Ukraine speaks with Crimea

Vitaly Portnikov: Ukraine wants to convince Crimea, organizes broadcasting on the peninsula, analyzes the possibilities of strengthening its information influence. How realistic is this task? And do the Crimeans really need such information from Ukrainian sources? Our guest is the First Deputy Minister of Information Policy of Ukraine Emine Jeeppar .

You came to the Ministry of Information Policy recently, when a new government of Ukraine was formed, just when you talked about the need for new approaches to a number of tasks that are facing the Ukrainian authorities, including, by the way, to information policy in Crimea. But how did it happen that two years after the annexation of Crimea in Kyiv, they were not so serious about the need to work with the population of the peninsula, as if he was not there?

Emine Jeeppar: I do not agree that two years have passed. Firstly, the state is a fairly large machine that needs some time to form. It takes time to understand what happened in 2014, both on the human, and at the personal, and state level. This all happened unexpectedly, no one suggested this, and there are no capital formulas how to act in this situation. Today we see that some results are achieved within two years.

Our ministry shows that it can be small - we have only 22 people in our staff. This is the only ministry in which there was a position of adviser to the Minister on Crimea. This work has now begun a member of the national radio broadcast, Sergei Kostinsky, he carried out work in the direction of Crimea for six months. I picked it up - this is volunteering, by and large. It was such a social elevator that allowed me to enter the ministry as the first deputy. For this year, we have an agreement on the Crimea and with journalists who work in the Crimean direction in Kyiv, and with the public, we will demonstrate positive results.

Ukraine wants to convince Crimea, organizes broadcasting on the peninsula

Vitaly Portnikov: Before the annexation of Crimea, the influence of the Russian information space on the peninsula was very large. I would say that the Ukrainian media was always inferior to Russia in this territory. Neither in Donetsk nor in the Lugansk regions was like that.

Emine Jeeppar: The other day held an international forum, Mustafa Dzhemilev spoke there. He was asked: Crimea is in the conditions of information blockade - how can we break it? I will take advantage of his answer - he said that in Soviet times there was an information blockade, today in North Korea the information blockade, and in Ukraine there is no information blockade, and it is not in Crimea. Today, like yesterday, by and large, this is a matter of choice, a person chooses, watching Ukrainian or Russian - both before the annexation and now, since there is definitely a Ukrainian alternative in Crimea: a satellite, the Internet, the radio “Crimea. Realities " that still broadcasts. In principle, we cannot say that in Crimea there is no access to the Ukrainian media. For example, all my relatives watch Ukrainian television channels.

Vitaliy Portnikov: On the other hand, I want to remind you that the Crimean Tatar Asian Canal , which was broadcast in the Crimea, was, in fact, expelled from the territory of Crimea. And it is one thing when the channel broadcasts from the territory of the Crimea itself, when it is in cable networks, and a completely different story, when there will be a need to install a satellite plate, look for it somewhere.

It takes time to understand what happened in 2014, on the human, and at the personal, and state level

Emine Jeeppar: I agree: the problem of the TV channel is not that he left, but that he lost contact with the location. What allows us to say that the Asia -Pacific region was popular in Crimea? The fact that this channel developed content that concerned the local population, he spoke of the Crimean Tatars in Crimea. Today, this channel speaks of Crimean Tatars from Kyiv, and this is a very big difference. Many in the Crimea say: you do not feel specifics, you cannot give local news, that is, you give them, but they, in fact, have broken content. Of course, the situation is not one hundred percent as it should be.

Vitaly Portnikov: I remember that the World Kurdish television, which was by no means from the location of the Kurds, has always been very popular among the Kurdoy speaking population in many countries of the world.

Emine Jeeppar: The Asia -Pacific region is also very popular, and for many Muslims this is the only window to Ukraine today, because thanks to Facebook, thanks to social networks, thanks to the Internet there is an opportunity to receive content from Crimea. The Asia -Pacific TV channel is very great, therefore Ukraine decided for itself that it helps this television channel. Despite the fact that this is a private television channel, the Cabinet of Ministers decided to allocate a large amount of money for its needs.

Vitaly Portnikov: I would argue with this quote by Mr. Dzhemilev that the blockade is like in North Korea ... It always seemed to me that there is such a problem as the desire to choose a more comfortable media source for you. We do all this, unconsciously or consciously.

