Underwater prisons

Why should dolphinaries prohibit?

Sergey Medvedev: Today we will talk about the topic that we have repeatedly addressed in our programs - about animals, about their rights, about how humanity will rebuild their relations with animals in the 21st century, in the next centuries after those centuries and even millennia of oppression and lack of rights of the animal world. We have repeatedly talked about zoos, and now it's time to talk about the oceanariums and dolphinaries, with whom, I think, many of you have encountered, whether it was a dolphinarium somewhere on the sea, on vacation or in some kind of shopping center.

Recently there was a scandal with the Primorsky Oceanarium, where many marine animals died due to poor content. But this is only a small part of what is happening. This was a team of Russian freedivers and film -domains made a film called “Born Free” - a film about marine animals who had a sad fate to become artists of dolphinaries and oceanariums, about whales, dolphins, sea lions and all others whom a person forces living in these small pools, in aquariums.

Recently there was a scandal with the Primorsky Oceanarium, where, due to poor content, many marine animals died

We invited the creators of this film - director Gayane Petrosyan and Tatyana Denisenko , associate professor of the Department of Biology of the Moscow Veterinary Academy named after Scriabin. Let's talk about what is happening behind the glass of dolphinaries and oceanariums. What was in the Primorsky Oceanarium - mass death of animals - is this a typical picture for such institutions?

Gayane Petrosyan: During the filming, when we came across many dolphinaries and oceanariums, I got the impression that the picture, unfortunately, was quite typical. Just in some cases, this becomes the property of publicity, but in some-no. Much more hidden than it becomes known. They wrote a lot about the Primorsky Oceanarium, since it was built for a long time, there were many scandals with its construction, with the plunder of money, these stories hit the media. But in fact, animals in dolphinaries are dying, there are a lot of animals that are illegal, a lot of stories with fake documents or, for example, animals die, and then catch others and contain under the same names. This happens everywhere, but only those who work there know about this.

Sergey Medvedev: What is the main problem with animals in dolphinaries and oceanariums? They don’t have a place there at all, can they not live in closed spaces?

Tatyana Denisenko: Yes, indeed, animals cannot live in such conditions. And this, unfortunately, happens not only in Russia, but in everything in the world. Marine mammals, especially whaling, swim per day at least 20 kilometers - this time. Second: sea water in composition and ecology is completely different in the wild than in dolphinaria, that is, we cannot create such sea water that is in the ocean or at sea. And this applies not only to the chemical composition. Microorganisms that live in this water, and solar radiation, present in the natural conditions of animal life, play a role here.

Many visitors come to the dolphinarium, they bring microorganisms dangerous for animals

All this is impossible to create in artificial conditions, especially in dolphinaries of the continental type, that is, those that are in no way connected with the sea. Even the best filters will not provide the purity of water that is at sea. A large number of visitors come to the dolphinarium, they bring various pathogenic microorganisms that are dangerous for these animals. In animals living at sea, completely different microflora and completely different living conditions, they get less sick, and animals living in dolphinaries are constantly sick.

If you talk with veterinary specialists from dolphinaries, they will quietly say that animals are constantly on antibiotics, various vitamins and additives. And of course, the water in the dolphinarium is chlorine, or some other disinfectants are added to it, which negatively affect the skin and mucous membranes of animals. In addition, the animal entering the dolphinarium is in a closed space.

Sergey Medvedev: I also heard that it is difficult for them to communicate: their high -frequency signals are reflected from the walls, the interference of waves is obtained, and the dolphins almost go crazy.

Tatyana Denisenko: Yes, it is. It’s the same as if we put a bucket on the head of a person, and he will constantly say something. Dolphins or killer whales feel the same when they are in a closed space. In order to perceive the picture of the world to the dolphin, he needs to be constantly eliminating, he has a specially adapted organ - Sonar for this. He cannot stop doing this. And then he constantly gets this sound and goes crazy.

Sergey Medvedev: animals live less in dolphinaries and oceanariums than in nature?

Tatyana Denisenko: It's hard to say. The biologists who are watching them say that in the will of the killer whales and beluga live much longer. Doctors in dolphinaria assured us that the Black Sea Afalin lives longer in captivity.

