Safety must be thought constantly

How to prevent new terrorist attacks in Russian cities?

After the terrorist attack in the St. Petersburg metro, everyone asks themselves the same question: what is the safety of transport if the terrorist could go through all the framework of metal detectors purchased about a year ago and cost considerable money?

After April 3, security measures intensified in the subway - there were much more police officers, the framework began to ring, although this made them simply more noticeable: before that they had only light indicators. However, the New Gazeta in St. Petersburg published an article on the effectiveness of arched metal detectors, where experts say that when the sound is turned off, these devices do not actually work, and also generally doubt the effectiveness of the framework that cost 60 million rubles.

After April 3, security measures intensified in the subway - there were much more police officers, the framework began to ring

But everyone understands that security is not only the perfection of technology, but also the perfection of a system that cannot work without well -trained and disciplined people. We are talking about security in the metro and other public places with the chairman of the regional public movement "For Safety" , the founder and owner of the BORS security companies Dmitry Kurdesov and the deputy of the St. Petersburg Legislative Assembly of the fifth convocation Alexander Kobrinsky .

- Dmitry, today, after the tragedy in the St. Petersburg metro, what can you say about the security system that operated at that time?

- If people have died, if the terrorist carried out his intention to penetrate the subway, then the metro security system was not effective enough against such terrorist attacks.

I evaluate the work of special services quite high. Statistics shows that terrorists always try to kill as many people as possible, and now the bomb was filled with amazing elements - balls: it is done, that there were as many victims as possible. But the attack nevertheless did not occur at the peak, but at 14.40, when there are not so many people in the subway, and I think that the special services managed to violate the plans of the terrorists, who, it seems to me, wanted to blow up the second bomb at a more crowded station - on the "Square of the uprising". So the special services acted well.

- And what is good for their work? The terrorist still entered the subway, and, as the cameras showed, he monitored the work of the police and entered when he was convinced that there was no one to detain him.

-Let's still separate the flies from the cutlets. Those who are engaged in operational, intelligence work are not at the framework, do not engage in a check-in regime, their task is that the terrorist could not commit his conceived, stop his intention at the level of thought. It is clear that now it is difficult to conduct operational work - too many visitors. At the airport or at the station, they can still be tracked, but if the group arrived by car, then it is very difficult to take control of them. This is a huge job, but it was carried out, carried out and will be carried out.

Safety is not only the perfection of technology, but also the perfection of a system that cannot work without well -trained and disciplined people

- Alexander, do you also consider the work of Russian special services good?

- We cannot evaluate the work of special services at all, it is not visible to anyone and not accessible. We can evaluate the work of the police. And now the prosecutor’s office sent materials to the Investigative Committee for initiating a criminal case under the article “Negligence” regarding the police who missed the terrorist. If the case comes to court, then the police did not fulfill their duties.

It is completely indifferent to me who ensures my security - a policeman, an FSB officer, FSO or military counterintelligence. This is the case of specialists who are funded by our taxes. I think that dead and victims in the explosion in the St. Petersburg metro does not matter which special services worked well and which are not very good. I don’t know, and no one knows if the second bomb should explode and how it was discovered, I don’t know if it was necessary to completely block the subway that day.

In general, there is a clear dependence between the fight against terrorists and other bandits and the restriction of the rights and freedoms of citizens. If you close the metro at all, nothing will explode there, but we are unlikely to be ready for it. Therefore, the authorities and special services should choose a reasonable balance between the restriction of citizens' rights and the fight against terrorism. If we take the work of the FSO, we will see that no balance is respected there.

On the site of the attack in the St. Petersburg metro April 3, 2017

When the highest persons arrive in the city, cars are evacuated, regardless of whether they are parked correctly or incorrectly - everyone does not give a damn about it. A huge number of streets are blocked, brewed, and in some places the hatches are simply asphalt, all doors nearby are lined up, people are not allowed anywhere, and in this way the security of the first persons of the state is achieved. Nowhere in the world is this - so that people are completely violated by normal life. Let me remind you how we warned people on Moskovsky Prospekt during the forum so that they would not open the windows and did not protrude, because snipers are everywhere; There were cases when people were simply locked and did not let out from home - this is not possible in any normal country.

