How to live with terror

Talking with Tsvetkov

Alexander Genis: At the height of the primaries season, many Columnists said that only a large terrorist act separates from the White House of Trump: if, God forbid, he will happen, then the majority will vote for Trump. There was a simple thought behind this consideration. The more fear the Americans suffer, the more likely they will support a candidate who promises cool measures. Among them is a ban on Muslim emigration, the legalization of torture, revenge for relatives of terrorists and others, as his critics indicate, illegal, unconstitutional, irrational and anti -vehicle actions.

Since then, terrorist acts both in the old and in a new light followed one after another. And although it is not clear how these circumstances are reflected in Trump's chances, it is clear that terror intervened in the struggle for the electorate, forcing himself to consider himself almost the main topic of the elections.

Of course, this is not the first time. One of the most solid presidential candidates, the former governor of Florida Jeb Bush, before leaving the struggle, said that terror was “an organized attempt to destroy Western civilization”.

This statement caused the indignation of the observer Ny Times (and, by the way, the Nobel laureate) of Paul Krguman.

“No,” he wrote, “is not a threat to“ all Western civilization ”, this is an attempt by terrorists to sow panic. And everything needs to be done so that such an attempt fails.

To this, as I understand it, is our answer to terror. The rest are engaged in the authorities. They need to look for the guilty, eradicate the nests of the conspirators, protect the boundaries, fight the promotion of Islamists, improve the social environment, block financial flows - that is, engage in all that competent politicians, smart secret services and a worthy police.

And yet. No matter how terrible and disgusting is not choosing the victims of terror, there is nothing new in it. We have been living with him for a long time and everywhere.

I will never forget that autumn day when the “twins” melted in my eyes in black smoke. Then everyone also talked about the “war with terror”, which turned around the war with Iraq, which today many Americans, starting with the president, consider it a mistake.

Of course, politicians can be understood: today we ourselves demand strict measures from them. From them, but not from themselves. Our task is to live, as always. In the end, we do not close schools due to the fact that berserkers with rifles that do not even interfere with buying them are killed in them. As shows that the old one, that the new, is the latest history, the most successful of all with terror is the routine that prevents us from intimidating us.

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Alexander Genis: “How to live with terror” - we discuss this topic with the poet and publicist Alexei Tsvetkov in the framework of the monthly column, which, as the regular listeners of our program know, is called “Talking with Tsvetkov”.

Alexey, today I propose to discuss the topic that everyone has on the lips, because this summer reminded me of the name of Hemingway's famous book “Dangerous Summer”. Endless terrorist acts in the Old World and in the New World create an atmosphere of fear, and in this atmosphere terror seems the main threat to civilization.

Alexey Tsvetkov: I’ll start, perhaps, why: of course, all the eyes immediately rush to Muslims. Muslims in the world billion six hundred million, as I understand it, are obviously several thousand of them, including the notorious Islamic state, terrorists or potential terrorists. And we are actually reduced to the level of citizens of the second or third grade a significant share of the world's population. Moreover, they are first of all - the victims of this terror, every day we read about explosions in Kabul, Baghdad, Dacca, but when it is in Nice, then it gets us. But in fact, Muslims are killed many times more than us, if I am talking on behalf of conditionally white European, not necessarily white European, I do not even know what to call this population.

Alexander Genis: On behalf of the West.

Alexey Tsvetkov: On behalf of the West, yes. Suppose I’m now drawing a small script, for example, in our district they are going to open a mosque. Naturally, we come out with screams, with songs, with banners, with slogans, so that this never can be. We win, these Muslims unfortunate continue to pray in their basement or somewhere in a warehouse. But it turns out that we have just banned the construction of the Ismailis mosque - this is the completely pacifist part of Islam and and they are the main victims of terror, that is, almost all other Muslims mercilessly kill them. That is, we act as allies of terrorists.

Alexander Genis: You know, this script is far from new. I remember the story with the construction of the mosque right next to the place of the explosion of the “twins” who died on September 11. I remember the demonstrations in which the New York population actively took part, and I must say that the New York people are extremely religious, to take them to the street not just on this occasion.

Alexey Tsvetkov: Nearby, but everyone said that it would be in the place of the explosion.