The Ukrainian alternative in the Crimea is: satellite, Internet, radio "Crimea. Realities "

Emine Jeeppar: It seems to me that the system of the information field of the Russian Federation is also a huge number of television channels, Internet resources, different forms of ownership - Goskanals, private channels, channels that produce very expensive high -quality content ... But I understand that today all these channels are “sharpened” under one system, you don’t even need to strain any propaganda or even write “Temnikov”, as is laid down in the classic Genre, because all television channels, all the media work out one agenda, and this has a very strong effect of influence. They pay experts who drive around the world and show a picture in the Crimea, they pay publications of local media in the countries of stay that give local news and interspers their messages about what is happening today in Ukraine, they form a video, and this is a very effective machine.

In Ukraine, on the one hand, it seems to someone that there is nothing to boast of, and on the other hand, here is a matter of principles. On the one hand, propaganda is expected from our ministry, and on the other, censorship. Some of the journalists say: no, censorship is bad, here is freedom of speech, and propaganda is also not necessary, it clogs consciousness.

There are expectations, on the one hand, and on the other hand, the logic that if we choose certain principles for the development of our country, which only in fact has become independent for two years, then the question is important what tools we use in this. For ourselves, we decided that we did not interfere in the information field, do not control it manually, do not tell the editorial offices what to write or what not to write.

We focus on the monitoring system - this is what Ukraine needs to say on the international platform today, we show Ukraine through our state media. Outside, this is an Inomolenny multimedia platform, UA/TV and the Ukrinform news agency, which give content in many languages. We try to raise this and look for financing so that we can speak in different languages about Ukraine.

On the one hand, propaganda is expected from our ministry, and on the other - censorship

Another of the tasks of our ministry is a communication system. This is not an easy situation, because not every politician is ready to share the component of PR communication. What do we want to implement? We separate the state from politics, create an office of communications, as in the American and British experience that we used when the communications of the state or government are under the same information umbrella. The rest of the work that the ministry does is a little different.

A few more directions are the restoration of broadcasting in the occupied territories. This is the most painful topic, because it requires a large resource. Restoration of towers, establishing transmitters, the formation of certain content ... In the Crimean direction, we probably show a good result, because we work, we have several directions. Our task is to support Crimea for both the international audience and inside.

Recently published data from the polls: almost all Ukrainians have no doubt that Crimea is Ukraine, but half of society believes that Crimea does not need to be returned. For me, as a professional and a person born in Crimea, this figure is not entirely pleasant. I draw from this conclusion that it is necessary to work, consolidate the public opinion of Ukrainian society. We decided to conduct communication campaigns. We already have two successfully implemented campaigns “Crimea is Ukraine”, during which we through ordinary Ukrainians or famous people gave messages to the Crimea that “we have not forgotten about you.” This is important when you live in occupation, in isolation conditions. And we also show the Ukrainians that no, this is not a forgotten story. In Crimea, every two meters you can see boards with Putin or the slogan "Crimea - Russia Forever." It works very effectively. No wonder, probably, millions are investing in these campaigns.

Vitaly Portnikov: Maybe they just cut the budget?

Our task is to support Crimea both for the international audience and inside

Emine Jeeppar: I don't think so. I consulted with experts in the field of technology for influence on consciousness: it works.

Vitaly Portnikov: It is not embarrassed that when we are talking about Crimean information, we, first of all, focus on the Crimean Tatar media, and a huge part of the Crimeans, most of the population still remain on the sidelines?

Emine Jeeppar: Why does the Crimean Tatar theme take some place in the work of our ministry? Not because I am the Crimean Tatar, but because for 20 years there was simply no request to find out who the Crimean Tatars are. Before the annexation, I lived in Kyiv for ten years, there they asked who I am. Today, after the annexation, when the Crimean Tatars proved that they are patriotic, that they can love their homeland, withstand all these difficulties in our history, a request appeared.

In any case, this request must be satisfied, because we have not talked about this for 25 years. Therefore, we are conducting educational work, creating platforms on which we say who the Crimean Tatars are, what they want, we refute myths that these are a people who did not do anything but self -capture of lands ... that is, we fill the information vacuum that accumulated 25 years.

