The former Prime Minister of Ukraine Nikolai Azarov, hiding in Moscow, gave an interview with Novaya Gazeta

The former Prime Minister of Ukraine hiding in Moscow gave an interview to the specialist Pavel Kanygin

With the former Prime Minister of Ukraine and the founder of the Party of Regions Nikolai Azarov, I meet in his office on the cow's shaft (one of the respectable regions of Moscow - approx. Ed.). Recently, the politician reminded of himself, announcing the creation of the government in exile - the “Committee for the Salvation of Ukraine”. The government is currently stationed in several rooms with a view of the Lukoil gas station, in clear weather, however, there is a view of the monument to Lenin.

Nikolai Azarov himself sits at the table in the office of about 3.5 by 3.5 meters, in the dressing room a secretary girl brews tea. Instead of the planned forty minutes, the head of the government in exile Nikolai Yanovich answers my questions about ten ten.

At the same time accepting calls to mobile phones (there are several of them on the table): it tells someone about the Moscow snowfall (“As you know, the monthly rainfall has fallen in Moscow, I can linger ...”), then gives valuable tips (“just put it in an envelope and do not have to complicate”).

Confidence and grip truly government-and you will not say that in exile.

The conversation was not easy. In the middle of the record, Nikolai Azarov wanted to interrupt the interview, calling my questions to be biased. The ex-Prime Minister called other questions stupid and left the answer-how, say, the question of his unexpected participation in the Maidan 2004. But at the end of the conversation he gave a book of memoirs.

- After your application for the creation of the “Committee for Salvation of Ukraine”, you were announced by a criminal and a criminal case ...

- I was declared a criminal even earlier. Why such a reaction? After the coup in Ukraine, targeted stripping of the political field was made. What is the purpose of the coup? Of course, not European integration of Ukraine, not reform and not development. This was not interested in anyone. The goal was to make Ukraine a state hostile to Russia. To do this, it was necessary to remove all the forces that could withstand this rate, because it is murderous. It was necessary to bring the Nazis and any rabble to the forefront.

- Nikolai Yanovich, but you and your government have promoted the idea of ​​European integration of Ukraine for several years, signed the documents yourself.

“So I don't understand you.” Why does the course [on European integration] contradict the course on good neighborly, integration and cooperative ties with Russia? You say I was an engine of progress. Yes, it was! And I absolutely do not think that I did bad things. I did good things necessary for the country.

- No one argues, even the opposition supported you [ on the issue of European integration ] .

- Yes, she never supported me. The same moron Yatsenyuk spoke in parliament and demanded a decrease in tariffs from me. He said that those tariffs that acted, they are very high for the population of Ukraine. But now he is paid for reforms, and he does [the same as me]. I did not need the opposition, we had 250-260 people in parliament, enough to conduct our course. We made a decision on the neutral status of Ukraine, we decided to extend the lease of the Russian base in Sevastopol for 20 years, we adopted Euroassociation. And do not contrast it with the course on integration with the Russian Federation, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

- You accepted the Euroassociation, but why did you then refuse it one day? After that, the Maidan began.

-The Maidan did not start because of this!

“ But the Maidanists themselves said so, even said“ Euromaidan ”.

- You never know what they said.

- Fine. The question is, why did you change the course one day?

- Yes, not in one day. And I emphasize once again: the course on modernization, the course to combat corruption, the course on reform related to deregulation, a decrease in administrative pressure on business - this was all relevant. I will give you my book, it says in detail about our work. And around the Maidan created many myths that are not true.

As if it was some kind of popular uprising. Yes, the people worked calmly, drunk, rested in restaurants, walked and so on. It would never have occurred to anyone to arrange a coup.

We conducted a course to modernize the country, created a rule of law, because it is impossible to develop the country with corrupt courts. We naively believed that the European justice system acts stably, has centuries -old traditions, and when justice makes decisions, it really closes its eyes and does not look at the scales. All this, as it turned out, is nonsense!