Alexander Genis: Very close. All this is next to our studio, well -known places for us. After all, on September 11, all the glasses in this building, where we are sitting now, was carried out by an explosion. We were the target number 7, if the terrorists could not blow up the “twins”, then we would be in their place. The disputes about the mosque were very hot. Their essence came down to the fact that, of course, people who gather in the mosque are not to blame for anything, they are not terrorists. They objected: all the attacks began in the mosque. And this, of course, is an argument. I must say that it all ended with the fact that the mosque was not built. But this is even funny. Do you know how many mosques are in New York? More than a hundred. So one more, one less, nothing will change.

What would you answer to those people who say that all terrorist acts begin in a particular mosque?

Alexey Tsvetkov: I would answer them with a very simple small excursion into the past, when no one heard about Muslim terror, and the terror, nevertheless, raged. You remember our comparative youth when there were a lot of terrorist groups, when they experimented with mass terror, theft of aircraft that the organization of Palestine began, I will remember, for example, in Israel there were mass acts of terror with a capture of more than a hundred people when 25 were killed.

Alexander Genis: I remember how you are perfectly other acts of terror, including European acts of terror. I remember when I came to America, the tragedy was just unfolding with the abduction of the Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro. We watched the terrorists mock him day after day. This was the time when there were terrorists in West Germany, in Italy there were terrorists. Then they talked not so much about Muslim terror as about left terror, as the greatest danger.

Alexey Tsvetkov: One news is some kind of compared to this, which is why now Islamic terror is in the spotlight. There was a large terror, there was a mass terror. This, what you say-killed entrepreneurs, Aldo Moro killed-it was like a movie for us, we are not the prime ministers, but they killed the masses, Lokerbi remember, there was nothing Islamic in this, although it came from Libya. There were Basque, the Irish Republican Army - but it was all scattered groups, it was impossible to just go and become an Irish republican army man or anyone. And now, for a number of geopolitical reasons, people first found al-Qaeda, and now the Islamic state, Islam in one small dull of some piece that can be swallowed in a minute. This terrorist in Nice, he was not an Islamist, just Islamic origin, he turned to Islam a few days before the attack, and before that he was a small criminal, he sat for violent acts, he lived like such a lumpen. Lumpen is a bad word, it is called underglass in English. This is the base where they are recruited, now in Europe it is mainly of Middle Eastern or North African origin.

Alexander Genis: We can say that they impersonate Islamic terrorists, but in fact this is an apology for them in order to commit an act of violence. This is often not an ideological crime, but a psychological shift that leads to such consequences. Islamic terrorism gives a convenient reason - it is easy to attribute to something more important than you.

Alexey Tsvetkov: Not only the reason, but also the resonance. Because as soon as such a terrorist attack takes place, everyone is immediately looking for an Islamic trace, but here it is for you. The man became famous, he took the truck for rent, he decided to somehow take revenge on the world. Group suicides have always been when a person kills himself and several more people, usually his family. And here it is on every screen of the computer, this news instantly flies around the globe.

Alexander Genis: That is, a terrorist attack as a search for glory, Herostratov Glory, which is connected with Islam insofar as. But it seems to me that it’s just so easier for us to live. When we know who is to blame, it is already easier to think what to do, because there is some basis for a rational judgment. For example, pursue Islam.

In the Russian Facebook, where very intolerant statements are often found, one lady wrote that she knows what to do. Obama does not know, Merkel does not know, all these liberals who destroy civilization do not know, but she knows: it is necessary to separate all Muslims from the rest - normal - people. She guesses that Muslims in America are also more than one million, therefore, a lady writes, we will do this: for starters, we will forbid them to occupy socially advanced works, for example, Muslims should not be in the army, the police, and firefighters cannot be, school teachers and so on. At the same time, all Muslims in America should be happy that in this way they will be fenced with suspicions in radical Islamism.

How do you like such a “modest proposal”?

Alexey Tsvetkov: We now have such a presidential candidate, by the way, who thinks very closely, he has even more radical solutions. Of course, this is monstrous, but I would not pay attention to it, you never know what ladies on Facebook are. It is sad that the people with whom in any other situation you speak on an equal footing are interested in communication with them, as soon as you get to this, absolutely not explain anything.

