"Suicide is not some kind of deviation"

Psychologists, psychiatrists and sociologists about what is the cause of teenage suicides, and why it is so important to talk with children

The Help Charity Foundation and the information portal “Such Affairs”, together with the Public Opinion Foundation, held a round table “Teenage suicides in Russia” on June 1.

The moderator of the event is the editor -in -chief of the MEL.FM educational portal Nikita Belogolovtsev. Participants: Lyubov Borusyak, specialist in the field of field sociology and sociology of the media, associate professor of the Department of Integrated Communications of the Higher School; Ekaterina Fedorova, Director of the Charitable Fund "Your Territory"; Irina Makarova, Candidate of Psychological Sciences, Head of the Psychological Consulting Service of Students in the Higher School; Tatyana Kirillova, psychologist-pedagogue of the city psychological and pedagogical center of the Moscow Education Department.

We publish a transcript, as well as a full video of the event.

Nikita Belogolovtsev :

Today we will talk about teenage suicides in Russia. Love, I would like to ask you to start with some numbers, statistics. They say about the disaster that our suicide level is three times higher than in Europe.

Read also “Such a role in the class is a beating boy”, high school students talk about the persecution at school, and psychologists give advice to teachers and parents how to act in such cases

Lyubov Borusak :

I am the only sociologist here among wonderful psychologists. As a former demograph, I, as soon as I read the article by Mursalieva about teenage suicides, rushed to look for statistics!

The article was talking about the data on the suicide of adolescents received by an unusual way. Nevertheless, Russia does not apply to countries with a high level of suicide. For the past 15 years, the number of suicides in Russia has been reduced high pace. In 2015, less than 25 thousand suicides were committed. The most dangerous age is people of advanced age. By the way, very little is said about this, because the old people, unlike children, are of little concern to society. And even compared to 2014, a decrease occurred by 6%. And the most important thing is that now we have the lowest number of suicides over the past 50 years. That is, the trend is very favorable.

The same situation was in the early 1960s. The level of suicides began to grow in 1965, and this lasted until 2002, and the mid-1990s-the most difficult time. This is if we talk about teenagers. Nevertheless, according to the international classification, the country is considered dysfunctional if 100 thousand inhabitants account for 20 suicides or more. For the past few years, Russia has left this zone. Now we have about 17 suicides per 100 thousand people. According to the classification of the World Health Society, Russia is now a country with an average suicide level.

It personally pleases me very much! Because for almost 50 years we were more risky and heavy.

In 2012, our legislation was tightened, and everything related to suicides (their so -called propaganda) became illegal, rather strict repressions began. Did this affect the dynamics of the number of suicides in Russia? It did not affect. That is, a decrease in both went and continued to go the same pace. If it is still somehow supposed to wrap the nuts, it will be the same. I will give such numbers. In 2010-2012, the number of suicide victims decreased by 21%. In 2012, a law was adopted on the ban on suicide propaganda. What next? In 2013-2015-a decrease by 16%. There was no effect from the prohibitions. What next, in general, prohibit the Internet, apparently?

Lyubov Borusyak Photo: Andrey Lyubimov for TD

Who does this happen more often? Suicides are much more likely to do men than women. And adolescents have the same thing - among boys there are more significantly more. If we talk about completed suicides, then the leaders are alcoholic men.

This is least of all applies to adolescents. What are the main reasons, reasons, what groups of adolescents belong to the risk zone? First of all, it is drug addiction (alcoholism at this age does not yet cause suicides, it will be later). Further - the difference from others: first of all, adolescents who have realized themselves belonging to another sexual orientation. This is also the main problem of boys, girls are much softer in girls, since homophobia only applies to men.

If we talk about completed suicides, then the leaders are male alcoholics

The next reason is the requirements to be thin and slim. “You are ugly, you are fat, no one will love you,” the claim of society and the media look like this. In general, relations with your body are mainly a teenage problem.

As for prosperous families, the main problem in them is a shortage of communication with peers and parents. Parents are immensely loved by their children, try to protect and protect them from everything, but do not know how to listen to them.

Ekaterina Fedorova:

Our fund works with adolescents, we have organized a line of youth assistance up to 20 years old. This is remote psychological counseling through an anonymous chat. In fact, this is a model of a helpline, transferred to the Internet.

We are faced with a very large number of difficult appeals, including when a teenager reports that he is in some unusable situation for him, and he needs immediate help.

Ekaterina Fedorova photo: Andrey Lyubimov for TD

When you come across directly with the child’s suicide, there are a lot of feelings. This affects those people who find out about this, observed it or saw it. The child recently went to school, and now he was not. This causes very serious shocks, especially for the close circle of the deceased. We are constantly faced with such situations.