Happy Bunny: a wolf did not eat it, he lived in a zoo

Sergey Medvedev: When I did the air about zoos, supporters of the zoos very often said: look, animals live there longer! A happy bunny: a wolf did not eat it, he lived in a zoo ... But this is a matter of the quality of life. You can hang a person in a hammock and feed through tubes, and he will live a hundred years.

Gayane Petrosyan: We just found out this issue for the film, as we constantly heard from the employees of dolphinaries that dolphins and beluga are good there, and they live for a long time. We decided to check. There are such data, for example, by years, how many deaths in the dolphinaries in the world. We just took these databases over the past 20 years. The film has been about Belukh, and we brought the average number in belugas who died almost all dolphinaries. It turned out the average life of life - about 20 years. And in nature they live at least 40 years, up to 50.

Sergey Medvedev: Tell us how the film starred. Did you go to dolphinaries? Or did you shoot in the ocean, and in the open sea, and in the dolphinarium, compared the conditions?

Gayane Petrosyan: both. Initially, the task was - just to remove the sea, and then shoot in dolphinaries and show contrast. Then we did not even assume where it all went. When we were faced with the history of 18 belugas sold in the USA, we became interested in what was behind all this, why these belugas are there, who catch them, what will happen next with them. We began to plunge further and further into this question, meet people, find some documents, and find out about captures.

Sergey Medvedev: Have you tried to counteract this?

Gayane Petrosyan: In some situations - yes, there were even threats ...

Sergey Medvedev: Have you found some dolphinaries or oceanariums that you can say with a pure soul that animals are good there? Or this, in principle, cannot be, how can there be no good prison?

Gayane Petrosyan: Of course, they are all different. There are more pools, there are fewer, there is water, at least visually cleaner, but there are completely dirty and smelly in some mobile dolphinarium. This is the same difference as if a person is put in a small room in prison, or it will be a little larger, but he has been sitting there all his life. Is there a difference for him - these are three square meters or six square meters? He will steal the same circles, but never in life will come out of there.

Sergey Medvedev: How are animals in dolphinaries? There are probably also born in captivity?

Now they are trying to breed the Black Sea and Atlantic Afalin in captivity

Tatyana Denisenko: Now they are trying to breed the Black Sea and Atlantic Afalin in captivity. There were cases of animals in captivity, and they were even successfully nursed until a certain age. But a lot of newborn dolphins die because veterinary problems arise. Of course, the conditions in which these animals are born are very far from ideal. Dolphins themselves, up to the relationship of the male and the female, are completely different than in the will. We can say that this is a forced relationship. Animals in certain periods of their lives experience hormonal stress, they just have to multiply, because they hear the call of nature. Sometimes, when talking with specialists of dolphinaries, such closed information is clarified: they say that animals themselves do not want to give birth to these small children.

Sergey Medvedev: A kind of boycott ...

Tatyana Denisenko: They give birth, as they say, contrary to. Children are not always nursed for females themselves, they sometimes even refuse, and specialists have to do this.

Tatyana Denisenko

Sergey Medvedev: Employees who work there, I think, love animals, love their job-these are not all cynical businessmen who earn money on dolphins, on the human stream. How do they look at this situation? They do not understand that they actually work as overseers in prison?

Gayane Petrosyan: It depends on what a person is doing there. As a rule, among the bulk of people engaged in coaching work, I had to meet good people. It really shows that they sincerely love these animals, sacrifice on their own, time, health, money. If the animal is sick, a person may not sleep at night, be with him, and it is clear that this is sincere. Another question is why they stay there. Many of them deep down understand that something is wrong here. Everyone has some of their explanations. You can often hear: “If not me, then who”?

Sergey Medvedev: Yes, “people who do not like animals will come” ...

Gayane Petrosyan: Although, in my opinion, there is a certain share of cunning in front of oneself, because there are many other nuances. Many are leaving: I know people who have gone and are now trying to actively counteract the development of dolphinaries.

Dolphinaries are a profitable business

But a completely different picture is the administration and owners of dolphinaries. I will not talk about everyone, but in the bulk (of those whom I have met) these are cynical, cold, perfectly understanding what it is, and related to this simply as a variety of business. They don’t hide this, they say directly: it's just money.