Alexander Genis: There are several such topics that today it is very difficult to talk even with close friends. One of those as you know, Ukraine, Crimea. Another such topic is Trump. The third topic is Islamic terror. All these three topics are terribly painful. I must say that the closest friends, from whom he certainly did not expect this, can say something wild. They express some arguments, I would not say that they are correct, but in any case they sound sincerely. Let's say such an argument: Islamic terrorism today is an indisputable and obvious danger. Why are Muslims around the world not protests against Islamic terrorism?

Alexey Tsvetkov: Firstly, they, of course, are performing.

Alexander Genis: In Paris, a million people went out into the streets, in Kiev, when the guardsmen of Yanukovych beat students, a million people went out into the streets. And where are these millions of Muslims that would protest against terror?

Alexey Tsvetkov: They also make up a small minority of the population in the West.

Alexander Genis: Why isn’t there such a thing in Pakistan? Why are there no demonstrations in Islamic countries that would protest against terror. After all, it concerns most of all, as you quite rightly noticed, the Muslims themselves.

Alexei Tsvetkov: A second, Pakistan and most of these countries, where, by the way, most of this terror is made, firstly, their own compatriots should be made to them. Secondly, these are far from democratic countries, there such a demonstration can become a reason for mass terror or a fight. In addition, we see all these people on one face, and they are completely different. They are often the main enemies for each other, not us. We do not demand when 300 people were killed in Baghdad, we do not demand that they go to demonstration. We demand sympathy when ours killed Lumpen in Nice, for which they do not bear any responsibility. When Muslims protest with the slogans “not on our behalf”, no one pays attention to this or immediately forgets. But when skyscrapers, towers collapsed, and you know that there were dancing on the streets in Ramalla - everyone remembers.

Alexander Genis: They danced with happiness.

Alexey Tsvetkov: And they remember this, and this will always be reminded of you. Very selectively. In addition, Muslims do not have such power, there is no such higher authority.

Alexander Genis: There is no Roman pope.

Alexey Tsvetkov: The Pope is also not the head of all Christians.

Alexander Genis: For Catholics, the boss. Therefore, the Pope can apologize for the crimes of the Inquisition, for example, but Muslims do not have such an authority.

Alexey Tsvetkov: Muslims have no such bosses. The Shiites have some local, Ayatollah Sistan in Iraq means something, he can do something, but he is already old, he, by the way, did some things. They do not have a pyramid, hierarchy, as it is in many, especially liturgical Christian religions, in Catholicism and in Orthodoxy.

Alexander Genis: So you want to say that we do not understand the nature of Islam? We do not understand the social and psychological and religious conditions in which Islam lives?

Here I agree with you. And the fact that for us they are all on one face is also right. I remember when I was in Japan, the Japanese asked me: tell me, do you distinguish the Koreans from the Japanese? I was terribly uncomfortable, I am not a racist: I say, of course, I distinguish. And we, they say, are not distinguished. I realized that I got into trouble and immediately confessed to his stupidity. But they told me: you are not upset, Japan is the only country in a world where there has never been anti -Semitism. Why? For us, all white are on one face.

Alexey Tsvetkov: But they have Koreans instead of Jews, unfortunately.

Alexander Genis: Historians today, discussing the most important tragedy of the twentieth century - the First World War, they say that the source of this war is a misunderstanding. The fact is that the West responded inadequately to the single terrorist act of Gavrila of the principle of Europe. The First World War led to the death of four empires. This happened precisely because the terrorist act was equated with war, that is, they did not understand the nature of terror. Other historians who discuss more recent events say that the war in Iraq, which Bush Jr., was the same inadequate response to the attack on September 11, and thus led the XXI century in the other direction, because the main event of the 21st century was the war with terror, which continues today.

What do you think, what is the reaction to the terror of the state, personal, sovereign, psychological and universal human, is the most adequate?

Alexey Tsvetkov: The fact is that terror has always existed. You can recall the Herostratus, who, in a sense, was a terrorist, hoped for consequences. But in principle, terror in a more or less modern concept arose in the second half of the 19th century and it is no coincidence that the mass publication of newspapers began. True, he was then a single, as a rule, political, not in vain we are talking about a shot of principle.

Alexander Genis: You can start earlier, with Russian terror. The king was killed, much further.

Alexey Tsvetkov: President McKinli was killed in America.

Alexander Genis: In England there were anarchists who arranged a terrorist act every day. If we recall the literature of that time, Wells, Conan Doyle, Konrad, they have anarchists all the time, their terrorist activity was the same ordinary part of life as today.

