New season of Ukrainian reforms

Vitaly Portnikov: Where Ukrainian reforms are slipping, it can be said that there is a public request for those reforms that are often called unpopular in the country, and who should still be the reform engine? In our studio - the head of the law of the coalition of public organizations of Ukraine “Resuscitation package of reforms” Vadim MiC and Leonid Antonenko , a member of the Board of the Association of Lawyers of Ukraine, the head of the Commission for the Property of the Kyiv City Council.

What else needs to be reformed so that Ukraine really becomes like those European states with which it strives?

We created a number of anti -corruption institutions, in particular, the National Anti -Corruption Bureau

Vadim Miysky: Anti -corruption reform began with us: a number of anti -corruption institutions were created, in particular, the National Anti -Corruption Bureau (NABU), which has differently from the prosecutor’s office of the investigation relative to the highest official corruption. A specialized anti -corruption prosecutor’s office was created, which will carry out procedural supervision of the investigation process and prepare all materials for the court. In the end, one way or another, all anti -corruption cases that NABU investigate and the specialized anti -corruption prosecutor’s office investigate and fall into the courts.

Contrary to the fact that in Ukraine there were several attempts to reform the courts and even passed changes in the constitution, they still do not respond to the request of society. One of the ideas that the public sector is very actively promoting is the creation of specialized anti -corruption courts, that is, one court of first instance and a separate chamber in the Supreme Court of Ukraine, which will conduct these cases, the NABU investigated and a specialized anti -corruption prosecutor's office.

Changes in the Constitution in terms of justice that were introduced in the summer allow such a court. The only thing that there is no deadline, so the quality of new anti -corruption institutions will lag behind the expectations until these courts appear. If we achieve the adoption of the law this fall, we will have time together with the formation of the new Supreme Court, provided for by changes in the Constitution, to form a separate anti -corruption chamber in it - this, of course, will be success. But here it all depends on the grip of public activists and on the economic arguments that the Western partners of Ukraine can help us in this matter.

When you need to create the appearance that something is being done, people create new organs

Leonid Antonenko: The creation of a new court and the new prosecutor's office does not seem to me reforms. This can be called an imitation of reform: when it is necessary to create the appearance that something is being done, people create new organs.

Reform is what people are talking about, what changes the classical perception of things. People say that the head of Ukrposhta or “Ukrainian Railways” pay a large salary - this is the real one, and, I think, the right reform. When people say that tariffs are increasing, this is reform, it bothers everyone.

The government makes complex decisions, he needs to look at how justified. In my opinion, these are extremely unpopular things that international creditors have been demanding from us for a long time, and the government is gaining courage to promote them.

Judicial reform, the creation of the Supreme Court, the restructuring of its status is not a reform. Reform is a statement that we can fill the Supreme Court with new personnel - let's see if we can do it. Reform, this is apparently electronic declaration, if it works. While we see that it is slipping.

Vadim Misci: From today, electronic declaration has fully earned.

The creation of the Supreme Court, the restructuring of its status is not a reform. Reform is a statement that we can fill the Supreme Court with new personnel

Leonid Antonenko: After several European ambassadors made the relevant statements, accompanied by a rather unpleasant scene of the reporting of the Prime Minister of the relevant agency to prevent corruption ... This was a rather awkward scene when the head of the body using independent status and guarantees from administrative dismissal, he hears two things: firstly, that she is to blame for the fail Secondly, that on the 1st of it it can be fired if it does not correct. According to the law, it could be dismissed on the basis of a court decision that established a crime or other offenses as part of its actions, but not by a decision of the head of government.

Such things that accompany the movement in the right direction are very upset me.

Vadim Misci: Let me disagree with you to increase the salary to the head of the Ukrainian Railways: I do not consider this reform. No matter how many observational councils around the “Ukrainian railways” are built, there are no more convenient trains, this cannot be called reform. I am now in Kyiv, but in general I live in Chernivtsi: 400 kilometers - go 14 hours. I will feel that this is a reform when it will be easier for me to get.

Leonid Antonenko: The problems that exist in a particular industry can be listed for a very long time. But you can pose a question: what used to be a chicken or an egg? So far, natural monopolists, large state corporations were led by people who received ten thousand hryvnias of salary, it was quite clear what these people were truly busy there, and no one hurt anyone to deal with these problems. In order for people to get worried about the affairs and solving problems in these companies, they need to be motivated.