There is a clear dependence between the fight against terrorists and other bandits and the restriction of the rights and freedoms of citizens

The FSO law is written so that it can do anything. If other special services go along this path, then we can assume that the terrorists won - deprived citizens of normal life. And citizens will feel that they live in a warring state, this will affect the psyche, and the consequences will be catastrophic - up to political changes. After all, if people can be intimidated properly, then they themselves can demand: let it be better we will have dictatorship, tyranny, just protect us! I hope that no one achieves this, but mass hysteria can lead to this. We know many examples when the “tightening of the nuts” led to this.

-Dmitry, what do you think, when the Russian special services are so enthusiastic about those who somehow did not speak out on the Internet, on social networks, did some kind of “wrong” re-repost, does this distract them from the search for real terrorists?

- I do not agree with you - all this can be part of the operational development. We can scold the special services as much as you like, but their work is very complex and painstaking. See: not a single group has yet taken responsibility for the terrorist attack in the subway, or maybe it is not, maybe these students just decided to realize it like that. If the work of the special services had not been conducted, I assure you: it would explode every day. See what is done abroad. But before the terrorist attack, everything was calm - and how much we caught, they disarmed these terrorists.

- It is clear: after the explosion in the subway, we cannot say that Russian citizens are completely protected. And yet, Alexander, is it enough, in your opinion, is done in the country for the safety of people?

- I have a tough idea that safety should not be thought after explosions. We need to think about it constantly, we have a huge staff of law enforcement agencies - the police, the FSB, the security service, now the Russian Guard, and all of them should take care of our security at our expense. It is clear that if there is a terrorist attack, then they did not work somewhere. It is also clear that the dogs should not be fed when you go hunting.

We can scold the special services as much as you like, but their work is very complicated and painstaking

How safe is it with us - it depends on what to compare with. If with countries leading on their territory a direct struggle against terrorists, then this is one, and if with countries, not yet so much involved in this conflict, then this is another. But, sending the Russian troops to Syria, trying to help Assad’s regime and, as declared, fight ISIS, which was notorious prohibited in Russia, it was necessary to assume that there would be a response in the form of terrorist attacks. It was necessary to evaluate the risks and possibilities of preventing these dangers.

Dmitry Kurdesov

Yes, the USA and Europe, especially after the fight against Taliban, ISIS and other terrorist organizations were also attacked by terrorists, but they have the opportunity to allocate billions of their own security. And we do not have such opportunities - or we will have to take money from doctors, teachers, cultural workers. Such solutions should be based on professional calculations. But in our country, the economy is in the backyard of politics: specialists, deputies, and the government are engaged in solving specific political problems, not thinking about what it will cost us. Therefore, you have to wait for the most unpleasant things.

I think Russia cannot provide its citizens with sufficient security. Take the same framework in the subway, which had been bothering a lot of money: now it turns out that almost all of them were disconnected, and the sergeant on duty at the very place where the terrorist was held, played some kind of game on the phone. It is clear that with the volume of transportation in the metro, the passage of all citizens through these frames is absolutely impossible, it is easier to close the metro. I think the frame should be one to let people with some suspicious backpacks and Baul through it through it. Maybe it makes sense to highlight a special passage for people with luggage.

You can recall that after each attack in Russia they begin to “tighten the nuts”, feverishly seal black moves and basements, put the frames. I remember that after an explosion in the subway in the 90s, one such frame appeared in the Russian State Library, and at first everyone had to go through it, everyone was inspected. It is clear that all this soon stopped: at first the policeman stopped reacting to a squeak when people passing, and then the policeman disappeared, one frame remained.

- Dmitry, really, if you look at the metro, where the terrorist penetrated, - why did he do it? Maybe Alexander is right in his skeptical attitude to this framework of metal detectors?