In order to more accurately understand which of the adolescents can perform suicide, you need to talk to him. He always reports that there is some kind of intolerance to the situation. That is, he directly or indirectly says: "My psyche does not cope with something, I will not tolerate it." And the conversation about the problem helps to get out of this state.

Tatyana Kirillova:

Parents or even colleagues often write, they say that now some children are not the same as before. I think that this is most likely a story about strengthening control (up to electronic diaries, which were not there before). On the other hand, today there are gadgets that children use better than parents and receive undifferentiated information from them. That is, here is the story that parents can not always be competent in the eyes of the child. From here there is less trust between them.

I cannot generalize, all parents and situations are different, but there is also a common one. For example, parents themselves do not notice how they sit in gadgets and set an example for a child. After that, it is difficult to tell the children that you can’t do this.

Tatyana Kirillova Photo: Andrey Lyubimov for TD

When everyone begins to talk about children's suicides, you look at the child with different eyes and start to think - did he always come so upset after school or now more upset? At least, the child has time to ask: "How are you doing?"

Lyubov Borusak:

I would turn this question of your question: not the children are different, but the time is different, and therefore the situation is different. I constantly monitored the discussion at family forums. The relations of parents and children today are very psychologically loaded. The main topic is the world is very dangerous, and therefore the child should be driven by the hand and not let go anywhere.

Feeling guilt is always a useful thing. As some women say, there is nothing more useful than a husband who feels guilty. Now for some time all frightened will go to a psychologist. Then there will be some kind of horror story, and, probably, something in the relationship of parents and children will change.

When everyone begins to talk about children's suicides, you look at the child with different eyes

When in schools they began to hang updress phones on which adolescents can call and talk about their problems, many parents caused this protest. Why, I think, psychologists perfectly understand: because children, of course, begin to complain about parents, as parents believe. And here we are not Europe, where children complain that they were given not oatmeal, but some other. Fear from parents that the child can be removed from the family. That there is a secret juvenile justice, which is only waiting to take a child from us.

Irina Makarova:

We have a record figure: for 2015, more than one and a half thousand students turned to us (psychological assistance in HSE) not only for a single consultation, but also for short -term therapy. This figure all the time increases year from year.

Unfortunately, a sad case has recently occurred at our university - a student's suicide. Each time this is a difficult situation not only for the parents of the child, but also for those who studied in the same group with this student, for those with whom he lived in the same hostel. The shock from this diverges in exciting, covers a large number of people, and they also receive mental injury and therefore need psychological assistance.

Irina Makarova Photo: Andrey Lyubimov for TD

As for the case of suicide committed with us. A boy from a conditionally prosperous family. Mom and dad are working, no one drinks, there are no drugs in the family. The boy is the winner of the All -Russian Olympiad, he studied well. I look at the internal situation-if this happened, then the family was something wrong. Because, if a person is decided by such a step, then he contains a serious protest against parental will, figures that gave life.

It is important to analyze the last hours of this person’s life. I spoke with the people who surrounded him at the last moment. They said that for a second they did not suspect that this could happen, he behaved as usual. Nevertheless, it turned out that the last hours he desperately looked for opportunities to talk with someone: he wrote on VKontakte, urged his neighbors to go together. He almost openly gave a signal: “I want to talk to someone!”, But no one could do this.

With some bitter feeling, I think that if at that moment he had the opportunity to write to the fund, which was led by Catherine, if he could call on the phone of trust, then everything could have developed differently.

The theme of suicide is generally frightening, and adults are often not ready to talk with their children on this topic. Although the topic of life and death is what a teenager is trying to understand.

Nikita Belogolovtsev:

Quite often, this approach is found: I will turn off the Internet, put the child under the castle. Let him hates me all his life, but I will suffer, and then he will grow up and understand that we were right. How true is it?

Irina Makarova:

I meet with the parents of students who are worried about how they study. And what’s interesting - parents complain that their children are sitting on the Internet, playing computer games. When I ask them, where does the child come from in order to buy an expensive gadget, pay for the Internet, it turns out that the money is given by the parents themselves.

It is very convenient for many parents that the child sits at home, does not walk anywhere

It is very convenient for many parents that the child is sitting at home, does not walk anywhere, there are no poor teenagers, does not drink alcohol in the gateway. He is under full control, and in the end a very pocket child grows up, not adapted to life, which does not know how to communicate.

Nikita Belogolovtsev:

It is generally accepted that moving to another city, the change of scenery will greatly injure students. Is it so? And the second question is about the seasonality of suicides, does it exist?

Nikita Belogolovtsev photo: Andrey Lyubimov for TD

Irina Makarova:

I will start with the question about seasonality. Judging by the number of students' alarms, this is October, then February and March are difficult spring months, when you wait for spring in Moscow, and it does not come when even mentally healthy people are difficult to endure this.