Correct motivation in the civil service is already half the work done

Correct motivation in the civil service is already half the business. When the government headed Mr. Yatsenyuk and began by adopted the budget law, which he significantly cut off the salary of civil servants, and made a correction to the law on shipping, significantly lowering the salary of the judges, it was clear to me how this would end - the failure that we see with our own eyes.

Vitaly Portnikov: It seems to me that there is a public request for a decrease in salaries. Isn't it?

Leonid Antonenko: The democratic process does not always, unfortunately, have a result of improving the quality of people's service on “Ukrainian railways”. Let's give people time, and I am sure that we will see the fruits of the reform launched by the Ministry of Economics on the competitive selection of the leaders of large state enterprises and to create motivations in order to gain the right people from the market. We will certainly see the fruits of these things in the specific figures of the financial indicators of these companies.

First, we must increase the efficiency of company management, improve their balance of their balance sheets and make such companies that are able to enter the international capital market and borrow funds there in order to receive what you are talking about.

In my opinion, reform is a change in motivation in the public service, creating such conditions that young guys go there for whom work in the state apparatus will not be prestigious because they can join the corruption machine, but by the fact that they can join the construction of Ukraine as an independent state.

It is necessary to create new anti -corruption institutions with well -paid work, and not being under political control in the GPU or SBU

Vadim Misci: It is necessary to create new anti -corruption institutions with well -paid work, and not their finding under political control as part of the GPU or SBU.

Leonid Antonenko: These new bodies are created on the basis of a new approach to wages. Here is a new patrol police: they started by the fact that two and a half times they raised the average salary of the people who work there to change the motivation system and give a signal to normal people that they can go to the public service and do their job as they do in any other place.

Vitaly Portnikov: If you can make a corruption way many times more than these high salaries, then do high salaries save the situation?

Vadim Misci: An electronic declaration will start ... By the way, it is very interesting: it will be possible to earn money, but it is more difficult to spend, or you have to spend in very small portions, go to a restaurant or something else that is not very attractive. Or save in offshore and once get caught ...

Leonid Antonenko: I myself wrote this law on electronic declaration and I know very well how to get around it. It seems to the layman that a family member is a mother, father, wife, but, looking into this law, he will find out that if your father is not registered with you at the same address, then he is not a family member. And there is a reason. Imagine a situation when your father has divorced his mother a long time ago, God knows where, and you don’t even know about his whereabouts, you don’t know whether you must declare his income for the corresponding year and how you can receive this information if he refuses to provide you with ... thereby we come to the fact that if people do not live at the same address or even do not even spell out, but they are not no longer spelled out, but they are not there anymore. Family members.

Leonid Antonenko

Vadim Misci: There are still close faces there. Fortunately, there are electronic registers that will help supplement this declaration. And if you find that a daughter actually lives there, she is already an adult, but has common interests, common obligations with your father, collect the evidence base ...

I myself wrote a law on electronic declaration and I know very well how to get around it

Leonid Antonenko: You can prove in a country such as Sweden or Switzerland, and in such a country as Ukraine, there is a high probability that these new institutions will be used in order to punish.

Vitaly Portnikov: By the way, we came to what Vadim was talking about at the beginning: if there are no relevant judicial institutions, then, of course, there will be no electronic declaration. You can calmly sue, give money there, and then the court will calmly say: of course, this is your daughter, whom you have never seen.

Leonid Antonenko: And here we again return to where we started. If the judge receives a salary of ten thousand hryvnias and we believe that this is normal, that such a judge will judge who lives with whom and how much earns, then I really doubt it. The reform is aimed at creating the right incentives for attracting to state companies, to the courts, to the public service of people who can find decent competitive conditions in another place in order to lure them from there and force them to work for the state - this is the number one reform, we must talk about this. When such people appear there, you can already bring our imperfect laws to the right state with the help of their zeal and desire.

You will not solve anything with salaries

Vadim Misci: You won’t solve anything with salaries. Give large salaries to the prosecutors who are now working in the Prosecutor General’s Office, and you will receive the same quality for much more money. An element of an open contest, some kind of Rubikon, a sieve, through which everyone can pass, including people from the outside of the system, to take places in the new organ, is a very good option, which, incidentally, was well successful with the police and very poorly successfully with the prosecutor's office. The law adopted in 2014 provided for the same sieve for all prosecutors.

