"We live in a madhouse"

In Poland, a scandal erupted around the law approved by the parliament of the law on counteracting terrorist activities. The opposition and many representatives of civil society believe that the law gives too many powers to special services. The ruling law-conservative party “Law and Justice” (PIS) leads the country to autocracy, says the famous Polish journalist and public figure, editor-in-chief of the anti-celllar satirical weekly NIE Jerzy Urban. The correspondent of The New Times met with him

During the rating television program “Scandalists” on the Polish TV hedgehog Urban (in the picture) , * dressing in episcopal clothes, defiantly lit up, Warsaw, 2015*

In early June, the European Commission officially warned Poland: in the country there was a threat of the rule of law. Brussels discontent was caused by the amendments to the powers of the constitutional tribunal, which now actually became controlled by the Sejm. A warning that can result in the temporary deprivation of Warsaw of the right to vote in the EU did not take actions on the Polish authorities: “This is just a recommendation,” they retorted. On June 10, the Sejm adopted a new law - on anti -terrorism activities, which, under a number of conditions, allows special services to prohibit rallies and demonstrations. After that, in the European Parliament, preparations began for the new debates on the Polish issue, which will be held in July, after the Pis Congress on a non-alternative basis will again choose the leader of the party of Yaroslav Kachinsky, the older brother of the ex-president of Lech Kachinsky, who died in a plane crash near Smolensk in April 2010. Meanwhile, the Polish Ombudsman Adam Bodnar addressed Polish President Andrzej Duda with a request, before signing the law on anti -terrorism activities, send him for examination to the constitutional tribunal. Whose powers are again truncated. Is the circle closed?

"I hate the new government"

Pan Urban, how do you live in Poland today? How do you feel after Dobrej Zmiany?*

I feel terribly. I just hate the new government, and our whole editors laugh at what it does.

If I am not mistaken, you have never demonstrated a special love for power ...

Today there are things that can even have fascist consequences. The head of the ruling party, Yaroslav Kachinsky, leads and manages everything, makes decisions regarding the courts, the army, the media. I would call this a return to socialism, only socialism was much softer and liberal. New Polish authorities lead Poland in the direction of autocracy.

But Pis also has positive initiatives. For example, a program to help families "500 plus" **. Or a program to acquire inexpensive housing using the state.

What you are talking about, in general, is correct. But first of all, this indicates that the previous Polish authorities allowed a huge gap in some things. The past authorities had shortcomings, but there was one big plus - it stood outside of any ideology. Tusk (Donald Tusk, ex-head of the Polish government and ex-leader of the Civil Platform party.- NT ) believed that the party and the government should engage in purely pragmatic tasks and not carry any mission. And today we live in a crazy house: the whole story of Poland is a shed, the history of Russian-Polish relations of the column, some strange people become national heroes.

The way the elite spoke among herself terribly struck ordinary Poles and, of course, affected the election results

As for the examples you cited, theoretically these are good plans, but if we talk about practical performance, they are bad. Yes, we need to help families - but not to everyone, but really in need, but to direct the remaining funds for the construction of new nurseries and kindergartens, to professional courses for the unemployed.

Last fall, Pis honestly won the election. How predictable was this victory?

It could be foreseen, but this was not done by stupidity. The previous government was blind, stupid and arrogant. It is enough to recall the scandal with a wiretap. *** How the elite spoke among themselves terribly hit ordinary Poles and, of course, also affected the election results. But in any case, the current government has much more disadvantages than the past.

How do you think the changes in Poland confirm the thesis about the crisis of European democracy?

Strengthening nationalist trends is really a problem in Europe, but not dominant. And I hope it will not become dominant. And I also hope that the EU can handle it. It is very important that liberal-democratic forces find an answer to important social issues: stratification of society, employment of youth, etc.

Today it is said a lot about the fact that Pis intends to change suffrage, - do you think this will happen?

It is difficult to say how much they succeed. Still, there is a constitution in which it is clearly said what the elections should be. The conflict around the constitutional tribunal caused public protests and the negative reaction of the EU and the USA.

Pis representatives emphasize in every possible way that signals from the West are not very important for them ...

Important, important. They only pretend.

What will happen next?

I think soon the PIS power will be disappointed. Their promises will not be fulfilled, this will affect the country's economy, and then the mood of people will change in the opposite direction. As for the 500 Plus program, this money will become a familiar part of the family budget and cease to surprise.

Unfortunately, today liberal forces cannot offer anything in return, they do not even have promises. And the promise is actually a lot, it is hope. Even if the promise is not fulfilled, but for some time it still “works”. And the liberal forces have nothing - neither promises nor ideas regarding the future of Poland, no concept regarding the EU - nothing. Only criticism of Pis.

In the genre of classics

You are called the main Polish provocateur. They say that you organized a round table between Ukrainian and Polish prostitutes, wanted to buy a church to open a casino and a disco in it - was that all?

Certainly! A round table between Polish and Ukrainian prostitutes even shot French television!

Why did this idea arise?

It was a parody of international negotiations. International negotiations are held with the aim of resolving conflicts, finding profitable solutions for all negotiators, right?. Well, we decided to gather prostitutes so that they agree among themselves: do not fight, do not report to each other, did not drag each other by the hair and did not lure customers (laughs). All these agreements were recorded by the language classic for international negotiations. Something in style: "For peace and good neighborliness between our peoples ..."

