Ether and propaganda

How is the Russian television channel different from the pro -Russian?

Vitaly Portnikov: The Ukrainian information space after the Maidan and the War - how has it changed, what role does the Russian factor play today and does it play at all? Our guest is the chairman of the National Council on Television and Radio Broadcasting of Ukraine Yuri Artemenko .

Obviously, it is the National Council on Television and Radio Broadcasting that is the authority that allows or does not allow television and radio stations to broadcast in Ukraine.

The president did not call and did not tell me: close the Russian channels

Yuri Artemenko: Colleagues and friends often ask me: who gives you instructions? I am appointed by the president’s quota. We have such a structure - so that there is parity, four people are appointed from the president and four are elected by parliament. I put my hand on my heart: the president did not call and did not tell me - close the Russian channels. The composition of the national council is unique, it has representatives from the opposition forces, from the ruling coalition, but there are no pure politicians - everyone worked in the media, and this is probably the first such composition. Someone headed the industrial committee, someone worked on the channel-as a journalist or as a lawyer.

Starting, we said that we were still sitting on the other side of the table from the Presidium, and now we are sitting on this side, that is, by the faith of the fate of the television channels, so we know how it works, and make decisions based on our vision based on the law. But there is such a thing as "discretionary powers of the members of the Council": I have the right to express my personal opinion without violating the law, and, based on it, make a decision.

Vitaliy Portnikov: Is it possible to say that now in the Ukrainian air there are no Russian television broadcasters at all, with the exception of the Rain television channel?

Yuri Artemenko: There is a rain TV channel, there are other television channels, I'm just not ready to call them now.

Many Russian television channels were excluded from the list of adapted channels, because Russian channels are not included in the European Convention on Border Broadcasting

Another question is that many Russian television channels were excluded from the list of adapted channels, because Russian channels are not included in the European Convention on Border Broadcasting. The vast majority of European countries at one time gathered and signed under the European Convention on Border Broadcasting, which implies certain rules for all channels. Ukraine signed it and ratified it in the Verkhovna Rada, and Russia signed, but has not ratified and is not a participant.

What does this mean for Russian channels? For them, there is another procedure for licensing and punishment than for other channels. For example, if European channels violate some of our laws, then we must first turn to the channel itself: you have violated such and such a law. The channel answers us. If this does not satisfy us, then we turn to the regulator of the country where this channel is registered: take measures. And the regulator deprives him of a license, makes a fine, praises or scolds, and so on.

Russia did not sign this convention, and we have a direct right to take immediate measures. We have only one punishment - the exclusion of the channel from the air, because the fine is impossible here: it is not in our country. Recently, we have banned 77 Russian satellite television channels in Ukraine. I do not take the first reasons that arose in 2014 when there was a lie when they said: “here they crucified the boy” or “here, look, thousands of people are striking on the street”, and you look out the window - two people, or vice versa: two people went out into the Maidan, and you look out the window - costs a million. Therefore, due to lies, due to propaganda, due to inciting passions, the leading channels of Russia were excluded from this list: Life News, Russia Today, Russia-1.

The second wave was when we began to look directly at the legislation. Most of the channels are excluded for two reasons. First - they violate the laws. We have a list of channels prohibited for showing due to the fact that they spoke poorly about Ukraine, spoke insulting things for it, called for its separation, denied the annexation of Crimea.

Recently, we have banned 77 Russian satellite television channels for the show in Ukraine

And the second, sufficiently minor violation: according to the law, there should not be advertising inserts on the air of Russian channels. This is a rule for those countries that have not signed the European Convention. We ask for the TV channel: please cut off the advertisement and translate. Russian channels do not fulfill this, and we exclude them.

And the third reason is simply amazing. Well, you exclude Life News and Russia Today - we agree with you, they lie, deceive, work for a certain category of people ... But why did you ban the Russian Multimania Channel? There are many such examples of niche channels ...

Vitaly Portnikov: Putin starred in the cartoon?

Yuri Artemenko: For example, there is a “weather forecast” program, and show a map of Russia with the Crimea on or a map of Ukraine with cut off Crimea. We believe that this, to put it mildly, is wrong, and on the basis of this we close the channels.

Not a single decision on the ban on Russian channels was made on the direction of the prime minister, president or due to the fact that I want to somehow join the founders of some Russian channel. Guys, work, but do not violate the laws of Ukraine. You also exclude our channels if they violate the laws of Russia. But, unfortunately, it so happened that only one Ukrainian channel operates in Russia.

There is a list of channels prohibited for showing due to the fact that they spoke poorly about Ukraine, called for its separation, denied the annexation of Crimea

And the international version of Inter , cleared of advertising ... In fact, it is a Ukrainian channel, and in fact - international. This is the so -called channel where they teach English. I once raised the question that this is wrong. If we are colleagues, neighbors, even if we discard all the military operations that are ...