- Have you changed your mind after sanctions?

- Yes, not after the sanctions. Although this showed that there are serious flaws in European justice. Nevertheless, the situation, which is now in the system of Ukrainian justice, is an order of magnitude inferior to European. Business in Europe developed consistently, and property rights and personal freedoms of citizens are quite protected. Therefore, I have not seen anything bad in carrying out some reforms and approaching European standards. The second - the wear of fixed assets in Ukraine exceeded 80%. Where could we borrow these technologies? In the most developed countries of the world, not excluding China. Therefore, Europe has an association agreement with dozens of countries. For example, Algeria, Egypt and so on. So the agreement did not mean at all that we were going completely [to Europe].

- In that case, what did it mean?

“You know what, I would like to talk with a journalist, so that he wouldn’t pull something out of me, but that I would look my views and they are clear enough.” I have never been a conjunker, I did not adapt, I had a line, but! The association agreement we prepared and paraphized back in 2011. But what prevented us from signing it [finally] in 2012, in 2013? Why did we postpone? And because then the economic situation has seriously changed. In 2010, we had an increase in GDP 4.5%, do you understand at least something in this matter? [Then the situation changed.] Metal prices fell from 650 to 250 dollars. They fell on the grain. Yes, the crisis began to weaken, but did not end, the world has not yet come out of it. Despite the fact that I believe that economic growth is possible under any conditions. And under favorable external and internal conditions, 10-15 percent is also possible, as if in China spari. Yes, the tenth and eleventh years were difficult for us. But we had growth. The market developed, we increased the welfare of the population, but the external players were not interested in such a situation.

“These idiots buy gas at 170, and I bought 500 from Russia!”

- Be that as it may, it was in your rule that Ukraine approached the catastrophic line, and you yourself eventually ended up in Moscow. Everything collapsed with you.

- And you say so in vain. When you fly by plane in Kyiv, you can see for yourself ...

- Well, fly through Turkey or Belarus. And only you went into the airspace of Ukraine, you immediately got into the tracking zone of all -weather weather stations, which provide landing and take -off under any conditions. I built them. Then you sit on beautiful new runways, we have three of them. They were not before, I built them. Then you get into modern terminals, I also built them. Then sit in a taxi and go along a beautiful eight -pound highway right to the city center of Kyiv.

- Have you built too?

- Also me.

- Is that all that you built?

- Of course not! Then you enter the beautiful Bazhan Avenue. And ten minutes later you get to the beautiful bridge over the Dnieper River. I also built it. Then go to the whole series of interchanges and go right to the center of Kyiv. And I built all this. And in the evening you can go to the beautiful Olympic stadium, which is not even in Moscow. Who built it, you ask? Do you know that we spent Euro-12? We have beautiful hospitals, 14 perinatal centers .... For four years, we increased life expectancy by 3.5 years, it is a lot. We raised wages 1.6 times. Look for some countries, but at least in Europe, where income has risen 1.6 times. And I did all that.

- Nikolai Yanovich, but then there was a favorable situation, not to mention growth from a low base.

- I paid five hundred dollars for gas. Great conjuncture! Now these idiots buy 170 each, and I bought 500 from Russia!

- Because oil fell in price! Here the conjuncture really helps them, not me.

- It is known that Gazprombank issued your government loans for the purchase of Russian gas. It turns out that Russia actually sponsored the purchase of such expensive gas?

- And where could we go? The gas pipeline comes from Russia, not from Slovakia. Where will we go?

- Indeed, the current government buys from Slovakia for 170, is it bad?

- What does the policy of Ukraine have to do with it? I came in 2010, the treasury was empty. I have an inheritance - a formula agreement of Mrs. Tymoshenko with Gazprom, and there is already [price]. That is, I automatically received the cost of gas (oil then cost about 110 per barrel) $ 550. What should I do? Five hundred and fifty! So, I will not sell fertilizers, I will be terribly high by the cost of metallurgy, etc. But I was forced to buy [gas at $ 550]!