Sergey Medvedev: Is this a profitable business?

Gayane Petrosyan: Yes. First of all, these are the show themselves, to which a lot of people come to, especially if the dolphinarium, tours in cities. Among other things, it is dolphin therapy, swimming with dolphins - it is expensive. People, especially the parents of sick children, are ready to lay out a lot of money for this.

Sergey Medvedev: Does this really help?

Tatyana Denisenko: Doctors say that this helps children. But the fact is that not dolphin helps, but simply communication with the animal.

Sergey Medvedev: Contact Zoo ...

Tatyana Denisenko: The contact zoo is also a bad thing. For example, communication with a horse or a dog, with those animals that have been living with a person for a long time, free communication, when a captive animal communicates with a child, gives very good results. There are official articles that it is no worse than dolphin therapy.

From the point of view of a doctor, a microbiologist, swimming with dolphins is very dangerous for a child. When people lead their child to swim with a dolphin, they risk his health. Dolphin lives in a closed system into which microorganisms from the body of the animal itself fall. The animal defeats in the water, it breathes, secreting microorganisms from the respiratory tract. Since all the dolphins living in dolphinaries are not quite healthy, all this “beautiful” microflora gets to the child. In case of reducing immunity, all this can cause purulent skin infections, tonsillitis, bronchitis and other problems in the child, which we do not think about. After such a bathing, the child will get sick, and the mother will never think that this happened because of the dolphin, because the dolphin is happiness, the dolphin is joy, the dolphin is treatment.

Sergey Medvedev: Do dolphins really like to communicate with people? Or we cannot say "love", are they just making contact? We cannot judge whether they need it or not.

Swimming with dolphins is very dangerous for the child

Tatyana Denisenko: They are forced to do it. Dolphin is a flock animal, in nature they live in a family. When they find themselves in dolphinaries in such a limited circle of communication, when they have a couple of their cellmates and a coach, they, of course, want to communicate with a large number of individuals - it does not matter with people or with another animal. Dolphin is an intellectual animal, like a person, he cannot live without information. As we read the Internet, books, communicate, talk, so he needs to constantly receive new information. Where will he get it while in a closed room, with a three -time performance for the public? He is simply forced to communicate, therefore, of course, he will be glad to communicate with children or adults.

Sergey Medvedev: Dressure Dolphin is cruel? Are there any violent methods? Often you hear about the Durov’s dressing that bears are subjected to, tigers ... There is something like that with marine animals too?

Tatyana Denisenko: With whaling is not entirely true, they cannot be forced to do anything. The coach is spying that he loves to make an animal, and begins to play with him - of course, with reinforcements through food. In the morning, the animal is hungry, it is fed only during training and ideas, that is, it actually earns its food.

Sergey Medvedev: And the reflex is developed: you will play with a person, then they will feed.

Tatyana Denisenko: Motivation - hunger. But cruel measures, of course, are not used, because it is an intellectual animal, it will simply refuse to work.

Sergey Medvedev: That is, unlike earthly predators, they do not work through pain?

Dolphin is an intellectual animal, like a person, he cannot live without information

Tatyana Denisenko: No, a predator is a dominant animal, it sometimes tries to dominate a person, it is given to him by nature. Dolphin will not dominate, he will be a friend, a comrade -in -arms, he will play. It can never be punished.

Sergey Medvedev: That is, here a person operates, first of all, game behavior?

Tatyana Denisenko: That's right. And hunger ...

Sergey Medvedev: In India, dolphins were recently recognized as personal. Tatyana, tell us how developed the internal world of Dolphin, his communication? On what basis do several countries recognize them not complete owners of civil rights, but, at least, owners of personality?

Tatyana Denisenko: Physiologists say that it is very difficult to evaluate the intellect of a living being. There are several criteria for assessing intelligence, but not one of them is suitable for animals. For example, research was conducted on elephants, on chimpanzees, on dolphins, and at the moment it is recognized that these animals are really intelligent. Of the birds are intellectuals recognized by vulgar and some species of parrots.