In Azerbaijan, for example, the principle of parity is valid. I talked with my colleagues, with the Azerbaijani regulator, and I say: we have a public channel-a former UT-1, we want it to be shown in Azerbaijan, because many Ukrainians live there. They said: there are no questions, we will let him into cable networks, and you show our channel, because many Azerbaijanis live in Ukraine. We agreed with our cable operator, they are with our own, and this is normal, honest. Why do we have a lot of Russian channels, and we have no right to show Ukrainian channels, not political, not Life News, not shy, even entertaining? Road Closed.

Vitaly Portnikov: Many leading Russian television channels with international versions were registered not in Russia, but in various European countries, where, thus, they fell under the European Convention that you referred to.

Yuri Artemenko: There are few of them - if I am not mistaken, four or five channels. But let's look not only on fictitious registration, because tomorrow in order to somehow get here, any channel will receive a license of a European country. Therefore, here we act quite clearly: we turn to the regulator and say that in fact this is a Russian channel. The fact that he is registered somewhere else does not change his essence. For example, the first Baltic Canal is essentially the first channel, just the name is the Baltic. We do not mind, let him broadcast in Latvia if the regulator accepts it, but we do not accept such maneuvers.

Vitaliy Portnikov: In Latvia, they are not very afraid of the first Baltic Canal, although there is also the information, to put it mildly, far from the idea of statehood and the interests that the Latvian government and the main part of society have.

Three years ago, in a terrible dream, I could not imagine that we would have such a situation in relations between Russians and Ukrainians

Yuri Artemenko: I did not want to foresee something bad, but ... Three years ago, in a terrible dream, I could not imagine that we would have such a situation in the relationship between Russians and Ukrainians, between Russian and Ukrainian media, that there would be such a kind of war, such a untruth ...

Vitaly Portnikov: Was there no such propaganda from Russian television channels before?

Yuri Artemenko: It was not, because such propaganda arose during the period of blood, shooting, understanding that Ukraine is going on some kind of its own way, unknown to Russia. That is, it existed, but it was softer, more manipulative, more similar to the truth and not so warlike.

Vitaly Portnikov: When there were decisions on Russian television channels and disagreements in the National Council, your colleagues said: no, let's leave them alone, because it is a violation of freedom of speech?

Yuri Artemenko: Not once. Here you mentioned the "rain", which is an opposition channel in Russia. I believe that this is a soft opposition channel, but there is no hard: both the Echo of Moscow, and so on - I do not think that these are opposition channels in our understanding. Recently, we caught the rain channel on violation, and no matter how I love it, now we are sending them a letter: a respected channel, delete advertising, give us a guarantee that a person who is included in the lists of prohibited for the show will not be repeatedly shown on the air of your channel. If they do not do this, then I will vote with two hands with the exception of the Rain channel.

Vitaliy Portnikov: The Rain channel has no weather forecast, no Russian map?

Yuri Artemenko: Our monitoring does not fix this.

Russia has one map of the world, and we have another, and these two cards are incompatible

Vitaly Portnikov: Russia and I begin to live in completely different spaces. Russia has one map of the world, and we have another, and these two cards are incompatible.

Yuri Artemenko: Our card is more complicated.

Vitaly Portnikov: This is true. But Russia doesn’t care which card ... As I understand it, our Russian colleagues live with a different idea of geography and politics.

Yuri Artemenko: I do not want to offend my Russian colleagues. The fact that they are probably doing part of the political system that they have created in them. I want time to take and we honestly look into each other's eyes. I am not ashamed of my decision on the ban on Russian channels, because it is based on the laws of Ukraine, on the rules of our country. You want to broadcast in this country - observe its laws.

Yuri Artemenko

We already have no disagreement, we have judicial claims, but they relate to technical details, the timeliness of making a decision or conducting some kind of examination. But, I think, Russian colleagues understand that it is impossible to enter the existing content into the territory of Ukraine.

Vitaly Portnikov: There are Russian channels, and there are, relatively speaking, pro -Russian - of course, this is an evaluative judgment. Nevertheless, the public constantly makes claims that the channels, which, in fact, are pro -Russian, continue broadcasting. Moreover, they are more successful and popular than many of their competitors who are closer to the public idea of the Ukrainian point of view.

Inter television channel - recently there was a story related to questions that were to the national council, there were pickets, there was either arson or self -pole. Everyone asks the question: how in Ukraine there is a canal belonging to the famous oligarch Dmitry Firtash, who always had interests in Russia, and Sergey Levochkin, the former head of the Presidential Administration of Ukraine. This channel does not hide its political position. Relatively speaking, why prohibit the first channel when there is Inter?