The work of people who are part of this system remains almost uncontrolled

- The work of the subway I can put a bad rating. The society invests money in improving the security system, in the purchase of these frames, in the video surveillance system. And the work of people who are part of this system remains almost uncontrolled. How many times I went down in the subway and noticed: there is no patrol. When I asked why, they told me: the police were reduced, so there is no patrol. And a person who is engaged in a checkpoint is just sleeping. This is a human factor, a disregard for work.

It depends on the leadership of the subway. After all, what should be ideally? The criminal with a bomb approaches the subway - and simply does not dare to enter there. He sees working frames, sees that people often check bags, sees a patrol. And this criminal, as you know, watched the work of security, and what did he see? Yes, there is a framework, but no one reacts to them, there seems to be video surveillance, but no one looks at the screen - yes I will calmly go!

In order for a crime to be committed, it is necessary that three factors coincide: who, where and when. The task of the criminal is that these factors coincide at least 90%, and the security task is to exclude at least one of them. After all, protection is not needed in order to then catch the offender, but in order for the criminal, going to the protected object, he abandoned his intentions. If a person penetrated the protected territory, then the security works poorly, even if he will be caught later.

- Judging by numerous publications, the guard in the subway just played the phone - can it really be?

Protection is needed so that the offender, approaching the protected object, abandon his intentions

-It makes no sense to show one thing-he played in the phone ... No, this is a security service system. Why did he play? Yes, he is tired! It stands on this frame, it squeaks, nothing happens. He waved his hand, turned around and left - his work was poorly organized. Look, they installed video surveillance, put the guard - he must look, this is his work. Yes, he physically cannot watch an uninteresting black and white film for more than five minutes! Five to ten minutes will look, and then begins to look for ways, how to make it easier for yourself.

-Maybe for this there are some trainings, training systems?

- Any trainings, psychological tests, and so on do not give one hundred percent guarantees that it is at this time that this person who has passed the trainings will act correctly. He got up in the morning, quarreled with his wife, in the evening the daughter brought the deuce - he had completely different in his head. And there is no guarantee that at work he will do what the trainings prescribed to him. In order to effectively protect the same metro, it is necessary to use a person (guard) as an instrument - in conjunction with frames, video surveillance and other technical means.

If there were no frames, believe me, there would be a lot of shooting at the subway

Many people ask: what, because the policeman must predict, see a potential criminal in the crowd? Yes, he will not do it! Who works in the police - people with secondary education, well, the police school have passed - what forecasts are there! Yes, put on a frame and an academician with a psychological education: well, he will look for half an hour, and then he will "get away". Therefore, the most important thing here is to understand that a guard is a tool that must be used correctly and for its intended purpose, and not so that "once you put on a form - let's guard." No. He stood on the frame for 15 minutes, and he could not physiologically, then it must be changed, sent to patrol, to be put on video surveillance for the next 15 minutes - he must make such a circle. Thus, we correctly use the physical capabilities of a person, and in addition, we create constant movement within the protected object. And the attacker will see this constant movement of security and abandon his intentions.

- But if you return to the framework: many have already noticed that you won’t miss all the subway passengers through them and you won’t watch it, like at the airport - so what is the meaning then?

- I will ask a counter question: when did you last hear the shooting in the subway?

“I haven't heard her at all.”

- I have not heard either. This is an indicator of the scope of the metal detector. Firstly, through them a person with weapons will not go in principle-he will leave him at home or in a car. Secondly, there are statistics on the transport police: over the past year, a lot of traumatic weapons have been identified. Sometimes a person simply forgets that a gun lies in his bag, and then they checked and did not let them go in the subway.

If there were no frames, believe me, there would be a lot of shooting in the subway. The frame is a very important thing, it reacts to weapons, but not to non -wound explosive devices: there are other tools for this.

- And what?

