Mikhail Gorbachev: "My credo is without blood"

This is not the first interview with Gorbachev The New Times - the fourth*. In the previous ones, we talked exclusively about politics, in this I wanted to get away from the gained sounds, to talk first of all about himself. From which, what stories, emotions, experiences are woven by a person who was not afraid to free himself and gave the right to choose another - for the first time in a thousand years of Russian history - answers before you

Hereinafter Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev during an interview with the Gorbachev Foundation , Moscow, February 17, 2016

Mikhail Sergeyevich, they say that at your last meeting with (Prime Minister of Great Britain in 1979-1990) Margaret Thatcher, she asked you: “Mikhail, do you still want to ruin?” It was ten years ago. And you replied: "No, that you, I am fed up, even more." To be honest: Mikhail Sergeyevich, there is no desire to steer?

No.

At all? You did not stay at the very top for long - only six years ...

You know, I have passions for power, for steering - it is not inherent in me. Well, besides, I stayed in politics for 55 years.

On its circles

Now you have no feeling deja vu: optimists are talking about a new Cold War, pessimists - that Europe is waiting for a big and quite hot?

Firstly, I confirm that the legacy of the Cold War penetrates ... I will tell you this way: I thought a lot on this subject, and it still seems to me that still responsible people come to the management of states.

Someone will object to you and say that in Russia the three-year-olds in power, which brought the country to international isolation and sanctions.

You won’t get me, I will tell you what I want to say. I wrote about this in the book “After the Kremlin”: accident - that’s what I am afraid of.

“I have passions for power, for reduction - it is not inherent in me. Well, besides, I stayed in politics for 55 years "

Do you mean something like a Caribbean crisis?

No, the Caribbean crisis was a policy, Kennedy and Khrushchev just showed an example of how to solve such crises. I'm talking about something else - about the danger of technical accident. And besides, now nuclear weapons may be in the hands of soldered adventurers. It causes me fears that, speaking of local wars, someone is allowing the use of nuclear weapons in their doctrines-and ours recorded this in their defense doctrine ... So I want to say that such a war will end when we will no longer beg, overwhelm the planet. So I was accused of compromising Gorbachev de ... I remember when I first met with (40 US President Ronald) Reagan in Geneva (November 19, 1985), they began to talk, then I generally thought that nothing would work out for us. I went out of conversation for a break, the guys ask me: "Well, what is the impression, Mikhail Sergeyevich?" I tell them: "A real dinosaur from those times." And (American weekly) Newsweek wrote that Reagan said about me: "Gorbachev is a durum of the Bolshevik." This is not at all like that, because I was not a solid -faced, I just thought that I had to go on compromises, agree. And now it is impossible to allow the revival of the militarization - and the militarization is undergoing politicians, and consciousness, and the renewal of weapons is going on. But Reagan and I wrote down then: a nuclear war is unacceptable, there can be no winners in it.

Do Russian wars want?

No. People are afraid. And they want those who profit from this and fearing, as if not to lose this opportunity, this cash flow that goes into their pockets. I then (to perestroika. - NT ) traveled around the country, met people, people said: "We have been a lot of, war, hunger, survive difficulties now, but most importantly, that there is no war."

Crimean battles

Obviously, something over the past quarter of a century has changed in Soviet people ... So you, Mikhail Sergeyevich, warmly supported the annexation of Crimea, followed by a war in the east of Ukraine, stretched relations with the entire post-Soviet world, including even Lukashenko, international obstruction. Do you still think that this was the right decision-the accession of Crimea to Russia?

When the union broke up - then it was necessary to agree.

Agreed.

Crimea is part of Russia.

But then they did not agree, and then there was a Budapest agreement ...

Here is a person in front of you, who has half of his parents - Ukrainians, half - Russians, from Voronezh. Raisa is generally a Ukrainian, I later found out when I asked me to find papers, what Secretary General could find: she was written Russian and considered herself Russian. And they brought me the work of her grandfather - he was a Ukrainian, but was considered Russian. And mother is also Ukrainian. When I wanted to annoy her, I told her: “I now understand that when you are harmful, it is because you are a crest.”

Not too political correct.

Well, this is a joke ... In general, we lived a beautiful life, so I'm scared, I still can’t calm down.

Did you feel good together?

Yes. Very.

The Crimea was followed by a war in eastern Ukraine. You, the President of the USSR, could someday imagine that we would fight with Ukraine?

Now, if you will not be offended, we are friends ... I will tell you this way: “subsequently” is not necessarily the same as “because of that.” Of course, it is impossible for the Russians to shoot Ukrainians, and vice versa. We need to those who pushes us to this, remove from the political arena. It is necessary to look for options, talk, negotiate to Ukraine and Russia.

You said that you are happy, that Crimea is Russian again, is it so?

Yes. Do you know Ukrainian songs?

No.

