Away from the "Russian world"

President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev published in the state newspaper Egimen Kazakhstan (Sovereign Kazakhstan) a software article in which he ordered the Kazakh alphabet from the Cyrillic alphabet to Latin by 2025. The reform will not affect the “patriotic” circles in Russia with indignation - although the Russian language, in which less than 30% of Kazakhstan speaks.

Kazakhstan remains one of the few Central Asian countries of the former Soviet Union, where the Cyrillic alphabet is used for writing-in addition to it, the Cyrillic alphabet is used only in Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. In the 20th century, the Kazakhs already survived two language reforms: in 1929 they switched from Arabic letter to Latin (a year after Ataturk transferred to the Turkish Latin), in 1940 to Cyrillic. Now about a quarter of the population of Kazakhstan does not know Kazakh at all, but speaks and writes to the Russian language, which has an official status fixed by the Constitution in the country. Nevertheless, many users of social networks in Russia perceived the order of Nazarbayev to translate the Kazakh language into a Latin in bayonets, regarding him as the betrayal of the closest ally and the next "knife in the back". Many opposed this reform in Kazakhstan itself, considering it untimely and expensive.

Peremitators Kazakhs - go to Latin, the Russians retained them, like nomads -tribes, gave the earth, and they spit into the soul of great Russia ... Pic.twitter.com/y2zEFDP76G

- Alexander Shakhmatov (@singerthinker) April 12, 2017

Applications about the need to introduce a Latin from the mouth of Nazarbayev sounded earlier, for example, a year ago , but this time we are talking about the development of a real "road map" of the transition to the Latin alphabet. This card should be ready in 2017. To reform the language over the next 8 years, a lot to do. First of all, create (or rather, recreate) a Latin alphabet with special symbols for transmitting the Kazakh language. Since 1929, the Kazakh language, like any other, has constantly developed and underwent many changes. It will be necessary to teach Latin millions of millions of people who do not know her, that is, to actually put a whole country at the desks and prepare teachers for this. It is necessary to print textbooks and reprint a huge amount of literature (opponents of the reform, among other things, are afraid that the process of selecting "correct" books for reprinting will be biased).

Radio Liberty questioned the upcoming transition to the Latinitsa of the Kazakh political scientist Idos Saryma . He is sure: the transition to the Latin alphabet is inevitable and useful for Kazakhstan, as inevitably a gradual decrease in the country of the number of people who do not speak at all and do not read in Kazakh. "This is a kind of large symbolic transition that will marked that Kazakhstan comes out of the influence of the" Russian world. "This is, in fact, decolonization."

- Applications for the transition to the Latin from 2025 are not the first time from the lips of the Kazakh leadership. A year ago, the authorities of Kazakhstan announced the start of the program of the Kazakh alphabet to the Latin alphabet. Today we are talking about a certain “graphics” of the transition that the government should develop in 2017. To what extent can today news be regarded as a real step forward on the way of abandoning the Cyrillic alphabet in Kazakhstan?

-This is our second more or less serious entry over the past five years. The first attempt failed because of the contradictions within the elite, partly within the presidential administration, because of the forces in it, which can be conditionally called "pro-Russian." Their pressure did not allow this program to fully implement this program. Many discussions were actually curled up. This time, I think, the project of the transition to Latin will still become a reality. This is a very important step, which, in my opinion, will allow Kazakhstan to make its geopolitical, civilizational choice more clear and convex.

- What is your optimism connected with? With the weakening of these, as you call them, "pro-Russian groups" or with something else?

Kazakh youth has their aspirations and ideals, which are unlikely to include such a thing as "Russian world"

- The stage of modernization that we are now entering is the most difficult. We have already passed our oil era, and now the real modernization, some real steps towards modernization are impossible without the participation of society itself. But our society is still more Kazakh, Kazakh-speaking, it has certain expectations and requirements that the authorities will be implemented in one way or another. Today, it is the Kazakh major and Kazakh youth that determines the agenda. It has its aspirations, life goals, ideals, which are unlikely to include such a conditional concept as "Russian world".

-Did any sociological studies of this issue have been conducted in Kazakhstan? Are there many supporters of language reform in the country and how many opponents?