After the annexation, there were two key dates for me, which showed that there was resistance, and a very large part of the population of Crimea does not support the occupation. This is a rally on February 26, when not only Crimean Tatars came at the call of the Mejlis, but also a lot of Ukrainians and Russians. They came under parliament and did not let them vote for separatist decisions.

And these are a number of women's rallies “Women Against War”, which in early March passed throughout Crimea. 40 thousand women, if not more, stood in many cities, villages and villages along roads with Putin, out of Crimea, Crimea against the War, Crimea is Ukraine. This is an indicator that today not only Crimean Tatars live in the agenda of the return of Crimea to Ukraine. It’s just that Crimean Tatars through self -government bodies are better communicated, and everyone else does not have such a platform.

We already have two successfully implemented campaigns "Crimea is Ukraine"

My neighbor (this is an absolutely self -sufficient family) every morning before the referendum opened the curtain and said “Glory to Ukraine!”. Then his wife told me that in the end he went to the referendum. We understand that the factor of fear worked. He was afraid that they would report that he did not go, and this could affect his work.

Vitaly Portnikov: During the reign of Mikhail Saakashvili in Georgia, there was a rather interesting experiment when Georgia tried to create content for Russia - not just for its occupied territories, but for Russia. For a long time there was the first Caucasian Canal. It is difficult to say, of course, what was the level of influence of this channel on Russia, in particular, on the North Caucasus region, however, it was a noticeable phenomenon. Ukraine with the Russian audience has been working as some point things: foreign language, radio-this is all since very ancient times of the Cold War.

Emine Jeeppar: If there were such content, how much would it be? And is it needed now, with such a dominance of content that has an absolutely negative train in relation to Ukraine and Ukrainians, to everything that is associated with our country at all levels of public, political and any other life? You can make high -quality films, but if a person thinks that Ukraine is bad, then the content will not break this, and they have a huge resource in this.

We are conducting educational work, creating platforms on which we say who the Crimean Tatars are, what they want

On the other hand, as you definitely noticed, the Asia -Pacific region was deported from Crimea in fact. Today they create reality in parallel, through those Crimean Tatar channels that are. For example, the Fifth Point channel, which speaks of Crimean Tatars, makes local news in the Crimean Tatar and Russian languages, it can be watched on a satellite in Russia. This channel shows a picture of the Crimean Tatar life, convinces that in Crimea everything is good and the Crimean Tatars are happy. There is simply nothing about the facts of searches, repression there. They even illuminated the episode with Eurovision so that they showed a 90% plot about Lazarev, then a little the rest, and only at the end - that yes, the Ukrainian singer of the Crimean Tatar origin won. But this is a television channel whose target audience is the Crimean Tatar people.

Vitaly Portnikov: In theory, the victory of Dzhamala should not cause such irritation in Russia. It was a victory at the song competition. And from the point of view of Moscow, Crimean Tatars live in Russia; According to the Russian leadership and Russian society, there was nothing to share here.

Emine Jeeppar: This, it seems to me, is such a public corn as a complex of guilt: you know inside yourself that you are to blame for what you have done wrong. I remember the same topic was played with Ukrainian initiatives on the Holodomor ; The Russian side automatically translated this into the field of politics, began to jerk, crush these initiatives, say that there was no holodomor, there was hunger in the Kuban, and in general, there was nothing artificial. That is, they, thus, take responsibility for themselves for the crimes of the regime in the past.

The same thing about the story with a deportation. Jamala said that this is a song not so much about politics as about part of our history, our identification, it was her attempt to tell about this pain, this is her personal story, the story of her grandmother ... When the Russians make this politics, this is probably more a confession of their guilt than what you said.

Ukraine with the Russian audience has been working as some point things: foreign knowledge, radio-this is all since very ancient times of the Cold War

Vitaliy Portnikov: With the current difficult legal realities, when Ukraine is not very enthusiastic about the accreditation of journalists with the so -called “Ministry of Information of the Donetsk Self -Properned Republics”, how to work in Crimea to journalists, including foreign, including Russian? Crimea, from the point of view of international law, is the territory of Ukraine, from a Russian point of view, is just a subject of the Russian Federation, and from a Ukrainian point of view, you need to enter Crimea through Ukrainian checkpoints. From a Russian point of view, you can calmly come to the Crimea without crossing the borders with Russia, inside its space. And what to do in such a situation to the journalist - Ukrainian, Russian, foreign?