About grandfathers

Well, what are you! You did not even pay attention that I sang a song that is from my mother. Mother Ukrainian, mother was an amazing woman, a beautiful woman, with Khokhlatsky with such a strong Ukrainian character. I didn’t want to marry my father, but two grandfathers gathered, then there was no stable democracy, they hit, and that’s all, and that’s the matter ... Just as I was Victor for two weeks, my father and mother called me.

Victor?

Yes. Well, I was born, and they called Victor. And then we went to baptize to the next village of Sumynitskoye, because in the bell, the Communists already destroyed the church. Then it was the Rostov region. And when they finished all this, swimming, dripping, the priest asks: how to call? Grandfather Andrei, my father of my father, Klumen-man, said: Mikhail. My friends tell him: what are you, Mikhail, this is Moisha, a Jewish name. Much later, I found an old book, published in (tsarist) Russia, more: it is written that Michael means an equal or similar to God. Look carefully at me (laughs) ...

Do you wear a cross?

Parents did not save?

There is no one to ask. But I held an open position, I spoke everywhere: I am baptized and so on. I had a grandmother, mother, very believing. Two families were very believers. But the father of the mother became a communist with all the ensuing consequences. Nevertheless, both in the house, in the hut, and not in the house, and in another there were rooms, rooms, where only grandfather and grandmother were. There were huge corners where there were iconostases, lamps, prayed, father, when he was a baby, also prayed very much.

Did you know prayers?

No. But I read literature, I have a gospel, and the Qur'an,

And you never had the need to go to confession or to the church - put a candle, slant sins, talk to the priest?

No. But I still have what comes from my grandfather. Here was the grandfather, the old communist, the creator of the collective farms, the leader, then sentenced him to execution, but, thank God, he remained alive. He had it like this: those corners - there is an iconostasis, and here is a table, the main characters in religion - and Lenin, Stalin.

In terms of?

Everything is nearby. He was excluded from the party for this. And this is an example for me - my grandfathers, especially mother. A stunning person, an amazing person.

About God

Raisa Maksimovna was also not religious?

No. Although I read a course about religion - scientific atheism, it was preparing, I studied everything.

How do you feel about the idea of ​​God now?

I think this is a personal issue, everyone should solve for themselves, this is a matter of faith, not science. How do you feel?

It seems to me that determinism is obvious.

I really supported, in fact, the initiator was to restore our religion in all rights. Restored. I was the initiator of the development of a law on the freedom of religion, on freedom of religion. All this was done. And I respect the people of believers. But it so happened that I went along another road. And you see ...

"And what would you say to Raisa Maksimovna?" - "Return"

But you can’t help but think about what is there - outside of life, Mikhail Sergeyevich?

I gave an interview to Pozner. He asks me: “If it turned out that you can talk to someone who is no longer on the phone, who would you like?” I say: “In vain you ask a question, Vladimir Vladimirovich, because you know my answer: with Raisa.” So I would not mind. But for me ...

And what would you say to Raisa Maksimovna?

Return.

Secrets of the Secretary General

Are there things that you are now afraid to speak, or for other reasons you will never say? Are there secrets that will leave you?

Eat. Because I am the president, and there are laws protecting these secrets. Each president who left his post has such secrets.

There are many such secrets?

Don't think. Especially now, after publicity.

You probably have insomnia ...

No?

And you sleep without sleeping pills?

I don't drink sleeping pills. Thanks to the qualities that I had and I have, I pulled out that colossal load - the load when it was necessary to stretch the country out of the erroneous rut ​​into which it fell. Pull the country and open to the world. I think there is no exaggeration when they say that Gorbachev laid the foundation for a change in the world.

Undoubtedly.

You have difficulty, but said.

It’s not true: I always thought so, but I also believed that you were late, that it was possible and necessary to make this turn to the world and earlier and earlier.

Zhenya, Zhenya, I know you.

So, when you are left alone with you, the thought receives you: “This was not necessary to do this”? In other words, are there any actions, decisions that you would like to cross out of your biography?

I was often asked: "If you returned there and there, then ...?" And I always say: I would do everything the same, the choice would be the same, but I would have corrected a lot.

For example?

Well, I did not do what I had to do. For example, I was raised three times about the mismatch, and at the Plenum (Central Committee of the CPSU) they organized such a way against me that the entire plenum rattled. I got up and left, said: That's it! And it was necessary not to return. The party began perestroika, but there were those who later fought with me.

About the KGB

And you do not think that you, while you were in force, have to begin the reform of the second strongest institute of the USSR - KGB? You understood the power of the KGB, and it was the Committee that then arrested you in Foros and tried to arrange a coup in the country. Or was it impossible?

Freedom, democracy, this was, and there is a struggle. I will tell you about one of my conversations with (the chairman of the KGB of the USSR in 1967-1982, General Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee in 1982-1984) Yuri Andropov.