- If we take the transition to the Latinage, it concerns mainly those who know, owns and for operating purposes use state language, that is, Kazakh. This, in fact, concerns anyone else. Neither Russia, nor Beijing, nor Brussels, nobody. This is our choice, and in the Kazakh majority, in the Kazakh society, a relative consensus for the Latinia has long existed. There are reservations, there are taste, aesthetic differences, but in general, I think, society applies positively to this. As such, there were no big studies yet, but I think that now such research will be and we will be able to evaluate this in some percentage, more clear. In general, I think, if you take my feelings and some other studies that were previously, then it is clear. There are generation issues, the older generation is more conservative. Still, the choice of language is the choice of fate, and it is clear that the older generation will relate to this with more anxiety, and the youth, it seems to me, who has already traveled enough around the world, and the world media looks, and so on, she is more ready for this, she will have a more positive attitude.

- In Kazakhstan, there are citizens of the country who do not know the Kazakh language, for whom this is inappropriate, they speak and write in Russian.

- There is, of course. There is a population that has not made its choice. Many are still sitting somewhere in the 90s and think that such a topic as the state language will pass by them. But in general, I think, in percentage terms and in a qualitative terms, the situation today differs from what was 20 years ago or earlier.

-In this case, do you have any concerns if you consider this reform as another step away from the "Russian world" that this language reform can provoke some kind of sharp reaction from Russia? In Ukraine, it was precisely the language question that, let’s say, was used by Moscow to catalyze separatism.

- I would not compare with Ukraine. Still, the Ukrainian conflict is based on its political choice-movement towards NATO and movement towards the European Union. In Kazakhstan, the situation is different. Kazakhstan in any case, in any case, will take into account Russia in its domestic political projects. We have 7.5 thousand kilometers of the total border, 22 percent of the Russian population. The implementation of Latin is mainly applies to Kazakhs, the Kazakh language. Those people who are integrated know the state language, for them this is not a question. As for those Russian or Russian -speaking citizens who do not know the state language today, it will pass by them. What is the difference if they do not read Kazakh newspapers or Kazakh sites, in what graphic version are they written?

What is the difference if they do not read Kazakh newspapers or Kazakh sites, in what graphic version are they written?

This is, first of all, the Kazakh issue, the internal Kazakh, related to the implementation of the state language policy, but in no case, it will not affect the interests of the Russian -speaking population. As the Russian channels watched, so let them look. As Russian or some other newspapers read, so let them read. There is this sector in Kazakhstan, it narrows, but it is, and to satisfy the social, economic, cultural and other needs of the people living in it, there is more than enough information in it.

- In 2012, a group of public figures proposed to withdraw from the Kazakh Cyrillic alphabet, with 42 letters, 14 characters, which, as the authors believed, did not correspond to the Turkic phonetic tradition. For example, letters e, s, b. Why not dwell on this compromise version?

-There are a lot of specific disputes within Kazakh society, including a group of people who believe that such methods can begin some kind of movement. But it would again be half a compromise decision of a certain group of persons. In general, if you make a choice, it must be made in the direction of the Latin. We are part of the big Turkic world, many Turkic countries have already de facto switched to Latin: Azerbaijan, Türkiye, Uzbekistan and others. I think this question will arise in Kyrgyzstan. We will develop regional cooperation, we have Turkic projects, this is one moment. The second is the integration, as the president said. But for me personally, as for a person who is more interested in political aspects, this choice itself is important. This is a symbolic choice, this is a kind of very large symbolic transition that will marry the fact that Kazakhstan comes out of the influence of the "Russian world". This is, in fact, decolonization. Here you can find many aspects that can already be discussed by specialized. But the political part, it seems to me, is most important and value.

The newspaper Sotsijald QAZAƣTAN ("Socialist Kazakhstan") for 1937 (special issue of the Constitution of the Kazakh SSR)

- You said at the very beginning that Kazakhstan "passed his oil well -being." Indeed, the era of high oil prices is over. Does it not seem suspicious to you that President Nursultan Nazarbayev spoke with this initiative right now, when it became clear that oil prices if they returned to some previous level, then not soon? Maybe this is an attempt on the part of the President to give a handout to society in conditions when he can no longer be offered anything else?