Regarding the move - I would not say that this is an injury, but it's hard. Everyone ever moved somewhere from the usual, stable, familiar world to some new, unfamiliar place. This requires greater stress, the adaptation does not occur, not everyone can easily live this period. But the move acts as a catalyst for mental development.

Tatyana Kirillova:

My experience of a consultant to a specialized center tells me that the current system of psychological support for schoolchildren does not work very well. And the problem is not that psychologists in schools are catastrophically few, and they are continued to reduce them. And not only in the fact that the psychologist at the school is absorbed in some paper work and does not at all engage in children. The problem is that the school psychologist is part of a complex organism called the school. Which is sometimes not only useful for a teenager, but even sometimes dangerous. Because he pursues some specific corporate goals. It seems to me that the educational psychological service should work outside the school, outside the Department of Education, have its own structure and should be well known among schoolchildren. There, adolescents could get full -time and correspondence psychological assistance, including emergency.

Listeners during a round table photo: Andrey Lyubimov for TD

Nikita Belogolovtsev:

Now, friends, you have the opportunity to ask questions that you have accumulated!

Anton, journalist:

Irina talked about the fact that parents bought gadgets to the child and they themselves drove them with their own hands into the virtual world. The attitude of adults to gadgets and the Internet is quite rational - they occupy a child so that he does not drink or smoke in the yards.

Perhaps we are all advanced people, in particular, because we came to this meeting from the message on Facebook. But I have relatives from the old generation who cannot cope with the Internet. We need to conduct educational activities among parents so that they know what it is. If parents do not understand what the Internet is, and how people communicate there, then how can he talk about it with the child! Such a technical educational program will solve a huge number of problems.

Lyubov Borusak:

Without the Internet, we cannot imagine our life now. But modern parents occupy all the attention and space of the child: “Well, look at some kind of fairy tale on the Internet”-instead of some joint game of the puppet theater, for example. And when the child grows up and becomes a teenager, and the parents say: “Let's talk about your problems”, then the child thinks: “From what fright I have to talk to you if you sent me there yourself? Leave me alone, because now I don’t know how to talk to you and do not want to. ”

Olga Kalashnikova, psychologist, psychotherapist of the crisis suicidal department of the 20th hospital:

I have been working in this topic for twenty years. In our scientific team, we believe that suicide is not some kind of deviation. Any person is subject to suicide, and we must not try to keep him from this, but, on the contrary, you need to understand how all this does not happen. Life, death, freedom are existential reasons, it is impossible to pass them. It seems to me that the task is to form a certain psychological system in a person that will allow him, I plunge into difficulties, and remain normal. Today is the Internet scarecrow, and tomorrow there will be something else. But this should not interfere with a person, because he will have a certain inner rod, the source of the subjectivity that we talked about today.

When there was no Internet, it was said that the invention of the printing machine turned the youth from spirituality. That is, something always happens, the psyche during the loads seeks to somehow distract, fly to other worlds and fantasies.

Question from the audience:

There is such a common opinion that a person who tells everyone about suicide will never do this. And suicide is performed by one who does not think about it. That is, this is a spontaneous solution. How true is this remark?

Olga Kalashnikova:

In fact, everything is wrong. Let's all turn over. Thoughts about life, whether I am comfortable, warm, is I needed in this world - this is normal. If something is wrong, then you need to change. And a person who does not think about life and death is psychologically immature. This person is absolutely not in contact with his inner world, because the parents were not in contact with him at one time. If his parents constantly suppressed him, then diffuse discomfort, fears of modern society occur: all kinds of addictions, suicide, trips to Islamic terrorists, executions. They react so to their inner world.

Question from the audience, Anna Semenova, the Foundation "Need help":

I am the mother of two teenagers and another not teenager. Summarizing the performances and all the comments - I want to wrap myself in a rag and crawl. That is, we put a cross on us: we do not know how to communicate and, in general, we no longer have a chance to learn this. I would like to comment on this hysteria on Facebook, the reaction that my parents had in my environment. The most questions were about how to talk with the child, for example, about the same article (Mursalieva's article in Novaya Gazeta about teenage groups in social networks promoting suicide - approx. TD). What specifically to say in order not to say excess or provoke? Not a single answer to these questions appeared. Just comments: take the gadgets, you yourself are to blame for everything, follow your children and so on. This feeling of guilt is incredible. Children started in love and desire, and then it turns out that you need to work 24 hours in order to keep it. I say all this so long for us to understand that the parents are not so bad, they are just in a tense situation. Мне хочется обязательно выступить в защиту родителей!

Ирина Макарова:

Я сожалею, что возникло такое мнение. Я сама родитель и нахожусь в постоянном недоумении, как общаться со своими детьми. Все мы работаем, но очень важно для родителей сохранять интерес к своему ребенку. Не нужно много времени для того, чтобы спросить: «Какие у тебя оценки, и почему ты себя плохо вел, и что было интересного у тебя в этот день? Что ты хочешь мне рассказать или хочешь, чтобы я тебе рассказала?»