He was a member of the Politburo, and I was still the Stavropol secretary (the head of the Stavropol Territory. - NT ), it never occurred to me that the mission that had fallen to fall out. So, I told him: “Yuri Vladimirovich, take, I say, the last photo before going to the mausoleums on past November holidays and look at the faces of these people. There are no less than 70 years there, and if there is someone younger, it is still an average age of 70. But there is no forest without a undergrowth, ”I tell him. And until he passed away, he reminded me of this: "Well, a undergrowth?" And when I was elected secretary of the CPSU Central Committee, he said: “I congratulate you. But now you are no longer a undergrowth. ” I think I answered your question.

That is, you did not think that the KGB should be eliminated in the form in which it existed?

I did not have such an opinion.

Then it was August 1991, Foros, tanks on the streets, GKChP. After all this, it was necessary to carry out lustration?

So I was gone there.

About yourself

Are there any actions for which you are ashamed now?

But I will not tell you about them.

And what actions make up the subject of your pride?

All that I did as part of a perestroika policy, I think this is a great merit of everyone who was.

You can name three of your decisions that you were hardly given, but for which you say to yourself: “Well done, you managed”?

When I gathered after the funeral of Konstantin Ustinovich Chernenko (March 1985. - NT ) and almost all the first secretaries of the fraternal parties came to the funeral (the ruling parties of the so -called countries of the people's democracy - the socialist camp. - NT ), I gathered them separately and said: “I am grateful to you that you show solidarity with us, it is very important for us. But I want to ask you, we will not command you: each party has, responsibility, solve your questions, answer. We will fulfill all the concluded contracts. ” Because we helped them - with oil, both of them and the third. So it was done. Already when they began to change, and so many difficulties, problems ... And five people called, in turn. I told everyone almost the same thing: "As you think, do so, we will support you."

What do you think, what is your strongest quality?

I think this thing is not mine to give myself such estimates.

But you are soberly evaluating yourself.

Not mine, but society, it must evaluate. One society said: a wimp, a sour secretary, and so on. And I - no. Such a country with all its very complex history, which was complicated in structure in all respects, and the economy, and the people, and so on, and so on, and so that there wasn’t jelly, but the bulldozer, it was impossible to imagine the worst option to imagine. This is my credo: without blood.

To say: I won’t go to the blood, and do not go to the blood - this is almost all. Here Boris Nikolaevich, he shot the parliament, and then did not investigate the reasons why the parliament was shot. This devil knows that, some kind of madness. So at the same time, the Gekachepists were also released, those who made a revolution. And then they find out who ruined the Soviet Union.

You are angry, and yet what is your quality - quality - would you like people to see, understand in you?

I am a man of freedom. Freedom of choice, freedom of religion, freedom of speech - freedom, freedom, let them shoot me, I will not refuse it.

“The TV stopped watching, because all sorts of shows were arranged for me. Either vulgarity, or yell everything on top of each other "

You were familiar with many world leaders. Who was especially cute to you? By the way, Raisa Maksimovna was not jealous of Margaret Thatcher?

Well, what are you. Yes, there is no this question, it did not exist.

Who was it easy to deal with?

Mitteran (President of the French Republic in 1981-1995. - NT ). The relationship with Mitterin was serious.

And the Germans? If you liked it?

Not good.

Reagan?

With him, my relationship has changed for the better. I remember we talked with him, and he began to read a notation for me. I told him: “I am not a schoolboy, you are not a teacher. I am not the defendant, you are not a prosecutor. " And he understood.

Bush Sr.?

Yes.

Was there someone who was actively unpleasant to you?

There are no such ones, because at this level there cannot be such an approach. I can’t stand it ... What is your business? People, his people, chose him.

What lies on a table near the bed?

A lot of books lies, stacks, directly covered. I read a lot. It is important for me not to miss what is happening with the world: I get twelve newspapers and magazines.

Write letters?

No. All books are dictated. Maybe that's why the language has become better, it was freed, I overcame this dryness of the party language. Dictated, deciphered, and I edit.

Watch the TV?

Almost no. I stopped watching the TV, because all sorts of shows were arranged for me. Either vulgarity, or screaming everything on top of each other.

Movie?

Yes. I love political cinema. "House of cards", for example.

Do you turn on the music when you work?

Yes, I turn on, I can work to the music, only quieter.

Are you singing in a do?

No. I sang when I shaved, and in particular, “foggy morning”, I really liked it.

And did not cut?

It doesn't matter, I can no longer look, shave. Raisa says (about the “morning of the foggy”, Gorbachev said just that: he says): “Perestroika anthem.” But in the first place, probably, it is still standing “Gori, Gori, My Star” is a beloved mother, I still began to listen to her with a kid, and when I became adults, I dug up, I found everything: “The mountain is high, and Popid Gay Gai” (sings the line).

Do you use the computer?

I use it.

On social networks, say, Facebook, go?

If you could call Putin now, what would you tell him?

What was needed, I told him recently - we met at the anniversary of Russia Today. We always had a normal relationship with him. Now I will not say that they are abnormal - they simply do not.

Who would you like to finish with?

With Raisa. We did not talk a lot with her.

* No. 25 of June 23, 2008, No. 7 dated February 28, 2011, No. 38 of November 19, 2012

Photo: Alexey Antonenko