Emine Jeeppar: I remember very well your words on the forum, which we did on February 26 regarding the second anniversary of the occupation. You said that when the Crimean Tatars were deported and brought other people to these houses, it was a matter of choice - to live in this house, the issue of internal permission - can I live in a strange house? I have an analogy with this - a journalist chooses that there is Crimea for him, and chooses for himself the path of message with this territory. If he believes that Crimea is Russia, then, most likely, he is more comfortable to sit on a plane, fly to Moscow through Simferopol. If a person believes that this is the territory of Ukraine (and this is also a civic position), then, despite the difficulties with the registration of the pass ... we, as a ministry, are trying to simplify this in manual mode: according to the law, they have the right to consider documents to five days before issuing a journalist to the journalist, and we reduced this to one day - we go with a journalist and ask for him.

What happened to the "peacekeeper" is very significant. When we, on the one hand, have civil society, and on the other hand, journalists, there are some norms and ethics about the personal data of journalists. This is absolutely not an attempt to diminish the dignity of the “peacemaker” as a platform, but the publication of personal data is still not quite an ethical step.

Виталий Портников: Но, опять-таки, это связано с той юридической неразберихой, которая вообще существует вокруг журналистской деятельности на оккупированной территории.

Мир говорит, что Крым — это Украина, резолюция Генеральной ассамблеи ООН осуждает оккупацию, сто стран подписались под этой резолюцией

Эмине Джеппар: В отношении этого есть мировая практика, и как долго это будет, мы тоже не знаем, поскольку Россия продолжает жить в своей реальности, а мы - в своей. Мир говорит, что Крым — это Украина, резолюция Генеральной ассамблеи ООН осуждает оккупацию, сто стран подписались под этой резолюцией. Мы живем в условиях параллельных реальностей.

Виталий Портников: Как вы оцениваете уровень влияния украинских средств массовой информации в Крыму и на Востоке Украины? Существует ли значительное число людей, которые доверяют украинским СМИ, хотели бы быть их потребителями?

Эмине Джеппар: Я могу сказать только о каких-то своих ощущениях, ведь нет социологии, нет цифр, которые могли бы это подтвердить. Я четко знаю, что сегодня российская пропаганда — это не та традиционная геббельсовская пропаганда, целью которой было переубедить человека. Сегодня Россия вводит много ноу-хау-технологий по реализации новой задачи - не переубедить человека, а заставить его сомневаться, не доверять. В этом информационном потоке, где постоянная неправда, где формируется реальность, далекая от действительности, стоит задача, чтобы человек просто потерялся, не знал, кому верить. Это полная информационная дезориентация. Поэтому сегодня не доверяют никому. Даже проукраински настроенные граждане Украины на оккупированных территориях, на востоке нашей страны говорят: да, российские СМИ говорят неправду, но, кажется, и украинские СМИ недалеко от них ушли.

Виталий Портников: Кстати говоря, и на Западе многие считают, что российские и украинские СМИ просто находятся по разные стороны идеологического и пропагандистского барьера, и только.

Мы живем в условиях параллельных реальностей

Эмине Джеппар: Мне кажется, это во многом еще и часть той задачи, которую отрабатывают сегодня российские пропагандисты и технологи.

Виталий Портников: А когда освобождали Украину на востоке, можно ли сказать, что там население сразу стало с большим интересом и доверием относиться к украинским медиа?

Эмине Джеппар: Я знаю точно, мне советник министра, который сейчас стал народным депутатом, сказал, что на этой полосочке, которая контролируется Украиной, массово ставят спутники. Для нас это показатель того, что пытаются смотреть украинские телеканалы. Мы делаем из этого вывод, что есть определенный уровень доверия к украинским СМИ и желание смотреть украинские СМИ.

Виталий Портников: Факт информационной войны не изменяет саму структуру медиа, если они вынуждены, так или иначе, участвовать в информационной войне, когда настоящая война идет рядом?

Сегодня не доверяют никому

Эмине Джеппар: Это как с онкологией. Когда ты узнаешь, что у тебя, предположим, рак на стадии, не поддающейся лечению, ты решаешь, как себя вести - либо ты пытаешься лечиться, либо просто расслабляешься и живешь. Когда ты знаешь, что в этой информационной войне твой соперник гораздо сильнее тебя не только потому, что он вкладывает туда гораздо большие ресурсы, а просто потому, что у него такая система, которая в принципе не предполагает свободы слова (она милитаристская, контролируется в ручном режиме), тогда ты думаешь, как выстраивать эту политику.