Leonid Antonenko: The patrol service is people who walk along the street, receive their 12 thousand hryvnias and do not make any significant decisions, except to restore the bully. Speaking about the prosecutor’s office, we are talking about people who are endowed with the authorities to deprive someone of freedom, and these people have the opportunity to make proposals from those who will concern such decisions, measured by hundreds of thousands of dollars. Of course, speaking of these people, we must think about what motivation they work there.

Vadim Misci: Last year, competitions were held at local prosecutors. 84% of the heads of local prosecutors are people who already have experience in the prosecutor's office. I believe that this is a complete failure of the reform.

Vitaly Portnikov: The head of the anti -corruption bureau has vast experience in the prosecutor's office - about 20 years.

Vadim Misci: He came in an open competition.

Vitaly Portnikov: Nevertheless, you can’t take people out of nowhere.

After the reform of the police units alone in large cities, confidence in the police increased from 10 to 55%

Vadim Misci: The moment of update is important and the opportunity to go in an open competition. Here we saw that the leadership of the General Prosecutor's Office did not have such a desire, respectively, this all spread to places, and the reform did not pass.

After the reform of the Police patrol units alone in large cities, confidence in the police increased from 10 to 55%. In the prosecutor’s office, after the so-called reform ... In fact, the reform could have occurred, but did not occur due to the fact that it was poorly done.

Leonid Antonenko: Let's look at an alternative option. Where can a person who went to the patrol service? How much money can he get there, especially in a small provincial city? 12-15 thousand that they are paying now-this is a good salary by current standards, respectively, these people came there. People who are designed to make responsible decisions in the prosecutor’s office in the private sector could earn thousands of dollars, using their efforts, energy and knowledge. They are all - professional lawyers with extensive experience, with a great understanding of how this system is arranged. They are in demand, they can find a salary of several thousand dollars in the private sector. In order to create the correct motivation and pull out other people from this private sector without experience in the prosecutor's office and not yet spoiled, we must talk about completely different money. Until this happens, nothing will change. As soon as Abromavichyus at the Ministry of Economics raised the question by the edge, as soon as the head of Ukrposhta began to pay 350 thousand hryvnias per month, I realized that reforms began.

The creation of public broadcasting is a reform

Vitaly Portnikov: Vadim and I are members of the supervisory board of Ukrainian public broadcasting. Vadim sent me a collective letter, which was prepared as a lawyer (it was addressed to the Ministry of Finance) regarding the fact that there is no financing of public broadcasting at the level necessary for it to work. The creation of public broadcasting is a reform, and no money, as Dmitry Medvedev says, no, "but you hold on." The question arises, but is it possible?

Vadim Misci: An additional 400 million hryvnias were allocated, which is very pleasant.

Vitaly Portnikov: Not every industry has a pettai.

Leonid Antonenko: In order for public television to start working as a public independent television, a source of financing, protected from the decision of the minister, must be guaranteed. If the source of financing depends on who has gone, with whom he agreed, with which the minister stood up with today, then it is not independent.

Fortunately, it is possible to convince the authorities that the newly created institutions that are already reformed should be well financed, otherwise the trust in these reforms will immediately come to naught

Vadim MiC: we will also work with this, for this there is an observation council.

Vitaly Portnikov: There are public structures for this. This is just an indicative example of what is happening. The Ministry of Finance did not reduce this money from evil, it really does not have money to cover the budget sphere.

Vadim Misci: Fortunately, it is possible to convince the authorities that the newly created institutions that are already reformed should be well financed, otherwise the trust in these reforms will immediately come to naught. There is public broadcasting, the observation will be created, corporate partization is coming to an end, it will already be possible to give money, waiting for the result - this will no longer be just eating, as in the previous 25 years.

Vadim Mizh

Leonid Antonenko: I hope you will be as demanding of your work in this organization as the new head of Ukrposhta. You demand the results from him the next day - so that the train to Chernivtsi does not walk in 14, but in 4 hours.