"There really was no Maidan"

- Nikolai Yanovich, now Russia requires the current government of Ukraine to repay a multi -billion dollar loan, which your team took at the end of 2013. What can you say about this?

- Before talking, read such stupidity, read in my book, there is evidence there, how Ukraine occupied, gave, repaid it, then took it, etc. In Ukraine, there is no gas and oil to provide gold and foreign exchange reserves in the right volume. Therefore, they had to be formed at the expense of politics. This means that the government should carefully monitor a number of factors, but first of all its foreign trade balance. You have to sell more and buy less. But even what you sell, you must watch that the currency in which your enterprises operate is on time, does not disperse along offshores. This is all, plus the return of foreign exchange earnings, plus the lack of speculation in the market, such a policy of government and the National Bank creates opportunities [for the formation of reserves] even in the worst conditions. I paid 1.2 billion monthly Gazprom. Ukraine for the whole last year did not pay Gazprom and a billion.

- Therefore, it turns out that the Russian side was interested in supporting your course with loans.

- We had complex gas relations with Russia. Russia paid us for transit, we paid her for gas. Therefore, when we did not have enough money, we said that Gazprom pay us forward for transit, and [this] calculated for deliveries. But I emphasize, you cannot even imagine that we did not just pay 2.5 times higher the price than now, but we bought this gas twice as much. We worked for the chemical industry, metallurgy, in the winter we heated houses at a temperature of 22 degrees, and not 16, as it is now. And we coped. But in 2012, the conjuncture of foreign markets worsened. But, as I told you, we still kept stable development. But Western players did not like it. They aimed at the replacement of power in Ukraine. Not in 2013, but in 2015, when there will be presidential elections. We knew that another Maidan was being prepared. What is the Maidan? This is a coup d'etat.

- Many believe that a civil protest.

- What is this protest? A protest is when people come out with peaceful slogans, posters, a large crowd can gather, 50 thousand, 100 thousand, but peaceful! Require a change of power? Please. A group of negotiators is being created, there is some kind of compromise. You want us to leave right away. It won't. It is necessary to prepare everything, organize, the elections there. Will you stand on? Yes, stand - at least a month, at least two, at least ten. But do not forget that 50 thousand come to the Maidan, and 50 million live in the country. The remaining 49 with something millions do not go to the Maidans.

“But the most active and conscious come out, isn't it?”

- You are talking nonsense again. Conscious! They captured the buildings of ministries, plundered, arranged a torture at the Kyiv City Hall. This is a real rabble and Nazis.

-Nikolai Yanovich, on YouTube I saw a video from the Maidan 2004, where you can see that you are standing on the stage behind Viktor Yushchenko. What did you do there?

- (A long pause.) Well, this is a well -known story, it was the first Maidan. Well, firstly, I performed the duties of the prime minister then ... So I will return to the above again. Civilized protest is when they do not capture the buildings of the government, parliament, do not capture ministries, do not use violence ...

- Excuse me, but the first power was the first to use the authorities, having dispersed the so -called student Euromaidan.

- This is complete nonsense. Even if you take the most unpleasant incident when Golden Eagle dispersed all these ...

- Students?

- What are the students?! I even wildly listen to this! You have some kind of absolutely ... I do not need to completely lie! Absolutely! I have no desire to portray me better or worse. I don't care about it! Therefore, [I will say this]: around all events in Ukraine there was a well -prepared action accompanied by the media. So, of course, there really was no Maidan. In the early days, students from the Kiev-Mogilyansk Academy were like there, about 50 people maximum. Everything was visible from my office, I myself watched them every day. By Friday, students left at all. And there were only those paid from Western Ukraine, mostly bums of all kinds of, absolutely garbage rang.

"You say things that indign me!"

- Nikolai Yanovich, I was both on the Maidan and on the Antimaydan that your supporters arranged, and I can not confirm your words.