родители не такие плохие, просто они находятся в напряженной ситуации. Мне хочется обязательно выступить в защиту родителей

Я тоже мама, у меня ребенок подросткового возраста, я работаю с подростками. И мы всегда говорим, что чувство родительской вины — это не наш друг. Это чувство никогда не поможет в работе с детьми.

У нас у всех гаджеты, мой старший ребенок сидит во «ВКонтакте», и это повод еще раз поговорить о безопасности, это важная часть профессионального образования, родительской компетентности.

Главное не сидеть на месте: обращаться к школьному психологу, к директору школы, приглашать каких-то сторонних специалистов на родительское собрание, где расскажут об опасностях, таящихся в соцсетях, о профилактике наркозависимости и так далее. У нас у всех очень тернистый путь, кто-то идет к частному психотерапевту, кто-то к государственному. Главное, чтобы мы делали все одно дело.

Вопрос из зала, Злата:

В прошлом я социальный педагог по работе с детьми из группы риска, из знаменитого проекта «Дети улиц». Знакомы ли вы с такой программой, как «Дети 404» (или «Подростки 404» — психологическая и социальная поддержка гомосексуальных, бисексуальных и трансгендерных подростков, — прим. ТД)? Мне бы хотелось услышать ваше мнение, должен ли существовать этот проект, если да, то почему. Если нет, то тоже почему?

Любовь Борусяк:

Вопрос риторический, нужно или ненужно. Вы сами на него ответили, что нужно. В самом начале я говорила, что это одна из самых тяжелых с точки зрения риска суицида группа подростков.

Екатерина Федорова:

В группе «404» очень много подростков, которые подвергаются насилию. Они нуждаются в этом сообществе. Но и эта группа может быть для них опасна, потому что есть взрослые, которые могут использовать детей.

Вопрос из зала, Андрей:

Я фотожурналист и по совместительству отец двоих детей, один из которых — это девочка 12 лет. Почему, когда мы говорим, запрещать интернет или нет, мы не упоминаем о заместительной терапии? Якобы, когда родители запретят интернет ребенку, то он не будет общаться, не социализируется. Да бред! У нас есть бассейны, танцы, художественные школы. Я знаю, почему родители в большинстве случаев не могут отправить своих детей туда. Во-первых, это стоит денег, во-вторых, это стоит времени. Но вот, если родители не будут брать постоянно кредиты на автомобили, гаджеты, лишний раз не поедят в ресторане, то они все-таки смогут отвести своего ребенка в секции.

Слушатели во время круглого стола Фото: Андрей Любимов для ТД

Я говорю это, исходя из практики. У нас точно такая же проблема, сплошной скандал: «Дайте мне телефон, дайте мне планшет». Мы отбираем, бабушка покупает новые. Снова отберешь их, смотришь, ребенок начинает меняться. Почему вы не говорите об этом?

Любовь Борусяк:

Почему вы не боитесь отправлять ребенка в бассейн? Там же тоже опасно. Вы не сможете оградить его от интернета. Это часть нашей жизни сегодня.

Сила действия, как известно, равна силе противодействия. Идея, что с возраста пяти месяцев надо уже начинать водить ребенка к специалистам, занимать и развивать детей — это очень опасно, потому что у тебя нет времени для того, чтобы понять себя. И когда эта пружина порвется, появляется экзистенциальная пустота.

Вопрос из зала: Павел Никулин, журналист из «Такие дела»:

У меня скорее реплика. Несмотря на то, что здесь много специалистов постоянно говорят, что надо возвращать подросткам субъектность, мы продолжаем говорить о них, как о неодушевленных предметах, недолюдях.

Read also “We are addressed by children who want to commit suicide. Especially on the holidays ” Ekaterina Fedorova, the founder of the project“ Your Territory. Online ”, tells how an anonymous psychological chat for adolescents helps to reduce the number of suicides

Что происходит в головах у детей, можно просто посмотреть из их переписки, есть много сервисов, которые позволяют это сделать. И попробовать это отрефлексировать. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Вопрос из зала: Александр Телишев:

Имеют ли дети право на суицид?

Ольга Калашникова:

Наша задача не спасти человека от суицида, а сделать все возможное, чтобы он избежал таких действий. Про взрослых часто говорят, что ответственности у них больше, и они могут самостоятельно решить, жить им или нет. В отношении подростков все-таки мы придерживаемся мнения, что они не могут самостоятельно это решать, так как психика у них сформирована не до конца. И часто их действия импульсивны из-за свойственной им в этом возрасте эмоциональности.

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The material uses links to publications of social networks Instagram and Facebook, as well as their names are mentioned. These web resources belong to Meta Platforms Inc. - It is recognized in Russia as an extremist organization and is prohibited.