Our guest is Murray Ebraham

Salieri Forman in an interview with Radio Liberty (1997)

Archival project "Radio Liberty this week 20 years ago." The most interesting and significant from the Archive of the Radio Freedom of twenty years ago. Incomplete story. Still living hopes. Could Russia go the other way?

Interview with actor Murray Ebraham. For the first time on the air of February 18, 1997.

Ivan Tolstoy : We dedicated today's program to the American film actor Murray Ebraham, the Oscar laureate for the role of Salieri in the film Milos Forman "Amadeus". Murray Ebraham gave an interview to our New York employee Jan Runov, who prepared today's program.

Yan Runov : A windy night of 1823 Some crazy old man shouted from the window of his house in Vienna: "Mozart, forgive your killer! I repent! I killed you, Mozart!" And a moment later he tried to commit suicide. These are the first frames of the film, accompanied by the music of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, his 25th symphony, written when he was 17 years old. And then Salieri confesses the young priest, and the whole film is the confession of the old man. Murray Ebraham lived in Brooklyn even after he received the Oscar Award for the performance of Salieri's role in the film directed by Milos Forman Amadeus. He took the figurine "Oscars" in a food plastic bag. He does not want to leave New York, continues to use public transport, he only recently moved from Brooklyn to Manhattan. I saw his new work in the repertoire theater on the 14th street in the play by David Manett "Life in the theater." The focus of this play is for two performers - the relationship between the aging, living the former glory actor, and the actor young. “I think mannet is one of our best playwrights. I am very pleasure from his plays,” Murray Ebraham told me when, after the performance, I asked him about the interview. Ebraham calls himself Murray, although his name, which he does not really love, is fachit. This name was given to him by the Father-Sirian. Mother is from the Italian province of Calabria. Murray himself was born in Texas, and in New York he has been living for a long time when travel in Sabweu cost only 25 cents, today it is 1 dollar 50 cents. Murray Ebraham starred in Russia, in the film adaptation of Sholokhov’s novel “Quiet Don”, ordered by Italian television. So many years have passed, and he all the time recalls this. By the way, in Russia, during the filming, he and his wife Katherine, whom he has since sometimes called in the Russian manner of Katryn, celebrated the 30th anniversary of his marriage. Murray loves Brooklyn, where he lived on Istron Parkway all those years that he made his way to glory. His children grew there. There are two of them. When there were no roles, Murray took up any work: he was a loader in the company for the transportation of furniture, was a waiter (this is an ordinary acting profession in America), played Santa Claus in the Masis store during the Christmas sale period. Such was his debut in New York. Then he starred in several television and television and did not refuse any appearance on the stage or on the screen - if only they would notice! And now - noticed! Having played Salieri in the film "Amadeus", he gained world fame at the age of 53. We met near his house in the Manhattan district of Greenwige Williage. It was morning, Murray had not yet had breakfast, we went to the cafe. At first I coped with his wife's health. Our conversation began with her.

Murray Ebraham : We met in Los Angeles and love each other.

Jan Runov : Is she an actress?

Murray Ebraham : No. So many years have passed. We have been married for more than 30 years.

Jan Runov : Murray took a clock with a lid out of his pocket.

Murray Ebraham : This is her father's watch. I did not know him, he died when she was only 3 years old. For many years the clock lay in the box, now I wear them. And somehow suddenly I wanted to learn more about their first owner. He received a watch as a gift from the film company "Metro Goldvin Mayer", "MGM". He was a movie editor, the first president of the union of film editors in this country. As I said, he died for a very long time, and I did not know him, but suddenly there was a desire to find a connection with the past, I had nostalgia for that world, part of which this person was. That world, the world "MGM", was very family. Do you know about this? There was a MGM club, the company had a great reputation, many excellent films were produced, and employees were very proud of belonging to this film studio, the best in America. Sometimes they worked there around the clock. They sought to release a new picture every week. In 1939, 48 films were made - almost weekly in the film. But the quantity was not reflected in quality, because it was then that great paintings were published, such as "ruled by the wind." Then people were attached to the place of work and proudly said: "I am from" MGM "or" I am from "Warner Brothers". And they worked in these companies for many years. Now - who has more money, he buys you as a prostitute. I do not condemn the prostitutes, next to whom I grew up on the border with Mexico. The prostitute is at least honest, because she does not pretend to be someone else, she shows with all her appearance: I am a prostitute, and does not claim anything else, unlike those who, for example, without being an artist, wants to seem to them.