It is necessary to create a visible security system so that the frame, and a person, and video surveillance - everything works as a single mechanism

- This must be sought experimentally. Maybe some gas analyzers, although the metro is constant wind, and they can be ineffective. Maybe intellectual video surveillance systems that will identify dangerous people in behavior. But the most important thing is that you need to create a visible security system, so that both the frame, and the person, and video surveillance - everything works in a single complex, as a single mechanism, where the gears are constantly spinning. After all, the frame can squeak, the screen can show, but if a person plays the phone, then the mechanism stops.

- Alexander, and what, in your opinion, should you do first that Russian citizens feel more protected?

Special services need to be more open

- I believe that special services need to be more open. No one from them requires disclosing operational methods of work. But they must make citizens at least a little understanding the direction of work so that the presentation of its results takes place - without disclosing professional secrets. But for this we need to turn off the neglect of taxpayers - they say, we are doing our own business, leave me alone. As the practice of Israel, the USA and other countries shows, in the fight against terror, people's trust in law enforcement agencies and each other plays a huge role. And if we, judging by the polls of public opinion, citizens are more afraid of police officers than bandits - how is it? How to fight against terrorists in this state?

Alexander Kobrinsky

- Dmitry, please summarize your discussions about security in the subway and at other objects. As I understand it, do you think that you need to create an effective security system, where people would be used correctly, and the system of detecting hazardous substances?

- I would say, it is necessary not to create (the system is created), but its launch and control in real time. We already use it at our enterprise, there are control methods using modern technologies, instant messengers online, and this is quite effective, this allowed us to maintain complex objects.

For example, a power line - stretch a long power line, there is a lot of aluminum, but it is not frightened. Вот, допустим, тянут ее от Гатчины до Форносово 37 километров по болотам, по лесам. До нас заказчики пять лет не могли ее натянуть и сдать "РЖДстрою": только натянут, утром приходят – десять километров снято, сдано на цветной металл. На этом обогатилось целое поколение: там ведь, в Форносово, еще и тюрьма. А когда мы пришли со своей системой охраны (той, о которой я рассказывал), за год натянули ЛЭП, подключили и сдали.

Система организации охраны и безопасности одна – не важно, охраняешь ты ЛЭП, ларек или метрополитен. Ее и сейчас можно организовать на том, что уже есть, только нужно грамотно использовать эти элементы.

– Александр, как вы считаете, есть ли связь между конституционным правом граждан на жизнь и безопасностью, которую обеспечивает государство?

Право на жизнь – это, прежде всего, запрет государству произвольно лишать гражданина жизни

- Of course, there is. Право на жизнь – это, прежде всего, запрет государству произвольно лишать гражданина жизни. Я считаю, что право на жизнь должно быть обеспечено государством, для этого платятся налоги.

Правда, надо сказать честно, что полностью защититься от терроризма сегодня не может никто. Даже Израиль, первым столкнувшийся с этой проблемой, десятилетиями живущий под угрозой терроризма, не может ее решить. В связи с этим меня беспокоит, что моя страна действует в Сирии заодно с организацией " Хезболла ", которая везде признана террористической, никогда не скрывала этого, брала на себя ответственность за взрывы и другие теракты. Как это соотносится с тем принципом, о котором неоднократно говорил президент Путин – что не может быть террористов своих и чужих, плохих и хороших?

Власть на наших глазах прекращает всякий диалог с обществом

Я считаю, что власть на наших глазах прекращает всякий диалог с обществом. Нет разговора, объяснений, а они должны быть, причем не с какой-то отобранной Федеральной службой охраны ткачихой, задающей вопрос, который ей дали заранее, а с экспертами, специалистами, иногда задающими неприятные вопросы – и на них надо отвечать.

Депутат петербургского Законодательного собрания Александр Кобринский считает: поскольку главная задача террористов – не столько убить людей, сколько запугать их, в ответ на их действия надо усиливать профессионализм спецслужб, которые должны заниматься не студентами и школьниками, выходящими на митинги, а именно террористами – внедряясь в их сообщества и арестовывая их до того, как они совершат теракты. А если вместо этого ответом на теракты будут массовые проверки и ограничения прав граждан, это будет означать, что террористы добились своего – лишили людей нормальной жизни.