I think Russian colleagues understand that with existing content on the territory of Ukraine cannot be entered

Yuri Artemenko: Whatever I do, some of the population will still be unhappy. If we see violations on some Russian channels, then we block them, and a significant part of the people says: you have deprived us of high-quality Russian television, you deprived us of Russian cartoons. Somewhere I understand them: Russian television is better than Ukrainian, because a lot of money is spent on the production of content there.

If I do not close the channel, then the other part of the population says: you are on Putin’s salary, you sold to Putin ... If you do not know what to do, act according to the law.

Inter has no violations of the law, but there is a manipulation. For example, all television channels show some concerts and other events dedicated to Independence Day. Most television channels make programs to be proud that you are a Ukrainian, that you live in this country, cry, rejoice, admire ... And the Inter TV channel showed a concert that there is no legitimate pickup, but it is nostalgic: how good it was, and how bad it is now.

When they talk about outstanding figures of Ukraine ... For example, Taras Shevchenko is a legend of Ukraine, a national poet, a symbol of the country. And they say 90% of the time that he became so cool because he studied at St. Petersburg University. Or, talking about someone else, they say: how he talked well about Russia ...

Vitaly Portnikov: This is their view of the world.

Inter has no violations of the law, but there is a manipulation

Yuri Artemenko: This is a manipulation. We have a very long relationship with Inter, there were warnings ... Once we saw that our position in court is quite weak, and concluded a settlement agreement as a compromise. And the Inter channel was obliged to honestly lead the rules of politics, not to manipulate, not to kindle the war. But in the end, this manifests itself again and again.

I was asked: do you condemn the last arson of Inter? No normal person will support arson - this is a crime, it must be severely punished, no matter what camp the citizen committed. Provocation, self -control, intentionally, unintentionally - this must be proved. But I say frankly (and the managers of Inter said): guys, arson is a consequence, and the reason is that you do not feel people, do not feel social responsibility. And if you do not change this - people are different, God forbid, tomorrow there will be arson or murder, and you will not stop it. Yes, you will find those who set fire, put them in prison, shoot, hang them, but this will not change the essence itself. Therefore, stop: there is no censorship in this country, but feel your social responsibility.

Vitaly Portnikov: It is important to understand that if it is not your competence as a regulator, then there should be some other structures that will be engaged in information security.

Yuri Artemenko: Yes, this is the Ministry of the Interior, law enforcement agencies - depending on the articles. They say: close Inter due to the fact that they discovered the correspondence of his former editor-in-chief with one of the leaders of the terrorist "Donetsk Republic", in which they agree on how to tell. But this can be qualified as aiding terrorism. There are a lot of articles that do not concern a violation of the law on television.

There is no censorship in Ukraine, but feel your social responsibility

What is later released on the television screen is associated with internal censorship. My question is even no longer to the Security Service of Ukraine, not to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, but to journalists who work on this television channel. Today, the chief of Firtash, and tomorrow there will be Petrov, Sidorov, Klimenko, he will run away to Russia, run away to Vienna and so on ... You live on this earth, your children live here ... Now is the time that if you are outraged, go out on a strike or picket, stop your programs, you will support you all other television channels, the European community, the National Council, and they will help you. If you agree to such conditions, if you want to receive dungeons, instructions, and so on, then this is wrong.

Vitaly Portnikov: You mentioned Klimenko - this is the former Minister of Tax and fees under Yanukovych. Interestingly, he also owns a large holding, which has a radio station and a newspaper. After the Maidan, a large number of television channels entered the market that are associated with the past authorities, but it is impossible to prove this, although there is a law that requires the owner. Or no one hides the owner, as in the case of Klimenko.

Yuri Artemenko: Hide.

Vitaly Portnikov: Is the manager of the holding, in my opinion, is his wife?

Yuri Artemenko: Unofficially.

Vitaly Portnikov: The 112th television channel, which appeared during the Maidan, which was associated with the former Minister of Internal Affairs Zakharchenko ... "News 1" is a television channel, which, it seems, owns a deputy from the Party of Regions ...

Yuri Artemenko: Muraev, he recently left the party.

Vitaly Portnikov: Nevertheless, these are all people from one camp. They spend a lot of money on creating an information field - after all, this is also the fact of our Ukrainian information reality.

Yuri Artemenko: They spend crazy money! For example, financing of one of the television channels, which you named, we estimate at about 700 thousand dollars a month for salaries and equipment.

Vitaly Portnikov: How can Ukrainian public television manipulate such money?