Alexei Tsvetkov: That's right, President McCinley really killed an anarchist. But that is not the point. They all counted on, of course, for resonance in the press, hoping that close to them would respond in spirit, a revolution or something like that. But now we are experiencing a new round, which was not 30 years ago, when the terror was massive, but disparate and it did not have such a corn. Today, when blood is pouring in Nice or in a shopping center in Munich shots are heard, then instantly on the entire globe everyone sits in front of the screens and the press is carried.

Alexander Genis: Terror coexists with massive means of information, the current terror cannot exist without media.

Alexey Tsvetkov: That's right. Here we approach the question of questions. We will never get rid of terror - this is understandable, because it has always been. In addition, asymmetric types of weapons have now appeared in terrorists. The man finally took a truck, and crushed passers -by.

Alexander Genis: As we recall, the monstrous action on September 11 is associated with knives for cutting carpets and cardboard boxes. When I worked as a loader, I also had such a knife, there was a blade one and a half centimeters, but this was enough to crush two “twins” and change the history of the 21st century.

Alexey Tsvetkov: But now I want to turn aside precisely mass and instant information. This is what modern terrorism parasitizes and what lives. If you give himself a thought for a minute, he is absolutely weak, he cannot do anything, he cannot crush the smallest government in the smallest country, but he sowing a panic, and we are very ambulance.

Alexander Genis: Moreover, of course, it is necessary to remember the scale all the time. The fact is that we have much more chances to die from a lightning strike than from a terrorist act. This must always be kept in mind, because individual terror can never be compared with state terror. Stalin had the opportunity to kill millions, but the Islamic terrorists, they can kill 30, 40 people, they can destroy two “twins”, but they cannot destroy, for example, a class of fists.

Алексей Цветков: Сталин или Гитлер, любое тоталитарное государство террор монополизирует, ему конкуренты не нужны. То есть террор в конечном счете паразитирует на открытом обществе. Я не вижу решений этого вопроса, потому что уничтожить террор нельзя, единственное, можно давить на информацию...

Александр Генис: Тогда не будет свободного общества.

Алексей Цветков: Во-первых, не будет свободного общества, во-вторых, нас вообще опрокинет в каменный век. Мы же повязаны компьютерной информацией, мы пальцем не можем шевельнуть без нее. В огромном городе, где мы сейчас сидим, все работает на компьютерах. Можно совершить какую-то диверсию, повредив эти компьютеры, перекрыв подачу воды, электричества или еще чего-нибудь. И, видимо, это будет. Но самое страшное в терроре, хотя такие операции могут быть в тех масштабах, каких до сих пор не было, самое страшное в терроре — это резонанс.

Александр Генис: От резонанса рушатся мосты.

Алексей Цветков: У нас есть очень простой выход — перекрыть все каналы информации, то, что сейчас Эрдоган пытается сделать, но он все равно не сможет это сделать в Турции до той степени, чтобы полностью подавить террор.

Александр Генис: Это не смогли сделать ни в Китае, ни в России, никто не может перекрыть информацию полностью. Мы с вами знаем хорошо, потому что мы на Радио Свобода работаем уже столько лет, а оно всегда шло “поверх барьеров”.

Алексей Цветков: Но в любом случае поворот в эту сторону - к тотальной слежке и к подавлению информации — это и есть победа террора, другой он не может одержать. Говорят, что во Франции будет исламское правительство, никогда не будет исламского правительства там. Если пережмешь, я не говорю во Франции, в какой-нибудь абстрактной стране, мы ее не знаем, абстрактная либеральная страна, где эта паника перехлестнула, режим стал авторитарный или очень сильно авторитарный, всех держит в ежовых рукавицах, террор, не террор, государство распорядится, государство знает лучше.

Александр Генис: Потому что страх опасен. Но те, кто готовы обменять свободу на безопасность, не получат ни того, ни другого, и это нам как раз показала история ХХ века.