Why did Russian prostitutes not participate in the round table?

So they were replaced by Ukrainian!

"Who dumped?" - A parody of the picture of Leonardo da Vinci "The Secret Office". Caricature from NIE magazine, 2016

And what about the church - you bought it in the end?

The church was auctioned, as the paraffin was bankrupt. And we said that we want to buy it. I just wanted to scare them. They were not just scared - a terrible panic began among Catholics! But how - Antichrist buys a church! Well, somehow they themselves found money ...

Is it true that you drove the wax figure of Lech Valens in Warsaw in the open limousine?

Yes. And it was very funny. We bought a wax figure of Valenes in Copenhagen, in the museum of wax figures, for some minor money. We bought a plane ticket-not in the luggage compartment, but a business class. There was a hitch at the Warsaw Airport at customs, but we all wore Valence in the limousine in Warsaw.

What is your favorite provocation?

The government Gazeta Polska called on her readers to arrange pickets before kiosks against Nie. But for some reason, there were no people who wanted to. And then we decided in the very center of Warsaw to hold such a picket ourselves. With banners: “Do not buy nie!”, “Nie - Jewish newspaper!” "Patriot is wiping nie!" Well, we are standing with these banners in the center of Warsaw. And then the whole editors of Gazeta Polska come and is poured into our picket. Of course, we photographed all this, and then published a report how Gazeta Polska participated in our picket - in a word, made idiots from them.

"No one knew what I would say"

According to a variety of people who remember the times when you were a press secretary of the Yaruzelsky government, your press conferences were perceived as a show: “We just fled to TVs because Urban was the best press secretary of all time, because it was unusually witty.” What advice would you give the current Polish government?

First of all, I would carefully evaluate what the opposition offers and searched for shortcomings in these sentences. But did not throw slogans such as "antipolis opposition", etc. After all, the current Polish government, as a gramophone plate: all the "scribblers" repeat the same thing! Therefore, no one wants to listen to anything, because it is known in advance what the press secretary of the government will say. When I spoke to reporters, no one knew what I would talk about.

The whole story of Poland is shed, the history of Russian-Polish relations of the column, some strange people become national heroes

But you agreed on your speeches with Yaruzelsky?

Certainly. But I could not foresee what questions would be from journalists. I myself made decisions what to answer. I did not have the right to make a policy-I had the right to formulate some things in which the government’s policy was not yet completely clear. I had a certain political independence, which, of course, was a consequence of confidence in me from Yaruzelsky.

“For me, gentlemen!”, Caricature from Nie magazine, 2016

Have you made mistakes?

These were not mistakes-it happened that I voiced some things on behalf of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, which were not true. Sometimes I guessed that it was a deception, but was forced to repeat it. Sometimes I had the powers from Yaruzelsky to refute some things voiced by the ministries. In general, I was the only source of information, the only person who was not afraid to speak. At some point, I even became famous, they began to invite me to different countries so that I taught press secretaries: where such Urbans come from.

About Putin

According to recent studies of the Levada Center, Poland in the perception of ordinary Russians ranks fourth after the USA, Ukraine and Turkey as an enemy country.

Poland itself is to blame. Instead of engaging in politics, it is engaged in the production of incidents. Of the recent, one can recall the liquidation of the monument to the Soviet soldiers and the statement that there were two types of invaders in Poland: during the Second World War, the Germans, and after the war, Russians. But this is not true, because a country, depending, is completely different than the country in occupation. Well, then we must still understand that the victory cost the Russians 27 million lives. And the elimination of monuments is the stupidity and abomination that demonstrates the chauvinism of the current government. In general, this is absolute stupidity - such a policy in which Russia is evaluated as an eternal enemy. Russia will always be a neighbor of Poland. Russia will always be a large trading partner of Poland. And I say this, not being a supporter of Putin’s policy ...

Is the Polish government policy look like Putin?

Not yet. Not yet.

Does Kachinsky look like Putin?

Putin has more charisma. Kacinsky may impress, but he is not charismatic. I was in Russia in the early 1990s and saw how the division of large oligarchs and regional ones was happening-in fact, the collapse of the state took place. And Putin was those who began to recreate the state. But then this construction was transformed into the creation of the state as its property.

* Dobra zmiana (good change - Polish.) - the slogan of the ruling conservative party PIS ("Law and Justice"), which won the elections in the fall of 2015.

** According to this program, families with children stand out a monthly allowance of 500 zlotys (about $ 130) for the second and subsequent child.

*** In June 2015, the Polish media published compromising records of conversations of influential officials and politicians of the country in a famous Warsaw restaurant.

Dossier

82-year-old Jerzy Urban is one of the most controversial figures of Polish politics and journalism. In the days of communist Poland, Urban was first forbidden to publish under his surname, and then he generally received a ban on the profession. Despite this, hedgehogs Urban, as he himself emphasizes, was never in the opposition: “This does not correspond to my ideas about dignity: go to the opposition only because they gave you under the ass?” From 1981 to 1989, Urban was a press secretary of the government of Wojciech Yaruzelsky. Today, hedgehogs urban regularly placing videos on YouTube, which collect millions of views.

Photo: Laski Diffusion/East News