... with all her appearance, she shows: I am a prostitute, and does not claim to be anything else, unlike those who, for example, without being an artist, want to seem to them

When I come to Los Angeles, I always feel great there. I generally like to ride. We, actors - travelers, is part of our work. I love to come to Los Angeles, but it’s hard to live there, because, for example, I like to observe life outside my apartment, this is just what New York distinguishes. Here, if you want to walk, you go to the store, you go to the cinema, here you don’t need to get into the car for this and go 40 minutes. In New York-more fun. Maybe it sounds stupid. Is it possible not to love to drive in your own car? But I feel in isolation in the car. And in Los Angeles all life in a car. This is the specifics of the city, you won’t get anywhere without a car, it becomes an integral part of your life, and you are forced to get used to isolation, to loneliness: you close the windows, turn on the air conditioning, radio, and your whole world fits in the cabin of your car. I don’t like such a life, my life is among people, in New York.

Murray Ebraham in The Mystery of Dante

Jan Runov : New York is also now different, you are not walking here.

Murray Ebraham : You are right, it is now a dangerous city, so the role of the theater has increased. Where else can you enjoy communication? Not in the cinema, where it is dangerous, and you are again on your own, unless your neighbors interfere with you, not at the TV, where you are again isolated, only in the theater. Especially in a small theater where people see each other. There are now very few such theaters.

Jan Runov : Let's get back to your personal life. You said that you lived with your wife for more than 30 years. It's hard for me to understand. How can she suffer with the actor for so many years, and how do you, the Hollywood and Broadway actor, remain faithful to one woman all these years? How do you manage to solve your family conflicts?

Murray Ebraham : Everything is explained very simply - I was lucky with her.

Jan Runov : Do you understand each other so well?

Murray Ebraham : Not always, not really. She is a good diplomat, I am not. I look like Russians by nature - I easily explode. Perhaps that is why I understand Chekhov so well, I have a very hot temperament. And the Russians react to me calmly - this is normal, it will pass. And my wife also understands this, she is a very calm, very comfortable wife. And I, as an actor, go a lot, and we are not all the time together, this is also one of the reasons for the stability of our marriage.

Jan Runov : How did it happen that you were chosen for the role of Pantelei in the new version of the "Pacific Don"?

Murray Ebraham : I, right, do not know. The Russians began work on the film in Italy, and I starred a lot in this country, at least times a year, and, apparently, the people who gained actors recommended me. I think Bondarchuk, the director of the film, saw me on the screen. And we entered into a contract.

Murray Ebraham in the film "Quiet Don"

Jan Runov : How did you go to the village of Veshenskaya? Where did you live, where did you eat?

Murray Ebraham : The difference between Moscow and Veshenskaya is the same as everywhere between the city and the village. People there, in Veshenskaya, are very independent, they even go differently than people in Moscow, they feel that the Cossacks step on their land.

People there, in Veshenskaya, are very independent, they even go differently than people in Moscow, they feel that the Cossacks step on their land

I lived in a private house, the owners were very caring, they always coped whether I was hungry, if I wanted to have breakfast with them. In the evenings, the owner of the house, and then it was very cold, went out half -naked into the yard, doused with ice water and shouted to me: “Come on too! Eh, good! Come! Come! Come! This is good, good, good!” And I shouted to him: "No! No! No! No!" And in the morning - the same thing. And he is not the only one, many did so - a local tradition.

Jan Runov : Did you meet the prototype of your hero on the street?

Murray Ebraham : I found many prototypes. By the way, very often local residents, knowing that I play Pantelea, surrounding me, began to limp. Some bearded old people in Cossack caps, with a crutch, were very similar to how I imagined Pantelea - they were very strong physically. Bondarchuk was also a very strong person, firm, like this table we are sitting at. And not only physically - he knew what he wanted.

Jan Runov : Was it easy to work with him?

Murray Ebraham : Me? Yes. He, too, was very hot, he wants everything to be the way he wants. But with me and with some other actors, he was very kind, even generous. We worked with him then.

Jan Runov : Could you compare it with any of the American directors?

Murray Ebraham : I think that he is in the warehouse of the mind, by the method of work was closer to the east than to the west. I would compare it soon with the great Japanese Kurosava. Bondarchuk came to the set of the absolute owner. In Japan, Kurosava calls the Dragon, in Russia Bondarchuk could be called a bear. I would not want to apply the word "dictator", but it most corresponds to the truth. For me personally, he was a good dictator. His wife, Irina Skobtseva, played my wife, mother of Gregory, and her daughter, Natalya Bondarchuk, played Natalia. She played an amazingly scene of death. In general, I'm not saying anything bad about anyone, this is my rule. If I can’t say something good about a person, I won’t say anything about him at all. But I think that it is very difficult to make a film with members of your family, because after the shooting day you need to return home and live together, and I think that work is one thing, and the house and family are different. In America, our film is almost unknown, it was designed for Europeans, and duplication is a difficult thing. In addition, duplicated paintings do not like in America. This led us to cultural isolation in the field of cinema and theater. Why, for example, not be a constant Chekhov theater in New York, 200-300 places? I would play there with great pleasure.