Вы знаете, мне всегда казалось, что тут есть еще и лингвистическая проблема. Слова ведь значат очень много. Я помню, когда началась операция в Афганистане, тот же Буш-младший начал войну не в Ираке, а в Афганистане, как мы помним, операция эта сперва называлась «Крестовый поход» - это примерно, как назвать ее «Вальпургиева ночь». Слава богу, название заменили. Но это к тому, как много значат слова. Мне кажется, что такое опасное слово в наше время — это именно война с террором, потому что никакой войны с террором на самом деле нет, это все равно, как сказать война с танками. Террор — это орудие, воевать с террором невозможно, потому что у него нельзя выиграть. Вопрос в том, как жить с террором. Я помню, как был в Англии в разгар террористических атак Ирландской армии — это был кошмар, все время какие-то взрывы, все время кого-то убивали. Так Англия жила очень долго. Я был как раз во время очередной вспышки такого террора. Я был тогда членом Букеровской премии, нас послали в какое-то здание, где должно было совещаться жюри, и лифтер пересчитал всех, кто вошел в лифт. Я человек занудный, поэтому не мог успокоиться, пока не спросил у одного из основателей Букеровской премии лорда Майкла, зачем нас пересчитали? Он сказал: чтобы знать, сколько гробов нужно будет, если лифт взорвется. Я до сих пор не знаю, шутка это была мрачная, черная или нет. Вот так жили англичане в течение многих лет, пока не завершился этот этап террора и Ирландия так или иначе пришла к более мирной ситуации.

Как вы считаете, как жить с террором, как нам быть, когда мы читаем эти чудовищные события, когда пожилому священнику перерезают горло? Чисто психологически, как быть в этой ситуации?

Алексей Цветков: Во-первых, я вам приведу более яркий пример — это Израиль, который живет уже очень много лет с террором. Причем я помню времена второй интифады, это было похуже, чем в Англии. Я могу отвечать за себя, я понимаю, что есть небольшая вероятность погибнуть от террора мне или моим близким есть, но это вполне переносимо. Надо с ним бороться, понимая, что всегда что-то просочится, по крайней мере, не допускать очень крупных инцидентов. Но я знаю, что большинство людей, к сожалению, не потому, что я такой умный, просто они иначе устроены, легче впадают в панику, я не знаю, честно говоря, как этим людям жить с террором.

Александр Генис: Знаете, раз уж вы вспомнили про Израиль, скажу, что я недавно был в Иерусалиме. Это было опять-таки, как часто в Израиле, очень тяжелое время, меня не пустили в церковь Гроба Господня, потому что там рядом был как раз террористический акт. Тем не менее, гуляю я по еврейской части Иерусалима и вижу молл, построенный с невероятной роскошью: самые дорогие магазины мира всюду стоит современная скульптура, мрамор, стекло, все очень красиво. Откуда деньги, спрашиваю, чтобы это построить? Мне говорят: ну как же, люди вкладывают миллиарды долларов в Иерусалим, потому что это навсегда, это очень выгодно. Я подумал: в Донецк сейчас кто-нибудь стал бы вкладывать деньги? Вот этот пример может быть и показывает, как жить с террором изо дня в день. Мы же живем, зная, что умрем.

Алексей, все наши беседы мы завершаем стихами. Во-первых, стихи иногда говорят больше, чем их автор. Во-вторых, стихи — это концентрированная информация, как бульонный кубик. А в-третьих, я понимаю, что стихи редко пишутся по актуальному поводу, бывают стихи в тему. Есть ли у вас стихи, которые соответствуют теме нашей передачи?

Алексей Цветков: Видимо, более-менее близкое есть. Называется «Контакт».

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пальмовая подозрительна поросль

юркие тени тюрбан борода

там анониму поправили пояс

смертника в потной руке провода

жизни похоже и не было кроме

мига пройти роковую тропу

вот поднимается облако крови

плотью парной поливая толпу

долго висеть в этом воздухе взятом

тенью взаймы неживому нельзя

что я спою остывающим взглядом

тем кто в пыли собирает глаза

что завещать очевидцам увечным

с гайкой в уме или в глотке иглой

зайчики в крестике что моя речь им

сказка кастрата о бабе былой

мечутся в неводе люди вы люди

слюбимся-слипнемся шарики ртути

правда не ложь но тогда это чьи же

жабры и лопасти в ромбе кривом

близко на бреющем нужно ли ниже

ангел с культей и багровым крылом

в небе ни голода больше ни жажды

божья ночлежка любому бомжу

разве не я уже умер однажды

но никому из живых не скажу

койки рядком в перспективу как были

в душ бы с утра но ни тела ни пыли

жизнь теорема итог ее факт

бей электричество

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