesterday she stood with a St. George ribbon, and the day before yesterday - with a bow of the Party of Regions

Today, one goal is to maintain their influence, even at the level of chairmen of regional committees of trade union organizations in the city of Donetsk. For example, Asya Gorshkova leads the trade union, she also led him under Viktor Fedorovich. Today she is standing with a bow of the DPR, yesterday she stood with a St. George ribbon, and the day before yesterday - with a bow of the Party of Regions. That is, people remained the same. For them, apparently, not an ideological component is important, but it is important to simply maintain their own position. For this, the same methods are used that, unfortunately, were used in the political struggle, and now in the military - by children and residential buildings. If it were a competitive political environment, could they get, as they say, such a majority of supporters? Only with weapons in their hands today they manage to restrain the political struggle.

Sergey Ivanov: The ratio of warring representatives (of course, their main mass from Russia, but there are representatives of other countries and local ones)-about 80 by 20, that is, 20% of the Luhansk residents.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Imagine the unrealistic: here is the Ukrainian control, and the mood of the population, which passed through military trials, through the blood, through the bombing, which did not live with the Ukrainian people, this time of the formation of statehood that is happening in the country - how is it glued?

We understand who provoked bloodshed: the Russian army entered

Sergey Ivanov: For this you will need a very long time. I think that, most likely, it will be a matter of generations. We understand who provoked bloodshed: the Russian army entered. But it is difficult for a person who received a shell in a summer kitchen to explain something. This is Jesuity, the most sophisticated insidiousness of Putin’s plan is to divide people with blood.

Alexey Matsuka: When, on a vote in the Verkhovna Rada, the question was whether to recognize or not recognize the terrorists of the DPR and LPR group, People's Deputy Tatyana Bakhteeva (Opposition Bloc) said that we cannot recognize the residents of Donbass as terrorists. It is elementary, a substitution of concepts: no one speaks of the inhabitants of Donbass, we are talking about specific armed illegal formations, such as “DPR”, “pennant”, “Sparta”, “LPR” and others, 37 organizations. Thanks to such statements of irresponsible Ukrainian politicians, there is a substitution of concepts and constant speculation on terms.

It is necessary to study the situation at a statistical, scientific basic level

It is necessary to study the situation at a statistical, scientific basic level. As soon as there is clarity and understanding of what is happening, and it will not look like you and I play the role of some propagandists, imposing our opinion on one or another reason, people will understand on their own economic basis that there really was a gap between the feeling of statehood here and the feeling of statehood there. But this gap could be understood by one hundred percent if there were no Internet and communication methods. Today in Donetsk you can absolutely calmly receive a signal of two central Ukrainian television channels for a regular etheric antenna, but these people do not want to receive it. There is an Internet, communication - what we have on top of the barriers that propagandists are trying to put on both sides.

You need to let Donbass feed yourself. They want - please

Sergey Ivanov: Suppose a resident of the city of Novoidar or Starobelsk will dismiss, excuse me, with the lower underwear from the term "Donbass". Donbass is a purely geological definition. It is no coincidence that those cities and those areas where the richest coal deposits, where the border and so on, were occupied. Therefore, you need to allow Donbass to feed yourself. They want - please. We need to agree to all conditions - do not list anything here, do not need. Just let's decide in the definitions that there is Donbass - Perevalsk, Anthracite, Red Ray? The ideal option is that we really go through the decentralization of the authorities, which was declared by the president, the head of the Verkhovna Rada and the party. Let the Donbass feed itself, we do not mind. It’s just that I, as a person who lived in the Donbass for 27 years, I know perfectly well that Swatovo will feed himself and Starobelsk will feed himself, even up to the point that they will go into natural economy, but they will not starve. Eating the bread that you grow, eat the meat of the animals that you grow is much easier than eating coal.