Vitaly Portnikov: Do we need organizations such as Ukrposhta or State Railways, if we have seen many times that in the conditions of such a total economic crisis there was a privatization of giants? By the way, in the UK, they thought about the privatization of post offices, privatized railways. I want to remind you that the new mail that has just created in the country, a private organization is already perceived by many as a real mail.

Leonid Antonenko: You can privatize the organization if it promises to become profitable. Since it now chronically receives a subsidation from the budget, it exists as a universal postal organization. Это означает, что в каждом населенном пункте есть ее отделения, которые будут существовать, даже если они глубоко убыточные. Пока это убыточная организация, ее приватизация ни для кого не будет представлять интереса. Она, по сути дела, сейчас выполняет государственную функцию — обеспечение почтовой связью каждого человека нашей страны.

Виталий Портников: Есть разочарование в реформах?

Вадим Миский: Я регулярно слежу за социологическими исследованиями, которые делает Фонд «Демократические инициативы», Ирина Бекешкина . На протяжении последних трех лет сохраняется одинаковый процент людей, которые категорически разочарованы в реформах, - 5-7%, и людей, которые в принципе не верят в реформы, еще примерно 25%. Остальные либо верят твердо, либо с небольшими сомнениями, либо в принципе сомневаются, но небольшой лучик у них есть - таких в Украине две трети. То есть, в принципе, тотального разочарования нет, у власти есть еще какой-то небольшой лимит времени, чтобы ускориться и показать реальный результат.

Приватизировать организацию можно, если она обещает стать прибыльной

Леонид Антоненко: Мне кажется, что каждый, кто разочарован в реформах, может прийти на госслужбу и начать что-то менять. Мой пример в этом смысле весьма показателен. Я занимался другим делом, был юристом в международной юридической фирме, потом оставил работу (относил себя к числу разочарованных людей) и пошел в Национальный банк, возглавил там департамент и сделал реформу прозрачности собственности банков, провел люстрацию банкиров. Своими усилиями за восемь месяцев я полностью изменил ландшафт. Год назад вы могли заглянуть на сайт Нацбанка и обнаружить, что каждый третий банк принадлежит неустановленному лицу.

Виталий Портников: Потому что каждый предприниматель хотел иметь карманный банк для своих потребностей.

Если люди не будут воспринимать создание страны как свое личное дело, то этот проект у нас никогда не получится

Леонид Антоненко: Сейчас в Киевской раде мы работаем над небольшими реформами на уровне города Киева. Этой работой, в отличие от работы в Нацбанке, я занимаюсь полностью на общественных началах, находя время для того, чтобы продвигать какие-то реформы.

Вы правильно говорите, что человек не может все оставить и пойти чем-то заниматься, но государство иначе не строится. Когда-то для того, чтобы построить Израиль как государство, люди тоже от многого отказались, полностью посвятили себя построению страны. Если люди не будут воспринимать создание страны как свое личное дело и свою личную ответственность, то этот проект у нас никогда не получится.

Виталий Портников: Вы сказали, что у власти есть еще время. Мне странно, когда говорят: у власти закончится время, как будто это надо власти. Это же надо не власти, а именно людям. Власть всегда может уехать в Ниццу или в Сингапур, а люди останутся.

На протяжении последних трех лет сохраняется одинаковый процент людей, которые категорически разочарованы в реформах - 5-7%

Вадим Миский: Но решения все равно принимает власть. Сколько бы ты ни агитировал власть начинать электронное декларирование, она в любой момент может сказать: нет, мы начинаем не сегодня, а через 15 лет.

Леонид Антоненко: Мы в Киевской раде обратили внимание на то, что власти были не очень заинтересованы в запуске реформы назначения руководителей коммунальных предприятий. При этом каждый был не заинтересован по-своему, в силу своих собственных обстоятельств. Тем не менее, под общественным нажимом той же самой организации «Реанимационный пакет реформ», которая продвигала эту реформу у нас в Киевской раде, были приняты соответствующие изменения в законодательство. Мне кажется, если бы не было этого нажима, этот документ никогда не был бы принят. В этом смысле ощутимы изменения, которые произошли после Майдана.

Виталий Портников: Вот общество разочаровалось в реформах, и что происходит дальше? Это план Б, который надо проговаривать.

