"This is only the top of the iceberg"

Drew Sullivan, one of the authors of the dossier about the offshore of Putin's friends, about the real scale of theft of state funds in Russia

The total amount of state funds withdrawn from Russia through offshore firms can reach 200 billion dollars, according to Drew Sullivan, the founder of the Center for the Investigation of Corruption and Organized Crime, which published the materials of Panama Gate .

The press secretary of Russian President Vladimir Putin Dmitry Peskov called “speculations” and “speculation” information contained in a large-scale investigation on the withdrawal of Russian state-owned companies into offshore close to Putin by people. Peskov suggested that this "stuffing", which he himself announced more than a week before the publication, was called upon to "interrupt the positive from Russia's success in Syria" and undermine Putin's reputation "on the eve of the elections."

The head of the VTB Bank Andrei Kostin described the materials of Panama Gate as “nonsense”, adding that “Putin was never involved in such.” Businessman Arkady Rotenberg , mentioned in the investigation of the International Center for the Investigation of Corruption and Organized Crime ( OCCRP ), said on Monday that his companies really provided a loan from an offshore associated with musician Sergei Roldugin , a close friend of Russian President Vladimir Putin, but on commercial conditions and "for specific projects." What kind of projects are we talking about, Arkady Rotenberg did not specify.

Arkady Rotenberg

One of the founders of the OCCRP Drew Sullivan, who promised that the publication of materials about offshore companies of leading politicians and officials from different countries will “change the world”, does not abandon these words - despite the fact that in Russia the investigation caused many a skeptical reaction . In an interview with Radio Liberty Drew Sullivan , investigations within the framework of OCCRP Since 2006, he answers the skeptics, who reacted to the publication by the phrases “this was already known”, “Putin’s power will not shake” and “they found only $ 2 billion”:

- From the moment of publication of OCCRP until the time when we are talking, 16 hours have passed ( this conversation was recorded on Monday morning. - RS ) . Almost no reaction to your investigation in Russia from officials mentioned in it has not yet been followed, not to mention the resignations. Have you expected this?

- I think this is not surprising. It does not seem to me that this is the most reasonable for officials, to be silent, but this was not a surprise for us. Because if they really have faults, if they were involved in this, what can they say? We have emails, official documents of the companies. So it doesn’t matter if they consider us crazy, or they plead guilty, the reaction will be the same. Documents and notes speak for themselves. This is a huge amount of evidence that indicates the use of offshores, especially in Russia and especially people close to Putin. Look at the cellist Sergei Roldugin. The same amazing information is about what he received from Russian state banks $ 650 million to unstoped loans! In any country in the world, it would sound absurd.

- Many in Russia took your investigation skeptical, even before its publication, when it became known that we are talking about offshores. There are two reasons for skepticism. The first is that this is not a "journalistic investigation" in its purest form, but the publication of confidential documents, leakage, "drain", as they say in Russia. What do you say to it?

We have records of hundreds of thousands of contracts concluded at various levels of the Russian government

- Every time we are dealing with private business, we understand that he is not obliged to sacredly follow the laws on freedom of information. You will not be able to get information from a private company, except as a result of such a leak. But even leaks of documents are quite rare, usually this is only a leak of some kind of information. A leak of such a volume of specific documents happens when a person who has access to them says to himself: what is happening here is flagrantly wrong. This is what happened in the case of the current leak. There is state money, the flow of which goes to private companies. This is very well documented in the "Russian part" of our investigation. We have records of hundreds of thousands of contracts concluded at various levels of the Russian government. State structures pay money to private offshore companies whose owners are unknown. Drenches from such companies are the only way to find out who is behind them. I think people will always be skeptical and will believe in what they want to believe in. I do not believe that these documents will convince someone who believes in the absolute honesty of the Russian authorities. But if you really read the documents we published, look closely at what is described in them, you will actually see a rather terrible story. These documents should take a closer look.

Cellist Sergei Roldugin - according to OCCRP journalists, "Keeper of Putin's common fund"

- Another reason for skepticism is the amount in question is $ 2 billion. "And what, is that all that they found? Some miserable 2 billion?" I have a question - is it true, or can you expect more?

The total amount of funds flowing from Russian state structures to offshore is more than 200 billion dollars

- Of the documents that we published now, I do not think. But remember: these are documents of just one law firm. And in the world of such firms, offshore registrars, about 2000. What is published now is a small piece of a large puzzle. We have a small piece, but we want to collect the whole picture. I think 2 billion is just the tip of the iceberg. In my opinion, the total amount of funds flowing from Russian state structures to offshore is more than 200 billion dollars. And in fact, I'm not sure that we will someday all these 200 billion will be able to track.

Traces of this theft are visual - mansions, yachts, property belonging to Russian officials and their relatives

If you look at how Russia is arranged, look at this a huge number of offshore companies, thousands of contracts, it just looks like a kind of "license" for theft of money. If you have an offshore company through which 10 million dollars passes, and no one is particularly following you, why not take a little of this money for yourself? When, under your control, state departments, when you can transfer money from offshore to offshore and no one knows about it, this is the right sign that part of the money, if not all, will simply be stolen. Such is human nature, this applies to any country, not only in Russia. If there is no system of checks and counterweights, the money will be stolen. And Russia is only one of many countries where it happens. In total, of such countries as Russia, the countries of the former USSR, about 1 trillion of dollars were brought into Western assets, according to our estimates. Traces of this theft are visual - mansions, yachts, property belonging to Russian officials and their relatives. Money definitely sneaks and is withdrawn to offshore. Now people themselves must decide whether they want to find out even more about what is really happening.