Donetsk is a territory where not only supporters of the DPR or other exotic groups live

Alexey Matsuka: Do not forget that Donbass is a conditional name. The same Donetsk is one million people. Let it be less left today, but, nevertheless, these are citizens of Ukraine. One way or another, attention from the state of Ukraine should be to these people. I believe that a certain package of opportunities is needed so that people can leave this territory, settle in new territories. Unfortunately, today we have this cancer tumor on the body of Ukraine in the form of occupied areas of Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Unfortunately, there is a transformation, integration and fusion of concepts and images: that the DPR and Donetsk are the same thing. But this is not the same thing. The DPR is a group that seized power in the city of Donetsk. Donetsk is a territory where not only supporters of the DPR or other exotic groups live. From isolated cases, we get a tremendous number of problems that Ukraine needs to continue and further disassemble in parts. Will Ukraine be ready for such an analysis and, first of all, to the look inside itself?

Sergey Ivanov: I faced only one positive example of reintegration. The chairman of the village, 60 or 70 kilometers from Kyiv, suggested: I have empty at home, I give them free, they are really draws, we will legalize them, come. But we give you the lands of the Earth. I fill the village in this way. As far as I know, no one wanted to go. Those people who can work on Earth remained on Earth.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Recently, on the streets of one of the cities of France, I met your fellow countrymen who asked for political asylum there and now, as I understand it, are expected to consider this issue by the Government of the French Republic. And they say that in this city there are a lot of people who left the Luhansk region from Lugansk. Here people go to Europe, and they are pro-Ukrainian, but they did not find for themselves the opportunity to exist in the conditions of Ukraine itself, and there they had some opportunities, familiar to give children to school, to find temporary application. They told me that there are a huge number of people who support Russia, support the DPR and LPR, and they also went there. And to the question, why didn’t you go to Russia, these people say that it is bad to live in Russia.

In the post -Soviet injury, one of the characteristic features is paternalism

Alexey Matsuka: What is the state for? To be comfortable for their citizens, create certain conditions for existence. As for the impossibility of organizing business on Earth, it is natural. Do not forget what history of Ukraine as a whole is a post -Soviet injury, in the post -Soviet injury one of the characteristic features is paternalism. And the paternalism itself does not allow you to be absolutely independent, especially in changing conditions. Why not a forced migrant think that a forced exit is a great chance for self -improvement. Often we slide to the assessment that someone is to blame, but not us.

Lugansk is a city, frozen in amber around 1982

Sergey Ivanov: Even I (like many) had the feeling that I sacrificed something. For the sake of my homeland, Ukraine, I left the region almost completely occupied by Russian troops. The question of my personal security is already the second, for me it was primary rejection of this aesthetics. When I came here, there were problems with employment. You just learn to work more. I don’t know how Donetsk, but Lugansk is a city, frozen in amber around 1982. It seems to you that everything is fine, there are native flags, native faces around you, you hear the Ukrainian language. And then you understand that here, in principle, little is changing.

We must admit that our corruption really continues. How much we tried to make a law on lustration, but so far most of these people are not lustrated. There were prerequisites for people to be disappointed, even having left Donetsk. And so, disappointed there, disappointed here, they leave. Some are trying to fight further. In addition, we know this audience very well, which is already preparing a revenge. While in Dnepropetrovsk there is a germ between those proteges of the president and the power that was there, Vilkul , one of the leaders of the so -called opposition bloc, just sits, does nothing and considers electoral points.

Vitaly Portnikov: I think, an opposition block, who has so many supporters, could become a kind of bridge?

Alexey Matsuka: The opposition block does not offer any agenda for forced immigrants.

Sergey Ivanov: This is a bridge in Kerch. It will be something ephemeral where a huge amount of money will be buried. We understand that all members of the Ukrainian opposition bloc are a sponge that simply absorbs everything that is around with financial flows. Take Natalya Royal - this is my countrywoman, she even made her husband a deputy - she probably hardly earned it. They try to try on this role. All these funds that are created, and then it turns out that their founders are Kolesnikov, Geminiok ... And then 12 million are found in the relatives of Gemini. We know that this is not the money that people donate to humanitarian assistance.