It is difficult to say “reasonable” about animals, because we are used to the fact that we are dominated by a person, that only he has intelligence, but in fact, kit -like really have some special intellectual abilities. First of all, they have their own language, and now more and more scientists are proved. Rimus has traditions, they sing lullabies to their children. Each family has its own dialect, every family has its own songs, its own fairy tales for cubs, certain rituals. You might think: what are not people? But they are different. As if several civilizations live in parallel, in addition to human ... they have accepted this path of development. It is difficult to talk about the intellect of animals from the point of view of humans, but more and more scientists recognize this. When they find evaluation criteria, I think this will be recognized.

Sergey Medvedev: They have a language. I heard that this language has its own grammar, semantics. Does he somehow succumb to decryption?

Rimus has traditions, they sing to their children lullabies

Tatyana Denisenko: So far we are in the very initial stage of studying this language. Some scientists tried to do this, John Lily , for example, who wrote a book about this. But he had very stringent methods for determining the intellectual characteristics of dolphins. For example, dolphins were given LSD in order to study their intelligence. Now, of course, scientists do not use such methods. Nevertheless, they are only at the beginning of the journey and are afraid to say that dolphins have a language.

But sub -scientific research, when scientists begin to help, for example, musicians or philologists, already say that yes, indeed, this is a language. Deciphering the sound vibrations of the conversation of dolphins, we see that different words are really different. The study was conducted: the dolphins were placed in a soundproof room, but they did not see each other, and they could tell each other what needs to be done in order to get, for example, food.

Sergey Medvedev: Was this message to decipher?

Tatyana Denisenko: Not yet.

Gayane Petrosyan: When we shot on the White Sea, there was Alexander Agafonov, who has been trying to decipher the language of dolphins all his life. We shot how he put the hydrophone, wrote the speech Beluh. Их недаром называют морскими канарейками, ведь они в самых разных ситуациях используют более 50 разных звуков. Когда плаваешь с белухами, слышишь их под водой, они общаются друг с другом.

Гаянэ Петросян

Сергей Медведев: Это слышно человеческим ухом?

Гаянэ Петросян: Да.

Сергей Медведев: Это такой писк?

Когда плаваешь с белухами, слышишь их под водой, они общаются друг с другом

​ Гаянэ Петросян: Мне, например, этот звук напоминает бормашину.

Сергей Медведев: Есть какие-то люди, долго работающие с дельфинами, которые могут понимать отдельные звуки и месседжи (есть же люди, которые расшифровывают, скажем, язык волков)?

Татьяна Денисенко: В Финляндии есть один ученый-филолог, который часто общается с российскими биологами. И он говорит, что почти расшифровал язык дельфинов, что он действительно есть, и он красивый. Но эти данные пока не опубликованы.

Сергей Медведев: Вы, Гаянэ, ныряли с дельфинами, с белухами, общались с ними?

Гаянэ Петросян: Да, но в большей степени ныряли и общались мои соавторы, Татьяна Белей и Юлия Петрик, опытные фридайверы.

Сергей Медведев: Дельфин боится акваланга?

Гаянэ Петросян: С аквалангом трудно с ними плавать: дельфины очень быстрые, подвижные, а акваланг стесняет возможности. Чтобы плыть рядом с дельфином, надо достаточно быстро подниматься и опускаться. На человека без акваланга морские животные лучше реагируют, воспринимают как своего. У моих соавторов большой опыт общения с дельфинами, с белухами в естественной среде - это очень интересный опыт.

Сергей Медведев: А как выглядит общение фридайвера и дельфина?

Гаянэ Петросян: Это можно увидеть в фильме. Есть своя этика – например, нельзя трогать их руками. Это просто вопрос уважения и этики. Если, например, я подойду к вам, незнакомому человеку, и начну вас хватать, вам это вряд ли понравится. Точно так же и дельфин.

Сергей Медведев: С животными же можно, даже с дикими - с волками, лисами.

На человека без акваланга морские животные лучше реагируют, воспринимают как своего

​ Гаянэ Петросян: Если он сам проявит интерес, сам подойдет – значит, может быть, он хочет тебя потрогать.