Виталий Портников: Когда в Украине появилось Министерство информационной политики, многие считали, что это действительно будет такое пропагандистское цензурное ведомство. Как вам кажется, за это время министерство обрело какую-то свою роль? Когда вы пришли туда в качестве заместителя министра, вас не пугало, что вы пришли в государственную структуру, которая должна заниматься информацией?

Эмине Джеппар: Нет. У меня была немножко другая мотивация. Я зашла через Крым — это моя попытка говорить о Крыме, то, что я делала как волонтер и продолжаю теперь делать как первый заместитель министра.

Министерство существует чуть менее двух лет, и мы только формируем для себя нишу, берем направление

В журналистской среде есть определенный уровень невосприятия, потому что министерство по факту существует чуть менее двух лет, и мы только формируем для себя нишу, берем направление. Мы сейчас, по сути, боремся за свою компетенцию. Коммуникация того, что мы делаем, есть, но у всех было ожидание и свое собственное представление, которое сложно поменять. Только демонстрируя кейсы, потихонечку со временем мы будем это менять. Я думаю, что в долгосрочной перспективе мы сможем дать этому министерству содержание, систематизировать и коммуницировать его.

Виталий Портников: Вы не опасаетесь, что в перспективе Россия сделает все возможное, чтобы вообще вытеснить из Крыма любое украинское и крымско-татарское слово? Вся эта информация в результате будет вытеснена на материк.

Эмине Джеппар: Конечно, они используют для этого максимальное количество методов, в том числе, глушение радиовещания и телевидения.

Виталий Портников: Уже есть глушение?

Все-таки благодаря интернету мы имеем сегодня свет в конце тоннеля, имеем возможность получать альтернативу

Эмине Джеппар: Пока нет, но почему? Если они сейчас выискивают экстремизм в каждом слове любого человека, даже в Фейсбуке уже ковыряют… Вернусь к словам Джемилева: все-таки благодаря интернету мы имеем сегодня свет в конце тоннеля, имеем возможность получать альтернативу. В Северной Корее глушат даже интернет.

Виталий Портников: Не надо, как в Северной Корее, надо сделать, как в Китае, где есть разрешенные сайты. Хочу напомнить, что в России существует большое количество собственно российских сайтов, доступ к которым ограничен соответствующими решениями Роскомназдора, и это абсолютно в русле легитимного законодательства.

Эмине Джеппар: Это еще одно доказательство того, что эта страна престала быть рукопожатной для всех других стран. Режим сам обрекает себя на полную изоляцию, не существует как единица в экосистеме стран.

Виталий Портников: По-моему, это и есть цель российского руководства — перестать существовать там.

Эмине Джеппар: Мне кажется, это классика - «умом Россию не понять». Я четко ощущаю, какова в России логика по Крыму: вогнать людей в страх, запретить говорить, выгнать активную часть населения, заставить самодепортироваться активистов. Это попытка показать любому, кто пытается хоть как-то сопротивляться, что он может стать следующей жертвой, что его могут завтра убить, изнасиловать, посадить в машину, увезти в неизвестном направлении, а тело найдут в лесу.

Россия престала быть рукопожатной для других стран. Режим сам обрекает себя на полную изоляцию

Но в целом в условиях глобального мира ты никогда не сможешь в одиночку справиться с вызовами, даже опираясь на свой огромный ресурс, на наличие пресной воды, нефти, газа и все другие ресурсы, которыми богата страна, потому что все равно есть угрозы. И внутри России очень много факторов, которые могут взорваться в любой момент, - они требуют финансов. Они, по сути, удерживают свою федерацию благодаря огромному влиянию - возьмите историю Северного Кавказа.

Я думаю, что та политика, которую они избрали сейчас для себя и которую мне лично не понять, потому что это как кнопочка на самоуничтожение, так или иначе приведет к каким-то либо дезинтеграционным процессам в самой Российской Федерации, либо к тому, что эта страна перестанет существовать в экосистеме, и это будет началом ее конца.

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