Alexey Matsuka: A photograph from Donetsk is very indicative: on the so -called day of the republic there is a column, and it is leaded by a former deputy chairman of the Voroshilovsky district in the city of Donetsk, he has a sixth iPhone, such a large tube. This person tells how people in the city need food, water and everything else. This is blasphemy.

Donbass understands two languages - the language of strength and language of money

Sergey Ivanov: I think that you need to let go. If you do not love the woman with whom you live, then I must say - that's it. No need to impose anything, no aggressive policy needs. Donbass understands two languages - the language of strength and language of money. Unfortunately, we cannot show the force to Donbass, because we are clearly inferior to the Russian army. The more we will use the strength, the more strength will arrive across the open boundaries. Therefore, let's let Donbass understand the language of money - let the Donbass earnings. Самое главное – добиться через все международные институции, через ООН, с помощью Штатов, Великобритании, Германии, здесь должна пахать наша дипломатическая служба... Важно, чтобы русские ушли, чтобы эти республики не были легитимизированы, не были признаны никем, кроме непризнанных же республик Осетии, Абхазии и так далее, чтобы они не были признаны официальными субъектами международного права. Как только русские уйдут, мы скажем: Донбасс, никаких проблем нет. Вы снова хотите себе Ефремова? Забирайте. Вы хотите Тихонова ? Please. Только с них спрос. Донбасс решил поиграть в самостоятельность.

Виталий Портников: Он решил или за него решили?

Сергей Иванов: Это как 16-летний старшеклассник – два метра ростом, косая сажень в плечах, – и он думает, что способен сделать все. Но у него, к сожалению, не хватает ни жизненного опыта, ни интеллектуального багажа, ни знаний. То же самое Донбасс. Я когда-то привел такую метафору, что это огромный детина, который, проснувшись с похмелья, решил, что может сам собой управлять. Давайте мы примем закон о Донбассе, установим административные границы этого образования, но оно будет, естественно, в составе Украины.

Алексей Мацука: Если они не начнут атаку.

Советский Союз, просуществовал 40 лет после войны на запретах. And what? Он развалился

Сергей Иванов: Если они начнут атаку, то завтра нас всех мобилизуют и все это закончится. Это уже будет полноценная война, которая очень скоро превратится в континентальную. Политика запретов никогда ни к чему хорошему не приводила. Посмотрите: Советский Союз, просуществовал 40 лет после войны на запретах. And what? Он развалился.

Алексей Мацука: Я считаю, что не так все просто – отпустить или не отпустить. What to do next? Одного универсального ответа, к сожалению, не существует. Это многоголосье миллионов людей, которые являются, с одной стороны, жертвами информационной войны, потребителями российского контента за многие годы до этого, – естественно, теперь это выражается в определенном мировоззренческом ощущении. В то же время мы с большой Украиной не смогли предложить нечто конкурентное, что могло бы заполнить духовный вакуум для этих людей, сказать, что "мы свои, и вы свои".

Сергей Иванов: Духовный вакуум в Красном Луче прекрасно замещает водка.

Виталий Портников: Донбасс же не состоит из одного Красного Луча и из тех, кто пьет водку, люди же разные.

Сергей Иванов: Донбасс – это в основном такие люди, к моему большому сожалению. Я объездил весь Донбасс.

Алексей Мацука: Я тоже ездил по многим городам Донецкой области – мы проводили журналистские расследования. Я могу сказать, что объединяет и Донбасс, и все остальные регионы Украины – это коррупция. Но объединяет и желание людей жить без коррупции, в справедливом обществе. При том, что одним из тезисов так называемой "русской весны" и было стремление – давайте построим справедливое общество без олигархов и коррупции. Правда, их в очередной раз обманули.