У нас в Украине каждые десять лет происходят социальные потрясения, революции

Вадим Миский: По-моему, очевидно, что у нас в Украине каждые десять лет происходят социальные потрясения, революции. Конечно, для этого нужно, чтобы очень надоело… Это вполне может произойти и еще раз, никто от этого не застрахован. Мне кажется, что через два-три года вероятность таких событий невелика. У украинского общества есть 10-летний кармический срок. Если уже сильно назревает социальное недовольство, то получается взрыв.

Виталий Портников: Мне всегда казалось, что взрыв 2004 года был взрывом на фоне одной из лучших экономических ситуаций, которая была в стране до и после этого. Выходили рассерженные горожане, которые никогда не жили лучше, чем в 2004 году, и потом лучше не жили. А в 2014 году тоже выходили люди, которые после этого жили только хуже, чем в 2013 году. Я не называю это социальным взрывом, мое наблюдение: люди после этого всегда жили хуже, чем до того, как они вышли. Мне кажется, это связано с отсутствием диалога. Вопрос в том, можем ли мы создать власть, способную к общественному диалогу.

Вадим Миский: По-моему, это последствия каждой революции — обязательное ухудшение качества жизни в краткосрочной перспективе. Но в среднесрочной и долгосрочной перспективе должно быть совсем по-другому - в связи с антикоррупционными мероприятиями, в том числе, с созданием системы предотвращения коррупции, в связи с тем, что новые люди готовы к диалогу.

Кстати, это одна из фундаментальных вещей. Строить диалог с Януковичем было практически невозможно.

Вопрос в том, можем ли мы создать власть, способную к общественному диалогу

Виталий Портников: Неужели после этих двух событий вы действительно считаете, что может появиться власть, которая не учтет этого печального опыта?

Вадим Миский: Конечно, может появиться. Политическая память в Украине короткая, избиратель забывает все за несколько месяцев, власть, может быть, чуть дольше — за несколько лет. Я думаю, никто не застрахован именно потому, что демократия — это та вещь, которую нужно постоянно, каждый день строить заново. Не может власть один раз и навеки стать восприимчивой и хорошей. В любом случае нужно постоянно пытаться пробить стену нежелания отвечать.

Леонид Антоненко: Если вы посмотрите на страны бывшего Советского Союза, исключая страны Балтии, на такой показатель, как ВВП на душу населения, то обнаружите, что чем демократичнее страна (Молдавия, Украина и Киргизия), тем ниже там уровень жизни, а чем меньше в стране демократии (Азербайджан, Казахстан, Россия, Белоруссия и Таджикистан), тем выше ВВП на душу населения. В том же Узбекистане за время правления Каримова численность населения вдвое увеличилась, в то время как на Украине чуть ли не на эту же цифру уменьшилась. Меня эта закономерность всегда потрясала до глубины души, я не знал, какие из нее нужно сделать выводы.

Виталий Портников: А теперь знаете?

Леонид Антоненко: И теперь не знаю, потому что вывод, который напрашивается: той общности людей, которую мы когда-то называли советским народом (да и сейчас часто приходится ее называть так же), демократия на пользу не идет.

Виталий Портников: А мне кажется, что есть такая проблема, как незавершенность реформ. Те три страны, которые вы назвали - Украина, Молдова и Кыргызстан - это страны с незавершенными реформами.

Чем демократичнее страна, тем ниже там уровень жизни, а чем меньше в стране демократии, тем выше ВВП на душу населения

Леонид Антоненко: А кто двигал эти реформы, какой социальный слой был автором запроса?

Виталий Портников: Был креативный класс, был средний класс. This is a long conversation.

Леонид Антоненко: Автором запроса на реформы являются международные кредиторы Украины.

Виталий Портников: Кстати, в Молдове и Кыргызстане было очень похоже.

Леонид Антоненко: Внутреннего класса, способного привести в парламент людей, которые требовали бы настоящих реформ, а не их имитации, нет. Все, что происходит в стране нормального, происходит только потому, что на нее давит МВФ, давит ЕС, давят американцы.

Виталий Портников: На переходном этапе это, безусловно, демократия, ведь план Маршалла тоже был представлен странам Западной Европы из-за океана, и мы знаем результат. Все-таки завершенность реформ — это главное условие развития. Когда мы имеем, с одной стороны, страны с незавершенными реформами, а с другой - страны с завершенными автократиями, то мы видим результаты, о которых вы говорили.