- You partially answered your question. You see, any autocratic power, or electoral autocracy, is also such an expression, is very populist in its word. The authorities are trying all the time to intercept those slogans that are popular, in demand, but at the same time do not directly threaten its existence. It is necessary to load the semantic field all the time, and the authorities of course playing these games, this is a question of the survival of the regime, the existence of the regime, its future. The authorities also sees what events take place in Russia, it is clear that very large architectonic shifts occur inside society. A very younger generation comes to the field, to the political arena, which is oriented and thinks differently. And the authorities are trying to master this field too. This, probably, does not have any big secret. The authorities will play on this field, the authorities already play on this field, she believes that so far it is able to intercept in virtually any slogans that are put forward. Moreover, the slogans are tested, which have already passed a certain adaptation in relation to public opinion. Therefore, everything is obvious here.

- Nevertheless, you have the hope that it will not end with one populism here, that this reform will really be made to life over the next years?

- You see, when the authorities say one thing, but does another ... Remember, Lincoln has an expression: "You can deceive part of the people all the time, you can deceive all the people for some time, but you can not deceive the whole people all the time." Now the generation is a little different, and twice to deceive it for five years, probably, will be very difficult even of this power. This is one moment. The second point: it is clear that the current young people should be combined with some projects, some kind of tangible affairs. We live now, live here, and I would like the changes to take place "in real life." The power can simply not disappoint the younger generation, the new political elite simply cannot, because it is suicidal. Nazarbayev at one time, in 2001, his reaction to the movement of Kazakhstan Democracy and others, rejected a whole generation from himself, which can be called the "generation of perestroika." It was a very important, meaning -forming generation that made economic reforms laid the foundations of capitalism in Kazakhstan. If the authorities now reject the “generation of independence” from itself, a generation that will eventually give a historical assessment of Nazarbayev himself, the results of his reign, to make high -quality and semantic assessments, then Nazarbayev will lose in history. But he is still a politician who wants to remain in history, who wants to be the founder of the state. I think that the authorities will make it today's political article by a certain political platform, a certain state program in which the transition schedule, some mechanisms, methods and so on will already indicate.

A plate with the name of the street in Russian and Kazakh in the city of Uralsk

- I would like to return to some detailed aspects of this transition. One of the arguments of the opponents of the Kazakh language transition to Latin is the cost of reform, which, in the context of such a large country as Kazakhstan, in conditions of low oil prices and reduction of budget revenues may be quite costly.

- You know, not a single serious reforms that changed the essence of the national discourse that changed the nation, were not implemented in good times. Nowhere, neither in Europe, nor in Asia, nor in Africa. Even if you take the Turkic countries that have switched to the Latin alphabet, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, they switched to it in much worst times. There are a lot of nuances. One of them is that the whole nation will simply at the same time sit at the desks, yes. This is a very large symbolic choice. Therefore, here the issue of cost, it seems to me, is a little overvalued. When it comes to very big things, large elections, there is always the concept of a victim and there is a matter of price. It seems to me that if we are talking about the fact that we are building a new society, if we are talking about the fact that we are modernizing society, and the purpose of modernization is a completely different society that looks differently at the world, then this price is expected and normal.

The whole nation will simply simultaneously sit at the desks

If, say, some part of the older generation cannot master the Latin graphics, for them you can leave small language and other groups, media, which will be convenient for them. But keep in mind, in the twentieth century, the Kazakh people, the Kazakh nation changed its alphabet three times-at first there was Arabic, then Latin, then Cyrillic, and all three reforms were carried out for political reasons and did not take into account either the economic context, nor social, or any other. The issue of cost will be in any case, but it seems to me that there is more speculation here than some real basis. Our state pursues a state information policy, language policy, and part of the money allocated to it simply transforms into another. Our books are published, newspapers are printed, there are a fairly large number of sites that are already working in Latin, even the Kazakh state information agency in Kazakh is working today in three languages and two types of Kazakh graphics, including Latin .

- You said about books. With the transition to Latin, this problem will inevitably arise - you will have to translate a huge amount of literature, journalism published over the years of use by the Cyrillic alphabet. How can this issue be resolved?

- It seems to me that there are two methods. You can follow the path of the same Turkey, Azerbaijan and other countries. Firstly, the "Translation Corporation" is created, which will adapt world literature. Meanwhile, it will be necessary to create a very large state order for the reprint of high -quality literature, which was in Cyrillic. This does not mean that its entire volume needs to be published, but the whole main classic, all valuable, created for the Soviet period, must be reprinted, and very good circulations, sufficient to get into school libraries, district libraries, regional, city, university and so on.

- And who will decide what to reprint and what is not?