- I'm talking about the period from November 21 to 30, when the government announced that it was postponing the signing [of the EU Agreement]. Then there were students from different universities, no more than a thousand people. And on Friday, November 29, they decided to disperse at all, it remains, maybe 30 people. The mayor then decided to put a Christmas tree, it was under the New Year. And at three o’clock in the morning on the night of November 30, unexpectedly from the Ukrainian hotel, 200 people, fans, “right -wing”, “Trizub” and so on. They went down and attacked the police who guarded the students. They began to beat the police, armed only with batons, grabbed burning logs from the bonfires and beat them. The senior outfit, of course, causes reinforcement. But what is interesting: even before the attack of the militants, for some reason, lighting devices, cameras were brought to the square, 12 channels immediately arrived! What the hell are you going to shoot there at three in the morning, if nothing happens? What reports! Therefore, when a decision was made on the direction of the Berkut to the square in order to disperse this atrocious crowd, it was necessary that the police chief simply thought with his head. Look: the cameras are standing, lighting devices, for what?

- That is, it was necessary to wait and disperse people when there are no cameras?

- Yes, do not wait, but you have to have a head on your shoulders! It’s interesting how you have everything!

- I have?

- Maybe Pavel, we will not give any more interviews?

- Why?

- Yes, because you are biased in advance!

“I'm just trying to hear what you want to say.”

- You can’t hear my logic! Do not understand! We are talking in different languages.

- The event you are talking about has different grades. I myself was an eyewitness and I want to understand why your point of view is so different from what people who then visited the Maidan say.

- Yes, this is not my point of view! So [as I say] and it really was!

- Well, let's compare and figure it out.

“You say things that disturb me.” Like, if not for cameras! I say, if it were not for the idiot-the chief of the police who saw these cameras ... He had to figure out that something was happening! And he arrived and began to disperse. Moreover, the thugs, having broken the policemen, were already running away. These students are the so -called.

- Then they said that the police were attacked by the “titles” to provoke the assault.

- Yes, listen, put yourself in the place of any normal person: why in the middle of the night the “fifth channel” of Petya Poroshenko, “1+1” Kolomoisky arrives, put the light. And they do not remove, like thugs, exactly the same “titles”, beat the policemen, 26 people with injuries of the skull. And they take off when the Golden Eagle arrives and begins to thresh everyone who comes under the arm. Homeless people, random passers-by, who for some reason turned out to be there. Here is a Polish correspondent, for example. What did he do there at three in the morning? Well, we drove him, broke his head. Then his face was closely in all the media. That is, the police succumbed to the real provocation. And the next morning, all the media reported under one refrain: why so, they are children! It turned out that we beat students into the blood. And the journalists screamed, the deputies performed: victims - hundreds, thousands, hysteria! I myself found out about this in the morning, the spokeswoman went in and says: turn on the TV. I turn on, and my hair is on end. I immediately create a commission, Minister of Health, Deputies, professors, hospitals! I thought the tragedy! But at 12 o’clock in the afternoon they report to me: not a single serious injury. Where are the students? Not a single one! 46 people of the victims, only four were hospitalized, and on TV everyone twist and twist bloodied faces. At two o’clock I speak on television, I say that I apologize, sympathy for the victims, but I ask you to pay attention that there are no children there, but 50 policemen with severe injuries were hospitalized. Ну а дальше, как вы знаете, [на Майдане] уже были организованы боевые группы, были попытки штурмовать администрацию президента. Ничего не получилось, но мы и не стреляли в них. Произошла резкая эскалация.

«Нам надо было просто продержаться два-три месяца»

— В тот момент было еще возможно ее остановить. Вы вообще рассматривали варианты компромиссов тогда?