We monitor all these channels, today there are no violations, but tomorrow there is a click, there is a command

Yuri Artemenko: This is impossible. Я считаю, что эти каналы качественные, потому что есть деньги, хорошая аппаратура, хорошие зарплаты. Это такая "пятая колонна". Я говорю журналистам всех этих каналов: ребята, сейчас вас используют, вы повышаете рейтинг, делаете классный продукт, вас даже нельзя заподозрить в каких-то нарушениях. Мы мониторим все эти каналы, сегодня нет нарушений, но завтра включается щелчок, идет команда… Реально же не Захарченко чем-то управляет. УСБ его вызовет и скажет: товарищ Захарченко, или ты едешь на Северный полюс, где тебя арестовывают за то, что ты разгонял мирную демонстрацию…

Виталий Портников: …или остаешься в своем кабинете в Госдуме .

Юрий Артеменко: Или ты остаешься кабинете, но, пожалуйста, надо… И дается такая команда. Наверное, творческий коллектив сопротивляется, их выгоняют, на их место находятся штрейкбрехеры, которые начинают нести вред, провокации и так далее. Сама психология слушателя и зрителя такова, что какое-то время он верит этому телеканалу – полгода, год, два, и на этой волне происходят страшные вещи.

Не хочу обижать журналистов, которые изначально были волками, а сейчас прикрылись овечьими шкурами

Так что эти каналы для меня – страшная "пятая колонна". Лучше "Интер" – он такой, как есть, мы знаем, мы видим, мы можем верить или не верить, но они не скрывают… А вот каналы… Не хочу обижать журналистов, которые изначально были волками, а сейчас прикрылись овечьими шкурами… Но это более страшно.

К сожалению, из-за отсутствия времени, из-за того, что у нас, с одной стороны, вроде бы военное состояние, а с другой, законы писались под мирное время, чтобы защитить демократию и свободу слова, мы мало что можем сделать. Тот же закон о медиасобственности – очень правильный закон: мы должны знать, кто является собственником, но он рассчитан на порядочных собственников. Нужно дать Национальному совету механизмы для того, чтобы найти реального собственника. Если Национальный совет не может дать ответ, кто является таким собственником, то дайте ему право приостанавливать действие этого канала или радио.

Виталий Портников: Тогда вы закроете половину телеканалов.

Юрий Артеменко: У нас буквально десяток таких медиа, по которым есть вопросы с отсутствием собственников. Вы назвали некоторые, я могу назвать некоторые в регионах. И то в регионах у нас как-то получается…

Один из недавних примеров: в Запорожье есть маленький телеканал "Алекс", и все знают, что его создал и контролирует директор "Мотор Сич" , герой Украины Вячеслав Богуслаев . Это предприятие, где делают двигатели, в том числе, для российских самолетов. Когда они пришли давать нам документы, у них в учредителях, в собственниках были какой-то Пупкин, Сидоров, Петров и так далее. Я говорю: ребята, над вами будет смеяться и Запорожье, и вся Украина, потому что все знают, кто контролирует и финансирует этот канал. Подумайте – мы не продлим вам лицензию.

Они ушли, потом пришли, и сейчас в списке лиц, которые имеют влияние на канал, появилась фамилия Богуслаева. Я не вижу в этом ничего страшного. Это такая прошлая "совковость", что лучше не показывать, и они не показывали. Те, кто сбежал, – Клименко, Захарченко – на чьих руках кровь, будут защищать себя тысячами прокладок, чтобы только мы их не нашли.

Так что таких каналов десяток, и 20, если учитывать региональные. Не будет ничего страшного, если дать нам полномочия приостанавливать их деятельность, а если они докажут свою невиновность через суд, тогда снова пускать их в эфир.

С одной стороны, есть необходимость соблюдать все критерии свободы слова, а с другой – думать об информационной безопасности страны

Виталий Портников: Это большая проблема: с одной стороны, есть необходимость соблюдать все критерии свободы слова, а с другой – думать об информационной безопасности страны.

Юрий Артеменко: В чем опасность? Почему я говорю, что надо строго наказать за поджог "Интера"? Потому что, если это не остановить, то завтра будут все остальные каналы… Вы правы, тут тонкая грань между свободой слова и цензурой, между тем, что у нас идет война, и тем, что мы должны развиваться. С чего начал, тем и закончу: хорошо, что в Национальном совете сидят не политики и не технократы, а медийщики, которые, наверное, берут груз на свое сердце, но мы всегда пытаемся найти тонкую грань, не перейти туда или обратно.

Виталий Портников: Но при этом вы все равно должны учитывать общественное мнение. Если вы не технари и не политики, то вы зависите от тех людей, которые ходят у вас под окнами.

Юрий Артеменко: Какое бы решение я ни принял, оно всегда будет на моей совести и оно всегда будет не устраивать одних или других. Часть активных людей ходят под окнами, но часть неактивных сидят и пишут нам, что они полностью не согласны с теми людьми, которые стоят на улице. Я не хочу вестись ни на улицу, ни на письма, я хочу принимать решения исходя из того, что мне не будет стыдно сказать о них своему сыну.