The legendary "Palace of Putin" at Cape Idokopos in the Krasnodar Territory, near Gelendzhik

-The name of Vladimir Putin in your investigation is never mentioned in direct connection with any fraud. Could this happen in the following publications?

“ I don’t think that you will ever see the name of Vladimir Putin in any such business.” Perhaps he made mistakes and left traces in early youth, maybe in the "Spanish Mafia" , but now you will not see his name anywhere. He does not need to use his name. He controls Russia and the fate of all who are near him. It is well known how his childhood friends became billionaires due to his loyalty to him. So he does not need to appear anywhere personally, he has enough proxies for this. If you look at Sergey Roldugin, you will see that he actually had a bad idea of what was happening in the accounts of offshore registered in his name. He did not know that. All operations were carried out by the Bank "Russia". However, at the same time, it was the money that passed through Roldugin's accounts that allowed Putin to build all these palaces, for example. What other evidence is that the final recipient of this money was not Sergey Roldugin, but Vladimir Putin?

What other evidence is that the final recipient of this money was not Sergey Roldugin, but Vladimir Putin?

- The representative of the Panama company Mossack Fonseca called the publication of the criminal offense you received from the source of papers. According to the co -founder of the company Ramon Fonseca, confidentiality is the "fundamental right of a person." What can you answer this and are you ready for lawsuits against OCCRP?

- We talk about corruption and organized crime, so many people constantly file lawsuits against us (laughs). We have already tried to suck us many times. But this is not a problem. There is nothing to judge for, because what we publish is based on a clear and documentary evidence base. As for the question of the confidentiality that representatives of Mossack Fonseca are asked, this is an important question. But it should be considered in tandem with another issue: what is more important - the confidentiality or the right of people to know where state money comes? The published documents recorded billions of dollars that were transferred to offshore companies from Russia. And the Russians have the right to know where their money goes.

Russians have the right to know where their money goes

Private businessmen have the right to confidentiality in such matters, but state officials are not. If Mossack Fonseca conscientiously did their job and put the legality in the first place, they would simply not allow government officials to place money at home. So Mossack fonseca, in fact, themselves are responsible for what happened because they very poorly completed the work on checking the assets that were placed. They should not have been allowed to transfer money stolen from the state they created. We did not publish a single name of a private person, only the names of government officials or those who were related to state funds. We knew very carefully that not a single name of an ordinary private person would never appear in any of the materials we published.

- People in Russia say: so that, everything was known about theft of the authorities, Putin’s power will not shake in any way. Do you believe that one day Putin will be responsible for all these fraud?

Russian Prosecutor General Yuri Chaika and Vladimir Putin

-Our task is not to assign responsibility for anyone, but simply to tell people the truth. This is very important. In addition, there are rumors, but there are facts. Rumors about who and how are stealing state funds in Russia, in recent years have been full. But when you have documents in your hands showing how much and where the money was transferred, this is a completely different matter. Because it changes the status of this information - these are no longer rumors, but a reason for a criminal investigation. And I think that representatives of the Russian state need to look more closely at some of these documents. For example, the General Prosecutor. You can’t just get silent, say “there is nothing new” or “it doesn’t matter”. For the first time we can trace the chain by which public funds were withdrawn from Russia to offshore companies. We see bribes - money or gifts that Putin gave close to his friends. This is a completely different game, another level, when you have specific evidence and evidence. Yes, people probably guessed that this was happening. But having evidence in hand is completely different.

- The problem is that the Prosecutor General in Russia, as well as the law enforcement agencies, according to many, are fully controlled by Putin and is unlikely to investigate the case against him and his friends.

In Russia, many people reconciled with corruption in exchange for being citizens of a strong and formidable power. But it will not always be like that

- Yes. Crimes and crime coverage at the state level are what we encounter in many countries in which OCCRP works. You may be accused of a crime only if your political relations turned against you. Yes, this is probably so. But still, this is a little gap that we were able to break through in an impenetrable wall built by people responsible for theft. "Here, look, there are even more such information, here are documents, here are evidence!" Perhaps this will convince several more people from among those who used to be skeptical of such information. So now it's about the Russians. I can’t say to myself that I am like this or differently to Vladimir Putin. The Russians chose him as his president, he is their leader. We only give them information, and what to do with it is to solve the Russians themselves. Perhaps there will be some more time, new evidence will appear and people will decide that they can no longer endure such a president. Again, when you know about something by rumors, this is unlikely to prompt you to direct action. When the facts are in your hands is a completely different matter. In Russia, many people reconciled with corruption in exchange for being citizens of a strong and formidable power. But it will not always be so. I think when all people in Russia will know in detail what is happening in the highest spheres of the Russian government, they will eventually begin to act. But this is the case of the Russians themselves, ”says Drew Sullivan.