This is an opportunity to make a "cultural upgrade"

- This is the subject of discussion. Ideally, you can create a not very large public commission, you can move yourself, you can now create lists - 500 books that must now be published, 500 books that need to be read in Latin. This is a huge field for intellectuals, humanities, in general for the humanitarian sphere. This is a huge cultural challenge and a huge opportunity to make such a "cultural upgrade". I think that both civil society and power itself should equally participate in this.

Kazakh magazine "Aikap" ("Mirror"), which was published in Troitsk (now the Chelyabinsk region of Russia) using Arabic graphics

– Мы с вами в самом начале говорили о русскоязычном населении, которое вообще не знает казахского, для которого, как вы сказали, не важно будет, латиница там или кириллица. Еще год назад, когда Назарбаев вел речь об этой программе, возникали опасения, что после перевода казахского языка на латиницу следующим шагом будет попытка заставить русскоязычных все-таки выучить казахский язык, язык страны, гражданами которой они являются.

– Ну, большой выбор в итоге делать придется. Как показывают многие социологические исследования, и российские в том числе, финансируемые российскими структурами, русские в Казахстане делятся на три большие группы, каждая – по 30 с чем-то процентов. Есть 30 процентов, которые так или иначе желают уехать из Казахстана. Есть 30 процентов, которые уже сделали свой выбор, отдают детей в казахские садики, сами учат казахский и так далее. И есть 30 процентов, которые еще этот выбор не сделали. Этот выбор, о котором мы говорим, так или иначе делать придется. Демографическая ситуация очень быстро меняется. Сегодня, если брать средний возраст русских в Казахстане, это 47–48 лет. Если брать казахское население, то средний возраст 27–28 лет. Соответственно, рождаемость – сегодня в первых классах уже до 90% казахских ребятишек. И ситуация будет меняться, в среднем русскоязычное население сокращается на 1% в год. К 2025 году ситуация будет уже совсем другая.

– То есть вы думаете, что каких-то принудительных действий со стороны властей здесь просто не понадобится?

– Это не входит в политическую философию нынешнего режима. Сама по себе стилистика режима, эстетика режима не предполагает каких-то таких исключительно резких движений в том или ином направлении. И это вызывает, кстати, очень большое недовольство у казахского населения, что власть тоже не может не учитывать – иначе она прослывет исключительно пророссийской, прорусской. Это попытка выбрать из двух стульев. Но это очень сложная попытка, эти стулья разъезжаются во все стороны. Поэтому надо выбирать тот стул, который больше и комфортнее, но при этом и второй стул в руках удержать. Я думаю, что пока нынешнему режиму хватит разума и доброй воли, для того чтобы эти стулья как-то шли рядом. Но надо учитывать, что казахское общество сильно выросло с момента обретения независимости. Мы прошли путь от национального меньшинства до квалифицированного большинства. 71 процент населения – это этнические казахи. Еще процентов 8–9 – тюркские народы, растущая узбекская диаспора, которая через 15 лет станет второй по численности в Казахстане, уйгурская диаспора и прочие. Это тюркские народы, рождаемость у них очень высокая, и жизненные устремления совершенно иные. Поэтому ситуация будет меняться, но надо правильно говорить, правильно объяснять, что переход на латиницу касается только казахов либо людей, которые знают казахский язык. Иных это не затронет.

Русский язык используется в делопроизводстве, на русском языке издается огромное количество СМИ

Русский язык используется в делопроизводстве, на русском языке издается огромное количество СМИ, информационное поле – пожалуйста, смотрите любой российский канал, сейчас это никак не ограничено. Самой России это выгодно. Лучше иметь более надежное, более стабильное государство, которое имеет с тобой 7,5 тысяч километров общих границ, а не источник терроризма, экстремизма, наркотрафика и прочего. Here is such a choice. Если Россия рядом хочет иметь более или менее предсказуемую, нормальную страну, то понятно, что надо поддерживать модернизацию в Казахстане. Если же этого понимания нет, то на его отсутствие не надо оглядываться, надо делать многие вещи, может быть, с удвоенной энергией. Вот такой вот выбор, очень сложный, непростой, но, тем не менее, это выбор, который делать придется. Я сравниваю это с химиотерапией. Химиотерапия – очень неприятная процедура, но если мы хотим избавиться от раковой опухоли, то она просто необходима. Да, она вызывает тошноту, да, это болезненно, да, происходит облысение, но если мы в итоге хотим получить здоровый организм, то какой-то выбор надо делать.