Сергей Медведев: Коммуникация заключается в каком-то совместном плавании, в совместны маневрах, которые они делают под водой?

Гаянэ Петросян: В том числе, ведь дельфины могут повторять движения. Даже по кадрам видно, что есть контакт. Я думаю, человек в принципе далек от понимания того, что же там на самом деле. По крайней мере, должны быть какие-то попытки понять, основанные, в первую очередь, на взаимоуважении и понимании, что мы, в первую очередь - партнеры, мы не должны пытаться над ними преобладать.

Сергей Медведев: Когда выходит ваш фильм? Какая у него прокатная судьба? Where can you see it?

Гаянэ Петросян: 24 февраля состоялась премьера в большом зале кинотеатра «Октябрь» - довольна успешная, реакция хорошая.

Сергей Медведев: Это полнометражный фильм?

Гаянэ Петросян: Да, 72 минуты. 21 марта фильм выходит в прокат, будет в сети кинотеатров «Каро» в Москве, Санкт-Петербурге и ряде других городов. Информация будет в интернете, на афишах, на сайте «Каро», Центра документального кино.

Сергей Медведев: Там же был краудфандинг, и вы набрали деньги гораздо быстрее и лучше, чем предполагали.

Гаянэ Петросян: Да, за две недели собрали нужную сумму, даже больше.

Сергей Медведев: Люди со всего мира давали деньги?

Гаянэ Петросян: Да, из разных стран, даже из каких-то маленьких островных, откуда мы вообще не ожидали. Сказали, что фильм о дельфинах, о дельфинариях, о том, что дельфины должны жить на свободе…

Сергей Медведев: Какую сумму вы набрали?

Гаянэ Петросян: 33 тысячи долларов. Люди реагировали действительно потрясающе! Вопрос же не только в деньгах: письма приходили одно за другим целыми днями и ночами - поддержка, добрые пожелания… И мы до сих пор их получаем. Что-то хорошее в людях откликается…

Сергей Медведев: Вы считаете, дельфинарии и океанариумы в принципе надо запретить?

Начинать надо с разработки мер содержания животных в неволе, и эти нормы должны быть очень жесткими

​ Татьяна Денисенко: В наше время запрещать ничего нельзя, потому что запретный плод сладок, но начинать надо с разработки мер содержания животных в неволе, которых у нас совершенно нет для диких животных, в частности, для китообразных. Эти нормы должны быть очень жесткими, такими, чтобы их было очень трудно было выполнить.

Надо начать с закрытия передвижных океанариумов, где животные погибают в большом количестве. Нужно полностью запретить отлов. Тех животных, которые сейчас живут в дельфинариях, необходимо реабилитировать и выпускать на волю. Самая главная наша задача сейчас - это создание некоего реабилитационного центра, в котором эти животные будут реабилитироваться перед тем, как их выпустят на волю. Именно туда, в реабилитационный центр могут приходить люди, волонтеры, смотреть, как это делается. Можно создавать определенные образовательные программы для того, чтобы люди понимали, насколько лучше увидеть животное, которое уйдет на волю, нежели то, которое всю жизнь останется рабом.

Надо развивать программы по наблюдению животных в природе, в естественной среде. Понятно, что не всегда люди могут увидеть дельфина или кита с кораблика (я сама часто была на таких программах за рубежом), но зато когда ты это видишь, это воспринимается как чудо. Дети этому действительно рады больше, чем походу в дельфинарий.

Нам надо отдавать свои долги животному миру

​ Сергей Медведев: Я разделяю зоозащитные установки. Курс должен быть на то, чтобы дельфинариев, как и зоопарков, не было как таковых. Если люди хотят общаться с дельфинами, то пусть человек не приходит смотреть на дельфина в банке, а наденет акваланг или станет фридайвером, пусть он погружается под воду, пусть дельфины смотрят на человека. Где-то в Африке есть такой зоопарк, где животные живут в дикой природе, а люди ходят по клеткам, по загонам, и животные смотрят на людей. Пусть животные смотрят на нас, а не мы - на животных. Прошло уже столько сотен лет - нам надо отдавать свои долги животному миру.