Jan Runov : What did you eat in Veshenskaya? Anything unusual for you?

Murray Ebraham : Yes, but I don’t know how to describe. The hostess treated me to something like a jellied meat ...

Jan Runov : Ahhh! Aspic!

Murray Ebraham : It was amazingly tasty! From pork legs. They had their own pigs, their hens and very fresh, still warm eggs. They had no problems with food, all of their own. They repeat there, they do not depend on anyone and look much healthier than Muscovites. In their lives, there are more physical exertion and the quality of food products are much better - everyone grows themselves. And I also love beautiful women, generally women. For me, almost all of them are beautiful. But there, in Veshenskaya, there were those that I have not seen in my whole life. I think that their openness, friendliness gives them beauty. Women there are much easier than men. However, men are only at first closed. One Russian woman said that there people are very welcoming in relation to guests, especially foreign, but rather cold in relation to each other. I accept these words on faith, but it is difficult to understand.

Jan Runov : When you beat in Russia, did you drink vodka?

Murray Ebraham : tried. But to drink as they are impossible. I can’t drink a glass of vodka and drink a beer with a mug. I tried it and immediately fell. Then he refused. No, no, not vodka. Oh, how they drink vodka, beer!

Jan Runov : During the period of preparation for filming, of course, you read a film score, and, perhaps, the novel itself. You probably have your own idea of the then Russia? The action of the novel unfolds during the Civil War.

Murray Ebraham : They still talk about her there. I remember from the Sholokhov novel that then the Cossacks often fought against each other. At the same time, it is argued that the Cossacks always won. How always? If some won, then the other Cossacks suffered defeat? My Pantelei speaks about this.

Jan Runov : Did anything extraordinary during the filming?

Murray Ebraham : I had to rush on the three horses along the snow -white steppe. It was necessary to remove the scene without bonds, from one time, since after passing the snow becomes dirty. And I have never ruled in my life with a three. Installed three cameras. It was a very crucial moment. My son was driving behind me, he is a good rider, and he told me that I first go to the camera, a little to the right, and then turn the horses a little to the left. Bondarchuk, he was in a hat and fur coat, because he was frost, ordered: "Come on!" I whipped the horses, led them to the right, and then I couldn’t turn them to the left and rushed right on the camera and people. Everyone rushed to the sides, I rush in full - fuck, bang, tarrars! But no one was injured, everyone managed to bounce.

Jan Runov : You probably have many similar stories?

Murray Ebraham : Yes, here is in the repertoire theater, where I played in the play "Life in the theater", the action takes place behind the scenes, in the acting dressing room. On the stage, on a flush with the auditorium, there were two chairs - for me and for my partner. And somehow an old woman entered the hall for 70 years. She was late and entered shortly before the end of the performance. She entered, looked with her eyes with her free place, saw a chair on stage (the scene, I repeat, was without stage) and sat down. She sat next to the actor, my partner.

There is silence on the stage. What's happened? I looked out and - Oh, God! My partner is trying to explain the old woman that she should make room, as this is the scene that actors play

And at this time I stood behind the scenes and gave a replica from there. Suddenly I do not hear an answer to my words. There is silence on the stage. What's happened? I looked out and - Oh, God! My partner is trying to explain to the old woman that she should make room, as this is the scene in which the actors play. “For no reason!” She said. “This is a very good place, from here it is clearly visible.” He says: "You did not understand." “But I don’t have to understand,” she replies, “I have a subscription.” Then the ticketer asked someone from the first row to give in to the old woman, otherwise the performance could not continue. The man gave way, stood somewhere behind, and we managed to finish the performance.

Jan Runov : Now tell us about the saddest moment of your acting life.

Murray Ebraham : The death of a close friend. My life is my work and my friends. Geraldin Page was my very close friend, she could live and live, we were wonderful partners on stage, we felt each other. It was hard to lose her.

Geraldin Page and Murray Ebraham. 1983

Yan Runov : You played in the movie Salieri, who is considered a mochart killer. Would you like to play the political villain of the scale of Stalin, Hitler or the Khomeini or Saddam Hussein closer to us in time?

Murray Ebraham : I played Stalin in Paris. Stalin in the last days of his life. I tried to show him as a person who had reached the extreme degree of embittiness, to rabies, especially before death. And Hitler is very difficult to play. I could not enter the image of a person in which I can not find a single one or less human line. To play Hitler is not.

Jan Runov : Did you feel sympathy for Salieri?

Murray Ebraham : Oh, of course, I liked him!

Yan Runov : Is he, in your opinion, really a killer?

Murray Ebraham : I do not think he killed Mozart.

Jan Runov : Could?