— Такое ощущение, что я со стеной разговариваю. Мы этим идиотизмом занимались три месяца. Декабрь, январь и февраль. А нам надо было уже сообразить, что вступил в силу сценарий госпереворота и никакие компромиссы [не помогут]. 28 ноября в Европе хотели с помпой отметить подписание Евроассоциации с Грузией, Азербайджаном и Украиной. Что, как они думали, завершало бы процесс отрыва этих стран от России. И вдруг процесс срывается! Потому что мы отложили подписание. И весь форум провалился. Для нас это не было трагедий. А для них [на Западе] было.

Баррозу мне звонит и говорит: «Если вы как премьер и президент не подпишите соглашение, то подпишут его другие президент и премьер». Надо вам объяснять, что это означает?

— То есть вы несколько лет вводили в заблуждение своих западных партнеров относительно Евроассоциации?

— Каждый думает и считает, исходя из своих интересов. Нам было интересно развивать отношения с ЕС, но чтобы это не противоречило кооперационным связям с РФ… Вы там упомянули кредит в $3 миллиарда. Он нам нужен был для стабилизации ситуации в стране. Начались волнения в центре столицы, они сказались на экономике. Плюс в январе 2014 года истекал срок возврата 825-миллионного кредита Сбербанку. Нам нужно было где-то перекредитоваться. Американцы финансовые рынки нам закрыли, но мы договорились о выгодном кредитовании на 2014 и 2015 годы с Россией и Китаем. То есть нам надо было просто продержаться два-три месяца. Поэтому мы взяли тот кредит на 3 миллиарда.

— Вы тогда считали, что удастся сохранить власть?

— Когда стали использоваться «коктейли Молотова», я собрал послов западных стран и сказал: вы и ваши подопечные черту перешли, предупреждаю как премьер, если вы не разоружите своих бандитов, то это сделаем мы.

Ну а Янукович считал, что сможет договориться, и начал переговоры. Можно это делать один день, два, но не три месяца же! Он должен был исполнить свой долг и поставить ультиматум американцам: если в течение 24 часов боевики не разоружаются, то я начинаю штурм. Думаю, американцы бы дрогнули и дали бы команду здания освободить. Но он не пошел на это. И что теперь со страной?

Ты должен был взять ответственность, потому что за тобой страна, люди, которые теперь несчастны!.. Или вот был момент, когда американцы предложили компромисс: отдайте нам правительство. То есть создайте с оппозицией правительство национального единства. И Янукович пошел на это. Я ему говорил тогда: «Виктор! Прежде чем подписывать указ о моей отставке, добейся разоружения боевиков. Они — угроза для демократии и страны!»

Об аресте счетов в Австрии: «Пусть покажут хоть одно мое евро!»

— Вы поддерживаете идею Москвы о федерализации Украины?

— А другого выхода нет. Украина абсолютно разная. Ни Майдан, ни так называемая революция, ни 25 лет независимости не создали этот сплав, нацию. Мы пытались ее объединить, слить в единое целое. Оказалось, не получается. Восток есть восток, юго-восток, запад есть запад. Даже сейчас они голосуют по-разному, хотя в стране террор и запугивание. Поэтому децентрализация — единственная возможность как-то объединить Украину.

— Это ведь, наоборот, ее уничтожит? Запад будет тяготеть к Европе, а восток отойдет России.

— Не надо никуда тяготеть. Никакой европейской перспективы у Украины нет. Никто ее в ЕС не ждет, по крайней мере в ближайшие 25 лет. Им уже хватило Прибалтики и Болгарии с Румынией. В Болгарии безработица среди молодежи 50%. Из Латвии уехали на заработки полмиллиона человек. А что производит сейчас Литва?

— Николай Янович, вы ощущаете личную ответственность, хоть какую-то вину за то, что стало с Украиной?

— Меня часто спрашивают: а вот признайте, ведь это вы начали с ассоциацией, это вы уехали в Россию и про Крым говорите [о законности присоединения к РФ]. Ну если вам легче станет — да, виноват! But what? Я в голове не мог представить, что произойдет в Крыму или Донбассе. Янукович ведь не отдал приказ стрелять из танков, когда майданные радикалы захватили минюст. Такая же ситуация была и в Донбассе, когда ополченцы захватили здание администрации. Ну садитесь договаривайтесь, зачем воевать.