Murray Ebraham : We could all. Each of us can kill. Salieri was a big philanthropist, he helped the widows and children of musicians. Salieri was a very believer and already considered himself a killer from the fact that he dared to just think about this. This is typical for Christians. To think for Salieri - almost the same as to do. So he had a feeling of guilt. Yes, he more than once wanted to see this young man, Mozart, dead. But the point is not only this. The grandeur of Salieri’s tragedy is that he raised his hand against God, against His creation. There is something huge, the scale of the Greek tragedy. Salieri - on the verge of insanity, he wanted to measure his strength with the creator himself, no less. Yes, I like Salieri, he was a major person. I think that if you take the music of Salieri and Mozart’s music and perform together, it will not be easy to distinguish one from the other. Yes, I think so.

Jan Runov : You played Russians, Italians and even Jews, as, for example, in the play "Toybel and her demon."

Murray Ebraham : Yes, according to Isaac Bashevisu-Wizger. Isaac himself was a little demon.

Jan Runov : When you played Italian, Jew, Russian, did you look for the typically national features of your character?

Murray Ebraham : I played, first of all, a person like me, but his national features are important to me. When I worked on Chekhov, I even went to Brighton Beach, went there to the restaurant, ate, drank, sat, listened ...

Jan Runov : And what, Brighton helped you understand Chekhov?

Murray Ebraham : This was my first acquaintance with the Russians. They are like acting volcanoes, explosive, like my people. I'm half Italian. Italians are fire! Especially the southern.

Jan Runov : The name of your mother Calabraise. Do you speak Italian?

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Я много снимался в Италии.

Ян Рунов : Вы когда-то играли Санта-Клауса в новогодних праздниках, устаивавшихся магазином "Мейсис". Как вы реагируете на то, что этот магазин не так давно был на грани банкротства и закрыл тогда многие свои отделения?

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Это серьезный вопрос, и касается он меня лично. It hurts. Они дали мне сыграть мою первую роль. Для меня это все равно, что потерять часть Нью-Йорка. А что последует за этим? Эмпайр-стейт-билдинг, Статуя Свободы? Многие мои друзья покидают Нью-Йорк, здесь жить стало нелегко. Я много езжу по другим странам и по Америке, жил в Чикаго, в Сан-Франциско, в Цинциннати, в городах Техаса, Среднего Запада, но Нью-Йорк - единственный город, в котором я всегда хотел жить и могу жить. Чикаго - замечательный город, но актёру там просто не выжить, мало театров. Сан-Франциско - один из красивейших городов Америки, но там почти нет театров, в таком огромном городе. У меня ведь бывают и враги, потому что я говорю то, что чувствую, и если единственный в этом городе продюсер станет моим врагом, где мне тогда работать? Я ведь не из лизоблюдов. Нью-Йорк – вот мой город.

Ян Рунов : У вас есть машина?

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Есть, потому что у меня еще загородный дом. Я ведь хорошо зарабатываю. С тех пор как получил премию "Оскар", я стал делать деньги. Я не богач, но…

Ян Рунов : А что значит для вас "богач"?

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Тот, кто делает миллионы. У меня нет миллионов. Богач - тот, кто может уже не работать и жить очень хорошо. А я должен работать. Fortunately.

Ян Рунов : Сколько вы получаете за роль в кино?

Мюррей Эйбрахам: Этого я вам не скажу. В репертуарном театре я получал всего двести долларов в неделю, после уплаты налогов мне оставалось сто двадцать пять. Но я играл не ради денег, а из любви к театру. Деньги же делаются в кино, поэтому я и снимаюсь.

Ян Рунов : Мюррей Эйбрахам взглянул на часы.

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Извините, я должен идти к своим ученикам, у меня урок.

Ян Рунов : Тогда последний вопрос. Ваш метод работы со студентами основан на системе Станиславского?

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Частично на системе Станиславского, но в основном на моей собственной системе, опирающейся на мой опыт. Хотя мне не нравится во что превратил Фрейд женщину, но идея психоанализа изначально… Ведь слово "психо" означает "душа", об этом позабыли. Психоанализ - это поиск души, ты должен полностью проникнуть в душу своего пациента, чтобы затем суметь помочь ему. Это очень трудно, требует колоссального напряжения, умственного и эмоционального. Только великий актер способен на такое. Он может войти в образ своего героя, отказавшись от себя, отключившись от своих проблем, он творит сиюминутно. При этом на сцене можно потерпеть и неудачу, но важнее сам поиск. И если открытие произошло прямо на сцене, на глазах у зрителей, то это редкое, потрясающее наслаждение, почти мистическое. Но это требует и громадной техники.

Ян Рунов : Значит, по-вашему, актёр – психолог?

Мюррей Эйбрахам : Скорее, священнослужитель.

Ян Рунов : Таков Мюррей Эйбрахам, американский актер, лауреат премии "Оскар", полученной за роль Сальери в фильме Милоша Формана "Амадеус".