Поэтому, да, я чувствую ответственность за то, что, может быть, недостаточно четко разъяснял людям нашу позицию. В экономике результат был позитивный, пусть попробуют лучше. Но на моих руках нет крови, воровства и коррупции. Хотя за два года они выдумали против меня нелепые обвинения.

— Власти ЕС сообщали об аресте в Австрии счетов вашей семьи. Позже называлась сумма — 200 миллионов евро.

— Пусть покажут хоть одно мое евро. Все это ложь, чушь, придумано…

«Когда американцы прекратят поддерживать Украину, нынешний режим упадет»

— Вас обвиняют также в незаконном вооружении милиции свето-шумовыми гранатами, поставленными специально из России.

— На заседании правительства этот вопрос [о гранатах] обсуждался. Но я это постановление не подписал, потребовал заключение минюста и минздрава, но они его мне не дали.

— То есть российские гранаты против митингующих не применялись?

— Свето-шумовые гранаты применялись и без постановления, начиная с ноября. А заседание было в январе. О российских гранатах не было никакой речи, все придумано. Особенно цинично такое слышать, когда из «Градов» и баллистических ракет «Точка-У» стреляют по Донецку. А мне в вину ставят водометы!

— Но Донецк отвечал тем же самым, используя тяжелую технику.

— Разница в том, что ополченцы использовали тяжелую технику против сил, стоящих в поле. А те [украинские войска], наоборот, когда лупили из «Градов», то лупили не по ополченцам, а по городу.

— Послушайте, я был и в Донецке, и в Авдеевке, контролируемой Украиной. Она разрушена не меньше.

— Авдеевка — маленький поселок на 50 тысяч человек, не сравнивайте с миллионным Донецком.

— Почему не сравнивать, там не люди живут?

— Авдеевку они [украинские власти] обязаны были отселить, а Донецк не отселишь. И главное, на ком лежит больше ответственности: на премьере, президенте или на ополченцах?

— Вообще на властях.

— Тогда надо признать, что они [в ДНР и ЛНР] официальные власти. Их же не признали. Вообще, что сейчас надо сделать — Россия и Америка должны сесть за стол переговоров и найти компромисс. Когда американцы прекратят поддерживать Украину, нынешний режим упадет.

— Значит, упадут и режимы в Луганске и Донецке, если Россия перестанет поддерживать их?

— А как она может не поддерживать? А как бы повели себя США, если в Мексике стали бы уничтожать американцев? Почему Россия не должна защищать своих? Донбасс — это на 90% русские люди. Запорожье — на 50%, Днепропетровская область — около 70%. И что, Россия бы спокойно смотрела, как бандеровцы и фашисты спокойно уничтожают русских?

— Но этого не случилось ни в том же Запорожье, ни в Харькове.

— Как не случилось! В Харькове только исчезло около 200 человек. Почему люди молчат? Боятся говорить об этом. Запугали. В Харькове полгода держали в СБУ проректора университета. А что говорить про пацанву 18—20 лет, студентов?

— Скажите, вы поддерживаете связь с Януковичем?

— Я с ним ни разу здесь не встречался. И нигде ничего критического про него не говорил. То, что он уехал, спасая свою жизнь, я не могу никак осуждать. Остался бы он, его бы уничтожили.

— Микола Янович, вас так называли. Скучаете по украинскому языку?

— ( Пауза. ) Мне нравилась его мелодичность. Я прожил на Украине больше 20 лет, это страна, в которую я вложил силы, там друзья, там жизнь прошла. Конечно, скучаю, а потом, кто меня оттуда заставил уехать? Какие-то недоноски, которые страну развалили.... Украина должна быть самобытной, должна поменьше слушать, должна стать самостоятельной, а не заглядывать в рот другим.